The Instigator
ishallannoyyo
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
RyuuKyuzo
Con (against)
Winning
27 Points

The Ancient Astronomy Theory is Correct

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
RyuuKyuzo
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/7/2012 Category: Science
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,369 times Debate No: 27945
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (8)
Votes (5)

 

ishallannoyyo

Pro

My opponent posted a comment in a debate which I have previously done of this same topic, so I will gladly challenge him to the topic.

I will be just copy-pasting my arguments from that debate (it was FF'ed) so R2 will go pretty quick.

R1 for acceptance, we will just use the same definitions from that previous debate, all rules will remain the same.

I look forward to a great debate!
RyuuKyuzo

Con

I accept. As con, I will be negating the resolution.

Just incase anyone wants to know the specific rules/ definitions we are going by here, this is the link to the last debate >> http://debate.org...;
Debate Round No. 1
ishallannoyyo

Pro

Throughout history there is clear examples that Aliens have visited Earth before. These examples cannot be simply written off as “coincidence” or “human intelligence.”

C1: The Nazca Lines
Located in Peru’s Nazca desert, there are thousands of lines that measure more than hundreds of feet. Standing on Earth, the lines seem to make no pattern. However, when you fly over Nazca you see that all the lines actually make animal shapes.



Monkey

Now, why would ancient Peruvians want to make patterns that can only be seen from the sky? Furthermore, the mountain tops in the Nazca desert have actually been paved smooth. When you look at it from the sky, it looks exactly like a runway. Why would the Peruvians want to smooth out a mountain? Furthermore, where did the rubble go? They destroyed the top of mountains, yet there is no rubble. These are only some of the mysterious that surround the lines at Nazca. Clearly, the lines and the runway were designed for something that flew, yet in the ancient times nothing could fly.


C2: The Pyramids of Giza and Teotihuacan
The grand pyramid of Giza was one of the seven ancient wonders of the world. Yet there are many oddities with the pyramid. Firstly, the Pyramid of Giza is EXACTLY at the intersection of the equator and the prime meridian, longitude and latitude. Furthermore, all four sides of the pyramids face exactly in cardinal North, South, East, and West, though compasses did not exist in Egypt at the time. Coincidence?
It is described that the Pyramid of Giza was built in 10 – 20 years. [1] Furthermore, the stones that compose the pyramids each weigh roughly two tons and over 2.3 million stones were used. [2] How could humans possibly lift two ton blocks? Yet the pyramids is an engineering marvel and it is estimated that if we were to recreate the pyramids today we would take decades to recreate it. How is it possible that ancient civilizations built the pyramids in 20 years, dragging over 2.3 million two ton blocks for MILES?? Clearly, all the anomalies with the pyramids show that aliens have given us some form of knowledge and technology to help us build the pyramids.
Furthermore, the sun pyramid in Teotihuacan, on the opposite side of the globe share similar anomalies. The sun pyramid has almost the exact same perimeter of the great pyramid of giza [3]. Also, there are three great pyramids that are aligned in a line. There are two pyramids (sun and moon) in Teotihuacan that are aligned in the same degree if there was a third pyramid between the two. Plus, each side of the sun and moon pyramids are aligned to a planet in the solar system. Coincidence? I don’t think so.




C3: References in Writing
In the bible, the book of Ezekiel clearly describes Ezekiel meeting the “gods” that came to him in flying metal machines spewing fire, smoke, and emitting loud noises. Ezekiel is taken by the gods and given knowledge, such as writing. Is it possible that the “gods” were actually spaceships from space?
Furthermore, Pacal’s sarcophagus in Palenque clearly depict Pacal “descending” to the underworld. However, it actually looks like he is in a spaceship. He is sitting in a seat, a mouthpiece in his mouth, his hands fiddling with controls, and an engine behind him. It looks strikingly similar to modern spaceships.


The Sanskrit epics which were in India describe mythical flying machines called vimanas. Something was on the vimanas and these vimanas frequently engaged in pitched battles in the sky.
The Sanskrit epics which were in India describe mythical flying machines called vimanas. Something was on the vimanas and these vimanas frequently engaged in pitched battles in the sky.

