The Instigator
sidewinder
Pro (for)
Losing
4 Points
The Contender
Hanspete
Con (against)
Winning
9 Points

The Affordable Health Care Act

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Hanspete
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/12/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 674 times Debate No: 66938
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (2)

 

sidewinder

Pro

I'll be arguing on how the scariest word in American polotics, the Afordable Health Care Act, otherwise known as Obama Care, is a step in the righ direction for insuring the 47 million people who did not have health care before the law. People that paln to accepted this debate I have hope you somewhat understand what the Affordable healthcare act does as well as your vocabulary that you use to describe it, aka if you call Obama care communist I will be quite sad. However, if a moderately educated person is interested on having a debate on the merits and future additions to the health care law I would be happy to entertain you. for those who are against Obama care I would ask that you provide a better solution to healthcare on how you think it should work.
P.S a website not working does not mean that the law does not work

Round 1 is for acceptance only
Hanspete

Con

Okay I accept the debate, good luck to my opponent, to assure my opponent I do understand the ACA fairly well, so I can argue it well enough. I will also provide a better option to the ACA as requested.
Debate Round No. 1
sidewinder

Pro

So I think we should start of are discussion on what exactly the affordable healthcare act is and its three vital components

The first is the mandate for people to give people health insurance to all of the 47 million Americans that did not have healthcare when obamacare is passed. This was for a variety of reasons whether unemployed, not working for a big company to expensive or preexisting conditions. This is not the government forcing people to take government health insurance it is setting up a standardized market for people to get health insurance. This I cannot emphasis more does not effect all Americans in fact it only effects one third of them. However, the mandate that insurance companies have to take everyone could lead to everyone only getting healthcare when they were sick thus driving up premiums. To avoid this the government instituted a tax that takes 1% of your income if you do not get health insurance. This stops people from taking advatage of obamacare and using healthcare only when their sick.However if you put a economic penalty to people who don't want health insurance you inevitably get people who cannot afford insurance. This is when the government offers subsides to people who can't afford health insurance.

Thus to put it simply obamacare is a three legged stool with the uninsured American being held up by these legs

1. Government mandated health insurance everybody needs to get health insurance from a provider whether public or private (5/6 of Americans already have health insurance so their not effected)

2. Tax of 1% of your income to prevent people from taking advantage of obamacare's mandate that forces private companies to take all people no matter the preexisting condition.

3. Government subsides to help poor people who cannot afford health insurance

https://www.youtube.com... (This is a credible source its from a doctor)

In my opinion this is a good start to a American healthcare reform but I believe we must become more like Europe in order to thrive into the future. You may be scared of socialism but unless the police department, roads, and social security is evil you already have had experience with socialism. In my opinion the reason that healthcare costs are so high is because in the case of medical expenses capitalism does not work ( by the way I'm normally a hue fan of capitalism). This is because it is impossible to put a value on your life thus you will pay through the nose to get it. Because of or governments lack of intervention we pay twice as much in healthcare taxes in comparison to European countries and why operations can be 10 and even 20 times more expensive in America. In Europe the government haggles with private companies to get the lowest price for their citizens. This is not done in America and allows healthcare providers to force us to pay exorbitant rates to give us healthcare. However, by allowing all Americans to get healthcare we are taking a step toward the solution but we still have a long way to go.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org...

http://www.nytimes.com...

I invite you to make your case on to why obamacare is bad as well as solutions to the healthcare crisis in the United States good luck
Hanspete

Con

I am glad we can start the debate this way:

I would like to start by saying the idea behind Obamacare was to insure uninsured Americans, now many more than before are uninsured due to Obamacare. [1] The actual number of people signed up is 2.5 million. [2] This is a significantly less amount than the 8 million we were told about. An average increase in premiums is now at 41% [3] Now that I have laid out the basic disadvantages I will argue the merits of the government forcing us to buy health insurance. I would like to begin by responding to Pro's claim that "this only affects one-third of the Americans" wrong this is impacting a lot of people, everyone I know has seen an average increase in health care premiums by $600, I can not prove the individual numbers I grant that but I ask you to take me at my word and I will take you at yours (for the Youtube video). For the government to penalize people for not buying government run health insurance is a load of bull. No one should be able to tell us what we should and should not do and what we should and should not buy, this prevents us from expressing our freedom of choice in our own homes. I wish to ask my opponent a question if he is willing to respond to it, how is penalizing people who can't afford health insurance going to make it easier for them to buy insurance if their premiums are increasing astronomically?

1. Government does not need nor should force us to buy anything, this is a violation of our right of free speech in the form of forcing us to do something against our will. This does not mean that the old system was good, but this is far worse, because it bankrupts companies and hands 1/6th of the American Economy over to the Government.

2. Don't penalize people for not doing something you want them to, again a violation of the right to choose. Do not mandate companies to pay solely for this expensive health care, it will bankrupt them. [4]

3. Charities should help the poor afford health care, or take care of them when they can. Government should be giving no hand-outs, only hand-ups.

Now in my opinion the best way to start a good Healthcare system is too revolutionize it, because none of the government run systems in Europe are working, the UK being the most notorious. [5] Let the Capitalist in America create and test revolutionary plans to see which resonates best among the American along with which is the most affordable, and which offers the best coverage. I fear Socialism greatly as I see it as a threat to my right to choose to do whatever I want without being told by big brother what I can and cannot do, can and cannot say, buy and cannot buy, eat and cannot eat, this is what I fear most, them running my live and restricting my God given rights as a human being, rights that communist and socialist countries are notorious for violating. Now that I have finished my mini-rant, back on topic shall we? :D I do not agree with placing a price on a human life, nor will I deny that that has happened but as what is happening in the UK with people being left to die in their "revolutionary system". (Re-reference source 5). The reasoning that healthcare is so much more expensive is for several reasons. One, we have the best healthcare system on earth. Two, we are constantly revolutionising it with the advancement of technology and antidotes which are hard to make, and often in high demand so the law of supply and demand fills in here. Three, we are the richest country on earth, we can afford a lot more than any other country on the face of this earth. And four no one ever said life was fair, life isn't fair we will all have misfortunes and will get a big bill for it, the right course of action, get over it, it is unfortunate to say the least, however we have the money to afford it.

Alright now i'll cut through everything and present my plan. First gut everything, not all at once, but in large amounts over 10-20 years. Second privatize it, get the government out of my pants and back in Washington. Three, mandate a minimum expectation that is not too egregious and don't mandate that companies have to provide healthcare for all workers, let the workers choose if they want to take the money out of their salary to pay for it, like the public sector unions now have to do in Wisconsin. Overhaul the funding system and then redistribute the funding among the states to allow them to use the funding where they need it the most. Finally Four, repeal the ACA seeing as it is so unaffordable. [6] These are only first steps to reforming the Healthcare system, seeing as how it was a mess and is now far worse. It will be up to future presidents to effectively implement these things in order to save a breaking healthcare system. And with that I rest my current case and look forward to another round.

[1] http://dailycaller.com...
[2] http://www.usatoday.com...
[3] http://www.forbes.com...
[4] http://americanactionforum.org...
[5] http://www.forbes.com...
[6] http://www.politifact.com...
Debate Round No. 2
sidewinder

Pro

Okay I want to touch on a few of your points and clarify and or offer rebuttals
1.Obama Care has led to people loosing insurance and only has 2 million subscribers
After looking at your source I found no sources that concerned with your claim and instead found that if obamacare was repealed 10.3 million Americans could loose their health insurance so unless you find a source as credible as politifact on politics I will assume that your statement is incorrect. Next your news report as far as I can see is incorrect because according to a website I visited enrollment is at 15 million

http://www.politifact.com...

http://obamacarefacts.com...

2.Premiums are increasing
You are correct that premiums are increasing but all experts point to this trend merely being a continuation of American premium hikes because premiums have gone up but they have remained consistent with the normal increases in premiums before obamacare and in may cases have gone down from the average increase in rate hikes

http://www.politifact.com...

3. Obamacare effects a lot of people
No it does not because Obamacare only provides health insurance to 1/6 of Americans not 1/3 as you said I did but you are correct in saying that this covers a lot of Americans because 57 million people is quite a lot. I would also ask for a source for the numbers you are getting on premiums
(here is a source on the doctor in the YouTube video http://theincidentaleconomist.com...)

4. Government shouldn't be able to penalize you for not having health insurance
I can see how this might upset you but the government already mandates you to get different types of coverage. For instance in Massachusetts, the state I live in, you need to get health insurance before you drive. In my opinion a government mandate that everyone needs to get health insurance is important because it stops buyer discrimination for insurance companies that used to not insure people that had preexisting conditions and it helps Americans pay for outrageous healthcare expenses that America has. the only way to stop people from manipulating this system by only getting health insurance when your sick would be to add a economic penalty to stop people from only buying healthcare when they are sick. So unless you think that people with preexisting conditions shouldn't have medicare the economic penalty is the only way to enforce this system.