But the most striking written evidence is the Mayans. Where did they mayans get all their advanced astronomical and mathematical knowledge? Their calendar was so mathematically correct that it ends on the exact same day that the centre of the galaxy, the sun, and the earth align (December 21, 2012). Furthermore, they backdated their calenders to the BCE’s, to the exact day that archaeologists believe that a major cataclysmic event occurred. Their knowledge of astronomy was unparalleled, and they tracked all the planets and stars. But where did this knowledge come from? It’s amazing that an ancient civilization could have this knowledge. The Mayan Popol Vuh says “Men came from the stars, knowing everything, and they examined the four corners of the sky and Earth’s round surface.” How did the Mayans know the Earth was round? Furthermore, the Chilam Balam states “Beings descended from the sky in flying vessels...white men in flying rings, who can touch the sky.” [4]

Clearly, all these “coincidences” cannot be dismissed. How many are coincidences? The odds are against us. Ancient humans couldn’t possibly have been this intelligent with knowledge that we have only recently discovered. Clearly, they were given knowledge and tools by aliens. I look forward to my opponent’s responses!

SOURCES:
1. http://en.wikipedia.org......
2. http://www.outerworlds.com......
3. http://www.world-mysteries.com......


RyuuKyuzo

Con

C1: The Nazca Lines

Pro's argument for C1 can be broken down into 2 main points.

a) Why would the Peruvians do it (if not for alien run-ways)?
b) Where is all the rubble you would expect from a smoothed-off mountain?

I will be responding to these arguments in this order.

a) First thing to point out is that simply because we don't know why the Peruvians would make such lines does not mean that aliens did it. That is jumping to conclusions. Furthermore, the "alien runway" hypothesis doesn't actually explain anything. Why make a run-way in the shape of a monkey? How could that possibly help with landing a spacecraft? Also, some of these lines are several miles long (with several over 6 miles, up to 15 miles long) [1]. Even the most inefficient of human-made aircrafts require only about 1 mile of runway [2]. Does Pro really expect us to believe that advanced inter-galactic alien aircrafts required 6-15+ times the amount of runway space as our aircrafts? -- In the shape of animals no less?

b) It is true that there is no rubble underneath the Nazca lines, but we wouldn't expect their to be any, because the Nazca lines are NOT located on top of a mountain. They are located on top of a plateau;

"The Nazca Lines /ˈnæzkə/ are a series of ancient geoglyphs located in the Nazca Desert in southern Peru. They were designated as a UNESCO World Heritage Site in 1994. The high, arid plateau stretches more than 80 kilometres (50 mi) between the towns of Nazca and Palpa on the Pampas de Jumana about 400 km south of Lima." [3]

Plateaus are a lot like mountains, except they have naturally formed flat tops, and the way they form is very well known [4]. In fact, 45% of the earth's surface is covered in plateaus [5]. Why does no-one ask where all the rubble from these plateaus went?

C2: The Pyramids of Giza and Teotihuacan

Pro's arguments:
a) TGPOG is exactly at the intersection between the equator and the prime-meridian
b) Every face lines up w/ cardinal North, East, West, and South (and the Egyptians didn't have compasses)
c) Short build time (10-20 years)
d) Millions of heavy blocks that they couldn't move
e) The sun pyramid has almost the same perimeter, despite being on the other side of the planet
f) The 3 great pyramids are in a line at the same angle the sun and moon pyramids would be in if there was a 3rd pyramid
g) Both the sun and the moon pyramids are in line with a planet

There's a lot to go through here, but before I start it should be noted that Pro has only provided sources for arguments "c", "d" and "e". that means "a", "b", "f" and "g" are immediately dismissible as they are unsupported at this point in the debate.

a) The Prime-Meridian is an imaginary line created in 1884, almost 4.5 thousand years after TGPOG was built [6]. Also, neither the prime-meridian, nor the equator even pass through Egypt, let alone the pyramids [8][7].