5. The government is taking over healthcare and socialism is scary
No the government is not taking over health care obamacare is a standardized healthcare market that uses private insurance companies to cover Americans. The only way that obamacare effects these companies is by forcing the to take people who have preexisting conditions and by providing subsides to people who cannot afford healthcare. So I say again this is not the government taking over healthcare they are merely regulating it.

6.how is penalizing people who can't afford health insurance going to make it easier for them to buy insurance if their premiums are increasing astronomically?

For people ha cannot afford health insurance the government offers subsidies to those who cannot afford it. This is one of the most basic tenants of the law. Also as said previously healthcare premium rates are going up at levels comparable to healthcare increases before obamacare. That is how buying healthcare is easier under obamacare.

7. Companies shouldn't need to provide health insurance
Businesses for a long time now have been forced to give people health insurance. Obamacare in its relation to company insurance is the minutia like providing contraceptives for women. So unless businesses have secretly been hiding that the were bankrupt hay are not because businesses already had to provide healthcare

http://obamacarefacts.com...

8. this is a violation of our right of free speech in the form of forcing us to do something against our will
the government can do that just as they can draft you into the military, force you to get car insurance, search you at airports, tax you, and many other actions that you have no control over. So unless you are implying that fines and taxes are unconstitutional oabamacare is constitutional

9. Charities should help the poor afford health care, or take care of them when they can. Government should be giving no hand-outs, only hand-ups.
Please tell me of any charities that offer free surgeries and or expensive and complex medical surgery. If so I'm impressed but their are none that I'm aware of. Also what on earth is a hand up because I quite honestly have no clue what that is. And Americas record on using charity for government crisis's have not worked. For instance in he great depression President Hoover tried to address the great depression with charity this failed utterly.

10.Europe is bad so lets not copy them
Europe often has medical procedures that cot 10 to 20 times less than that in America while spending less in taxes on medicare. so unless you want medicare to be expensive I would aspire to be more like Europe.

http://www.nytimes.com...;

http://www.commonwealthfund.org...

(Please read these sources they explain a lot)

11. Britain has bad health insurances
Yes it does when I say Europe I do not mean every country in Europe to be more specific I think Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Spain have better healthcare systems due to lower costs.

12. we have the best healthcare system on earth
No we do not unless of course you think America should have medicine be 20 times more expensive in America because in is America for instance lipitor in New Zeland costs 6 dollars in the US its 124 dollars

http://www.nytimes.com...;

13. Obamacare costs a lot
I'e already addressed this issue but the source you use for your argument I find quite ironic because the politifact quote you used actual says that a increase in medicare prices due o obamacare is mostly false. Please read it if you don't believe me.

http://www.politifact.com...

14. Your plan for medicare
Your plan has so many problems but the most overarching problem is that you think capitalism can fix medicare it cannot. I will now argue this points using capitalism. I have a question that is capitalism cause for me its trading money to gain a commodity with the value of the commodity dictated by the supply and demand. Healthcare is the worlds greatest demand because almost no one wants to die. Because the commodity of not dying is so valuable and you can't go around and seek competition on prices you with pay what you think your life is worth. And seeing as life is quite a valuable commodity people pay through the nose to get it. Thus your solution would not work on the premise of the free market.

In my opinion the only way to fix medicare is to have the government act as the negotiator for American medical patients in order to allow capitalism to work because the commodity system on life would be replaced by a desire to get the worlds biggest contract for medical care and would thus lower prices competitive to get patients. This is the solution that I see for medicare. However I believe that obamacare is a step in the right direction for America.
Hanspete

Con

Oh my how silly of me, I put up the wrong source, well nothing can be done about that now. Let me say, what do you mean by "I found no sources that concerned with your claim"? Obviously yes I made a mistake in posting a source, however the other ones are fine. Now onto my news report, yes it is correct, how? Because Gruber said that enrolment has been significantly bloated by the federal government. [1]

1. Premium Increases: I will not dispute the fact that yes some premium increases can be attributed to normal increases, I will however dispute the points that one, they are solely because of normal increases and two that obamacare has cause premiums to go down, in some respects.
a. Premiums are increasing, as I pointed out before the average increase in premiums is 41%, this cannot be attributed solely to normal increases, seeing as how is it an astronomical amount. Premiums are increasing now! It may not be as bad for everyone but in almost every instance the increase is in the double-digits per year. [2]
b. Premiums are not going down. [3] As it is, the raw data shows the average increase in premiums for 2015 will be about 15%, admittedly not as high of a percentage increase, however that totals to be around an extra $400 for a medium income family, such as my own on top of an already $600 dollar increase from this year.

2. Obamacare does affect a lot of people: 57 million as you pointed out is a lot, but way more americans are being affected than just the ones without health insurance and those with crappy health insurance. [4] Almost every American will be affected, again look at my source in the previous argument that puts a premium increase at an average of 41% per household.

3. Government Shouldn't be able to penalize you for not having health insurance: Okay I see where you are coming from with the mandates, however that is up to the state to decide what coverage should be mandated for certain instances, for instance here in Wisconsin I am about to get my license (I am glad you used that reference it is a good one), state law doesn't mandate I get health insurance, but that I get an expansion of around 5% in my life insurance (as set out by my parents). I disagree with your point that it stops all discrimination merely on the basis that we can never fully solve that issue, we can improve on it as we have, but there will always be discrimination. This however is not the only way to stop people from manipulating the system, this is the one part where I believe government should overreach a bit. I think it is up to the HHS worker to insure that the individual applying for reduce premiums or health insurance payments truly needs them, that is a fault in our system (not a fault in our stars :D). I don't disagree that people with preexisting conditions should be getting health insurance, however they way you shouldn't do that is mandate that everyone has to buy health insurance, that is not fair to those who don't want it or know they can't afford it so take the risks, it makes them pay for something they don't necessarily want or need (like Congress for example :D).

4. The government is taking over health care and socialism is scary
Yes the government is taking over health care, obamacare is a government run website using federal or state exchange plans to cover Americans, while admittedly providing some other insurance options, but they are more expensive. I say this is a government takeover of the health care system, because the extra competition with the increased dollars of senior and not the young and healthy is not going to be enough to sustain the companies, leaving government the only insurance provider. [5]

5. Government penalizing people for not buying something they are told the must buy or else, is flat out wrong: For people who cannot afford health insurance well sorry we are giving you more expensive plans than ever before and increasing your premiums, you tell me what is so appealing about that being forced to buy something, oh well it's more expensive than we anticipated, then being told oh sorry about that massive increase in premiums it wasn't our fault.

6. Companies shouldn't provide health insurance: I am aware business have been forced to provide health insurance, however the amount of money it requires increase proportionally. [6] And then I am not sure what point you are trying to make in that next sentence unless I missed something.

7. This is a violation of our rights: This is just another violation of our rights adding onto that nice list you compiled with the exception of the draft (which every good american should be willing to say yes I will serve my country), and to a very very very certain extent taxing. I am not implying that fines and taxes are unconstitutional, what I am saying is that forcing someone to buy something and then saying if you don't do what we want we will be finding you is now a legal form of blackmail.

8. Charities should help the poor: Okay in this either you completely missed my point or I just didn't make it clear enough, regardless. Please tell me where I said that charities should be providing free surgeries or provide complex medical assistance, I never said that, what I said is that charities should help provide the monetary amount necessary for a person to go to the doctor and get done what needs to get done. And let's keep in mind that the great depression was back in the 1930's and that travel wasn't so easy, nowadays since we have better roads and quicker responses from charities, such as the Red Cross and the Salvation Army, charities can help the individual far easier than they once could.

9. Europe is bad so lets no copy them: Europe's Healthcare system is in ruins, yeah it may be less expensive, but lets keep in mind they have less people to deal with so naturally prices would be significantly less. I would say you can aspire to be like Europe but it's not a good idea. [7], [8], [9].

10. We do have the best healthcare system on earth: What other country on earth can boast having one of the most revolutionary systems on earth, so advanced we have a partial remedy for ebola, a month after it became a health concern, treatments, yes expensive but so effective that they are world renowned for saving lives, and a lot of them.

11. Okay I am glad and the reason Switzerland has such a phenomenal system is why? Because it is privatized. (Please look at source 9 as it discusses that).

12. Obamacare costs a lot: Yeah okay I have no clue what I was thinking when I put that source on (I am certain I was half asleep, not too sure that I was even thinking! :D). But obamacare costs a fortune. [10], [11], [12]

13. My plan for Medicare: Well of course my plan has problems, not many but it does, why? Because no plan is perfect. You are correct Healthcare is the worlds greatest demand not to prevent death, but to slow it. The commodity of dying as you correctly pointed out is very valuable. As said the commodity of not dying is so valuable that it has no price is fundamentally a correct statement, however the price required to be there to see your grandchildren is (and I don't like that, but i'll live with it). So yes my plan would fundamentally work in a capitalist free market premise. Your opinion on how to fix medicare has caused more problems in europe than it has solved, the solution you see for medicare although idealistically is something we should look to achieve it is realistically not possible, Obamacare is a mistake because it puts my health in the hands of an already incompetent system not known for being honest. That is a scary thought on which I think my life would not be worth putting. I look forward to our next round and I will respond quicker due to Christmas break, school has kept me from responding as soon as i'd like.