b) Anyone with the ability to notice that the sun rises in the East and sets in the west can line up an object with the cardinals. No aliens needed.

c) It took 20 years, but this isn't unreasonable as I will show.

d) 85% of the pyramids stones where made of soft sand-stone which was cut on-site. The larger stones were dug out of the ground, lifted with levers onto a sled, dragged to a boat, and shipped via the Nile [9].

e) It's true that these two pyramids have a very close perimeter, but this isn't all that spectacular. Consider that TGPOG is about 2x as tall as the Sun pyramid [10][11]. Furthermore, most of the worlds major pyramids have very similar perimeters [12]. Did aliens go around earth telling everyone which perimeter to shoot for, but leave out the base dimensions and height? Why? And what evidence is there of this?

f) The Pyramid of the sun is about 4km away from the pyramid of the moon [13]. Khufu is about 3/4 of a mile from Menkaure [14]. Your picture has been doctored to make it look like the pyramids line up in a significant way, when really all you've done is draw a line through the pyramids and claimed they line up the same way. You can do that with literally any 2 objects if you pay no attention to distance.

g) Which ones? And how is that possible given that where the other planets are located relative to the Earth constantly changes given that each planet is in constant motion along several axes? And how does this prove aliens where involved? -- that is to ask, of what possible use could this be to aliens?

C3: References in Writing

a) Ezekiel describes meeting gods and seeing flying metal machines
b) Pacal looks like he's in a space ship
c) Indian descriptions of Vimanas (flying machines)
d) Mayan knowledge of astronomy

This time, there are no sources given whatsoever. Pro noted a fourth citation, but he never actually added it.

a) No source. I can't verify or falsify this yet.

b) This image does not resemble modern day space ships at all, but even if it did, wouldn't alien ships look much more advanced than our own? If that's a seat, it's the least ergonomically designed seat I've ever seen in my life (no back support a all?). His hands aren't actually touching anything, his mouth is actually empty and if you know anything about engines, you'll know that there's nothing in this picture that even resembles an engine. The truth is, this is a very common depiction in Mayan mythology. This image was made on a sarcophagus lid for a reason, and that reason is because it depicts Pacal's transition to the after life. All the images on the lid are traditional Mayan symbolism for this process [15]

c) The Vimanas were the palaces of the Gods. They could fly, but they flew via flying horse-drawn chariots [16]-- an odd method for aliens to use. It's much more likely that this is mere mythology, not an alien encounter.

d) This is the point that pro forgot to add his citation for, so I'll hold off on this one until next round as well.

Conclusion

Basically every single point made by Pro is falsified by just a little fact-checking. At this point, there is no compelling evidence for Ancient Astronaut Theory and therefore the resolution is negated.

1. http://peru-facts.co.uk...
2. http://planes.findthebest.com...
3. http://en.wikipedia.org...
4. http://science.nationalgeographic.com...
5. http://hassam.hubpages.com...
6. http://en.wikipedia.org...
7. http://abagond.files.wordpress.com...
8. http://toolserver.org...
9. [video]
10. http://en.wikipedia.org...
11. http://en.wikipedia.org...
12. http://en.wikipedia.org...
13. https://maps.google.ca...
14. https://maps.google.ca...
15. http://www.youtube.com...
16. http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
ishallannoyyo

Pro

I thank my opponent of a speedy response. This is shaping up to be quite a debate! Before I move on to my rebuttal, I must apologize profusely for being unclear with some of my facts and some of them even being wrong (I was doing it from memory from Erich Von Daniken’s documentary on YouTube). All of those facts will be rectified.

REBUTTALS

C1: THE NAZCA LINES

Simply because we don’t know why the Peruvians would make such lines does not mean that aliens did it.

Forgive me for being unclear, I am not suggesting that aliens created the lines, I am suggesting that the ancient Peruvians built the lines FOR the aliens. Please explain then why these patterns can ONLY be seen from the sky and why they would smooth down the tops of the surrounding hills to form runways?

Furthermore, the “alien runway” hypothesis doesn’t actually explain anything. Why make a run-way in the shape of a monkey?

I am deeply sorry for not being clear. The monkey was actually only one of many designs that were made in the earth, not the actual runways. I had a picture of the runways, but it wouldn’t upload as I explained in the comments. It still refuses to upload so the picture can be found in SOURCE 2. The monkey was only one of 70 animal designs [1]. It is speculated that these designs guided the aliens to the runways [3].

Does Pro really expect us to believe that advanced inter-galactic alien aircrafts required 6 – 15+ times the amount of runway space as our aircrafts?

We have differing facts on this, the largest of the designs measured over 660 feet across which is nowhere near a mile [1]. Furthermore, I am not here to tell you why these crafts required more runway (though your facts may be incorrect), I’m here to tell you that these aliens exist, so this is rather irrelevant.

It is true that there is no rubble underneath the Nazca lines, but we wouldn’t expect there to be any because the Nazca lines are NOT located on top of a mountain.

My point was misinterpreted, the Nazca lines isn’t the runway. The rubble I was talking about was referring to the runways which are located on mountains nearby. Just looking at the picture (SOURCE 2, sorry for the inconvenience), it is clear that one mountain’s top has been smoothed off to create what resembles a runway. Looking at the nearby mountains, they still have their tops. Where did the smoothed rubble from the top of the mountains go? Nothing just disappears.

The refutation to my point has been refuted, the Nazca Line Point still stands.

C2: THE PYRAMIDS OF GIZA AND TEOTIHUACAN

The Prime Meridian is an imaginary line created in 1884, almost 4.5 thousand years after TGPOG was built.

My mistake, this was a fact error on my part. I was thinking of the most famous latitude/longitude lines. TGPOG doesn’t go through the equator and prime meridian, but rather

Anyone with the ability to notice that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West can line up an object with the cardinals.

The Egyptians knew about true north [1]? Unlikely.

It took 20 years, but this isn’t unreasonable as I will show.

This has not been shown, I invite my opponent to tell us about how ancient humans dragged millions of ton-block stones up mile long ramps, fitted them so perfectly a knife can’t go between them, and did all the ornate marble works within the pyramid in ONLY 20 years.

85% if the pyramids stones were made of soft stand-stone which was cut on site. The larget stones were dug out of the ground, lifted with levers onto a sled, dragged to a boad, and shipped via the Nile.

Once again our facts differ. The Pyramid of Giza was composed of roughly 2.3 million limestone blocks which came from nearby quarries, not cut on site. The largest stone weighed 25 – 80 tonnes and was transported to TGPOG from Aswan, which was 500 miles away. It is believed that 5.5 million tonnes of limestone, 8000 tonnes of granite (all coming from Aswan) and 500 000 tons of mortar were used in the construction of TGPOG. [4] All of this between 10-20 years? And I’ve only touched on the major issues, I haven’t even mentioned that the Egyptians somehow got the perimeter to height ration to be almost EXACTLY 2pi.

Furthermore, most of the worlds major pyramids have very similar perimeters.

This isn’t spectacular? These cultures have never contacted each other, but somehow their structures are the same perimeter? Possibly the aliens gave this pyramid building knowledge to these civilizations.

Your picture has been doctored to make it look like the pyramids line up in a significant way, when really all you’ve done is draw a line through the pyramids and claimed they line up the same way. You can do that with literally any 2 objects if you pay no attention to distance.

Well I click on the link, it just brings me to Google maps. Could you please elaborate on how you came up with these numbers?

Which ones? And how is that possible given that where the other planets are located relative to the Earth constantly changes given that each planet is in constant motion along several axises?

My mistake, this was an incorrect fact from the Ancient Astronomy Theory YouTube Videos, parts 1- 9. However, many of the degree of alignments in Teotihuacan in general line up to 15.5 degrees. [4] The city is 15.5 degrees off from the cardinal directions. The Street of the Dead funs from 15.5 degrees east of north to 15.5 degrees west of south. The pyramid of the sun is 15.5 degrees north of west, need I go on? This 15.5 degree alignment puts the Pyramid of the Sun and Moon in line with the Sun on August 13th. [4]

My arguments regarding the two pyramids still stand.