[1] http://www.c-span.org... (I am aware this video is 4 hours, I will try to find the clip I am looking for and tell you where to look, and please don't waste time watching the whole thing it is incredibly boring).
[2] http://townhall.com...
[3] http://www.nytimes.com...
[4] http://dailysignal.com...
[5] http://spectator.org...
[6] http://www.nytimes.com...
[7] http://www.wsj.com...
[8] http://blog.pharmexec.com...
[9] http://www.heritage.org...
[10] http://cnsnews.com...
[11] http://rt.com...
[12] http://www.washingtonexaminer.com... (I personally find this one to be very ammusing.)
Debate Round No. 3
sidewinder

Pro

I am unfortunately unable to continue this debate so I hope we can continue this debate latter.
Hanspete

Con

That is fine by me I hope the voters will not penalize you for that, but vote on our arguments as they stand, Have a Merry Christmas.
Debate Round No. 4
sidewinder

Pro

sidewinder forfeited this round.
Hanspete

Con

So I would just like to finish this debate by thanking my opponent for what we did argue, and I am disappointed that he had to forfeit. Now, I want to say that the scariest problem that faces the nation right now is the detrimental effects of Obamacare, average increases in premiums of 41%, $1000 more in premiums over the next two years for medium income families that are already struggling enough as it is, fines for people who don't want to get health insurance, it is a lose lose situation for these families, paying heavy costs for health insurance that hardly covers anything, or fines that are just as bad for choosing not to get crappy health insurance. If we want to talk about being fair then we need to acknowledge how unfair this law is to poor and working class people, a burden not anything helpful. That is the problem with this law, that is why we need to repeal and replace, that is the best solution to this problem, otherwise we could be the country that produces another Hitler Germany, as it started with government controlled healthcare.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by TheChristian 1 year ago
TheChristian
Im REALLY biased towards con, for more than one reason!
Posted by Vajrasattva-LeRoy 1 year ago
Vajrasattva-LeRoy
Obamacare won't work, even if there was $ for it, which there isn't.
Obamacare, Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid, etc. , were set up in such a way not to work.
They were all UNFUNDED when they started.

The so-called "national debt" Alone is Over $18 TRILLION, & Going Up.
They're not only BANKRUPT, but Way In The Red.
They Have Virtually ZERO $ for anything whatsoever.
Politicians all over the world are having Very Severe Budget Problems.
Posted by cheyennebodie 1 year ago
cheyennebodie
What is scary is government controlling 1/6 of our economy.They will cause massive problems in our system, blame the wealthy to get more money , then steal so much that it will cause more unemployment, and dependency on THEM. That should keep them in power for the forseeable future. Most politicians, mainly democrats, could cars less about the state of our country as long as they are in charge.
Posted by 2PartyFarce 1 year ago
2PartyFarce
Good luck! For the most part, I agree with you. However, the ACA has some glaring flaws.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by MattStPaul 1 year ago
MattStPaul
sidewinderHanspeteTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: 1. Both had fine conduct. 2. Both used persuasive arguments 3. Both used reliable sources. For Pro: sidewinder is passionate and sincerely concerned with his side of the debate. That was evident and clear. I appreciated the clear points and the effort made to present reliable arguments, facts, & sources. For Con: I agreed with his points before and after; admittedly, I was leaning Con's way prior to reading. While I remained open to Pro's points, I found myself agreeing more often with Con. There were several good arguments against obamacare: privatization, efficient American system (ebola example), lack of efficient European model, violation of a free people's rights; plus, Con rose to the challenge when asked to present solutions (which is a difficult task). He suggested several: privatizing, capitalist's competition, charity, state's choice, etc. Seeing problems is the easy part. Offering solutions is MUCH more difficult. Good job to both. And congrats to Con. Good lu
Vote Placed by Lexus 1 year ago
Lexus
sidewinderHanspeteTied
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Total points awarded:42 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro gracefully forfeited, so conduct goes to him. Con, pl0x don't use sources that have the word forum in them, but overall con had better sources. Pro had better, more sound, arguments, so they get arguments, though I do disagree with him.