C3: REFERENCES IN WRITING

No source. I can’t verify or falsify this yet.

The Book of Ezekiel, Bible, Chapter 1.

This image does not resemble modern space ships at all, but even if it did, wouldn’t alien ships look much more advanced than our own?

Assumption. The ergonomics of the spaceship don’t matter, the Mayans were not all Leonardo Da Vinci, this was the best they could interpret it. Pacal is clearly bending forward, oxygen tubes are in his nose, his hands are manipulating controls, his feet are pushing pedals, he is sitting on some sort of chair, and there are flames coming from the exhaust. My opponent is making the mistake of assuming alien ships look like ours.

They could fly, but they flew via flying horse-drawn chariots

I’m sorry, but the Vimanas were the actual machines. “The Ramayana even describes a beautiful chariot which arrived “shining, a wonderful divine CAR that sped through the air””. [5]. Where are horses mentioned? This should like a UFO to me.

This is a point that pro forgot to add his citation for, so I’ll hold off on this one until next round as well.

Sorry for forgetting the source. It has been added as SOURCE 6.

CONCLUSION

All of Con’s points can be disproven using simple logic and facts. It is clear that all my points still stand, so it is an easy vote PRO.



SOURCES:
1. http://en.wikipedia.org...

2. http://www.abovetopsecret.com...

3. http://listverse.com...

4. http://www.world-mysteries.com...

5. http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

6. http://www.crystalinks.com...

RyuuKyuzo

Con

Let's do it!

C1: The Nazca Lines

" Please explain then why these patterns can ONLY be seen from the sky and why they would smooth down the tops of the surrounding hills to form runways?"

Your question assumes the thing you're trying to prove. They are not runways, nor was that the intention of a Peruvians. Secondly, just because we can't say for certain why the Peruvians made these lines does not prove that aliens did it. That is jumping to conclusions. A more reasonable estimate is that these lines were made to represent animal-gods which the ancient Peruvians believed controlled the various aspects of agriculture [1]. Specifically, these were the Nazcan gods of water an fertility, which makes a lot of sense when you consider that this is a desert we're talking about.

"We have differing facts on this, the largest of the designs measured over 660 feet across which is nowhere near a mile"

Your source says that the largest figure is 660 feet across. There are also straight Nazca lines that were used to guide pilgrimages [3]. I know I said 15 miles, but I meant 15 km (9 miles) [4]. I apologize. I blame my Canadian heritage for the mix up.

Either way, 9 miles is still incredibly long for a "runway", so the point stands.

"Looking at the nearby mountains, they still have their tops. Where did the smoothed rubble from the top of the mountains go?"

Only the first picture in the thread pro linked to as his source makes the Nazca mountain look impossibly smoothed. Every other picture of that area (including the picture literally one post below that one) reveals that it is, in fact, a naturally flat area that has had the red oxidised rocks on top moved to form a line, the same way all the other Nazca lines were formed.

There has been no compelling evidence for aliens presented here.

C2: The Pyramids of Giza and Teotihuacan

"The Egyptians knew about true north [1]? Unlikely."

... Your source brings me to the wiki page on the Nazca lines. I can't verify your argument. I will say this though, True north (or, geodetic north) is the north that lines up with the sun [5][6]. Therefore, my point stands and there's no need for compasses to line up the pyramid with the cardinals.

"The Pyramid of Giza was composed of roughly 2.3 million limestone blocks which came from nearby quarries, not cut on site...etc."

Your source goes to a page on the Mexico pyramids. Once again, I can't verify the statistics in your argument. As such, we'll have to go with my source for the time being.

"This isn’t spectacular? These cultures have never contacted each other, but somehow their structures are the same perimeter? Possibly the aliens gave this pyramid building knowledge to these civilizations."

The perimeters are very similar, but the lengths of the sides and the height of the structure are wildly different. This looks like a coincidence to me since literally every other dimension of the pyramids are different. Even if we add aliens into the mix, nothing is explained. Why would the aliens tell them to aim for this perimeter if they didn't care about the side length, the slope and the sides or the height? This doesn't warrant jumping to such a conclusion as aliens.

"Well I click on the link, it just brings me to Google maps. Could you please elaborate on how you came up with these numbers?"

Correct links are in the comments section.

"15.5 degrees stuff"

All your source says is that the city in general is 15.5 degrees east of True North. It's not bizarre in any way for a town to have all its building oriented in the same facings. In fact its pretty much the only way building are placed. You can look outside right now and see that buildings in close proximity tend to have the same facings. It's just good civil engineering.

And what's so special about about two buildings lining up with the sun one day of the year that only aliens could have done it? This isn't exactly hard evidence of aliens.

Nothing about the pyramids suggests aliens.

C3: References in Writing

"The Book of Ezekiel, Bible, Chapter 1."

I'm asking for the specific passage. You didn't give one, because you couldn't. the truth is, nothing in the book of Ezekiel is about aliens [7].

"My opponent is making the mistake of assuming alien ships look like ours."

No, you said they resembled modern space-ships last round. Don't try to pin this on me. Furthermore, you've ignored my source here and have instead merely re-asserted your position. Every image on that lid can be explained by historians as typical Mayan symbolism for the process of death.

"I’m sorry, but the Vimanas were the actual machines."

The "machines" pro is taking about come from a book called the Vaimānika Shāstra, which is a famous hoax [8]. This book is not part of ancient Indian text. In fact it's only about 100 years old. Furthermore, the designs mentioned in this book were tested by scientists in 1974, and they found that none of these machines would be able to fly, or even function in any way [9].

Furthermore, as someone familiar with Hindu texts, I can tell you that there is no verse in the Ramayana that translates to "shining, a wonderful divine CAR that sped through the air". Don't take my word for it, read through the Ramayana and see for yourself [10]

"Sorry for forgetting the source. It has been added as SOURCE 6."

The only thing your source says about the Mayans is;

"Men came from the stars, knowing everything, and they examined
the four corners of the sky and the Earth's round surface."

One has to wonder where the ancient Maya got their advanced
knowledge in astronomy, mathematics, and other physical sciences."

and

"The Mayan Chilam Balaam texts stated,
"Beings descended from the sky in flying vessels...
white men in flying rings, who can touch the sky."

This doesn't actually provide evidence for anything you said last round. It's also lying. It cites the wikipedia page as it's source for the Chilam Balaam texts stating "Beings descended from the sky in flying vessels", but the wiki page says nothing about that.

Conclusion

Pro's weak sourcing has defeated his own argument. He's relying on internet forums and snippets from biased websites to prove his case -- and those are the best cases. Sometimes there's no source to go on whatsoever. Furthermore, he hasn't established anything that would require aliens to accomplish. Add that to the fact that he's conceded a great deal of his arguments this round and it's clear that the resolution has been negated.


1. http://en.wikipedia.org...
2. THE NAZCA LINES, WATER AND MOUNTAINS: AN ETHNOARCHAEOLOGICAL STUDY. Johan Reinhard. 1996
3. Silverman, Helaine (1994). “The Archaeological Identification of an Ancient Peruvian Pilgrimage Center”. World Archaeology 26 (1): 1–18. doi:10.1080/00438243.1994.9980257. JSTOR 124860
4. http://www.traveladdicts.connectfree.co.uk...
5. http://en.wikipedia.org...
6. http://adventure.howstuffworks.com...
7. http://www.youtube.com... [video]
8. http://en.wikipedia.org...
9. Mukunda, H.S.; Deshpande, S.M., Nagendra, H.R., Prabhu, A. and Govindraju, S.P. (1974). “A critical study of the work “Vyamanika Shastra”". Scientific Opinion: 5–12.
10. http://hinduism.about.com...
Debate Round No. 3
ishallannoyyo

Pro

I thank my opponent for his comments.

C1: THE NAZCA LINES

Your question assumes the thing you’re trying to prove. They are not runways, nor was that the intention of the Peruvians.

This is not a sufficient rebuttal. The fact remains that it can only be seen from the sky.

A more reasonable estimate is that these lines were made to represent animal-gods which the ancient Peruvians believed controlled the various aspects of agriculture.

Right, and thus they decided not to create a temple or anything reasonable, but instead to draw massive figures in the ground that can only be appreciated at high altitudes.

Your source says that the largest figure is 660 feet across.

Yes, we are talking about the figure, are we not?

I know I said 15 miles, but I meant 15 km (9 mile)

However the source provided for the aircraft and one mile argument was not talking about the single runway (there are numerous) that I have shown pictures of, the website was referring to the drawings themselves, which are extremely long, only furthering the argument that the lines were meant for something that flew. I’m Canadian too!

Every other picture of that area (including the picture literally one post below that one) reveals that it is, in fact, a naturally flat area that has had the red oxidised rocks on top moved to form a line, the same way all the other Nazca lines were formed.

That is blatantly false. The other pictures only confirm that the area is not “naturally flat.” There are clearly mountain ranges there, that is not “naturally flat.” It is pretty clear that the rubble is gone, it looks like an airport runway, it’s been SMOOTHED DOWN (just look how smooth it is, that can’t be erosion, and if it was, why weren’t the other mountains affected), and the other mountains are fine. Clearly, the Peruvians smoothed it down, and the most logical explanation factoring in the Nazca lines are that something flew in that area, and it most certainly wasn’t the Peruvians.

My point still stands.


C2: THE PYRAMIDS OF GIZA AND TEOTIHUACAN

Your source brings me to the wiki page on the Nazca lines.

Deepest apologies, this darn copy-paste won’t work!!

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Second, both your sources don’t say that true north lines up with the sun, in fact the wiki page says that it is 1 degree off of Polaris. The Egyptians were extremely accurate, and they did this without extraterrestrial help? Unlikely.

We’ll have to go with my source for the time being.

Same source above. We’ll go with mine now, though you still have time to refute.

The perimeters are very similar, but the lengths of the sides and the height of the structure are wildly different.

Yet you admitted that many pyramids around the world have these same perimeters. “Furthermore, most of the worlds major pyramids have very similar perimeters.” This is just a coincidence? Perhaps the aliens knew that perimeter would lead to a perfect base, and thus have a stable building block for the pyramids. The rest of the pyramid the humans could design, I don’t know, but the fact remains these are too many coincidences.

Correct links are in the comments section.

I clicked on the links, but that doesn’t prove anything. For example, changing walking distance to driving distance changes the distances between the pyramids. Furthermore, that is along a road not a direct route. However, even though the lengths are different regardless of walking or driving, the pyramids still line up in a significant way because of the fact of the angle of the degree of the line between the two being almost dead on.

And what’s so special about two buildings lining up with the sun one day of the year that only aliens could have done it?

The fact that the sun lines up perfectly on that day every year and there is no evidence that the ancient peoples of that area had that extensive astronomical knowledge (except the Mayans, which is also an anomaly).

My points still stands.


You didn’t give one, because you couldn’t. The truth is, nothing in the book of Ezekiel is about aliens.

I’m sorry, I didn’t know you requested a chapter, I haven’t read the bible. A book has been published on this “The Spaceships of Ezekiel” Josef F. Blumrich [1] who examined the entire book to conclude aliens were being described.

Chapter and Verse: Chapter 1 Verses 1 – 21 [1][2].

No, you said they resembled modern space-ships last round.

Key word, resembled.

Every image on that lid can be explained by historians as typical Mayan symbolism for the process of death.

No source provided, cannot be verified, regardless it is clear it looks like a spaceship. This cannot be denied.

The “machines” pro is talking about come from a book called the Vaimānika Shāstra, which is a famous hoax.

Mainly that book, but not fully. Flying machines were also described in other Indian epics. Plus, the Chinese discovered Sanskrit text which are instructions on how to build a flying vehicle. [3]

This doesn’t actually provide evidence for anything you said last round. It’s also lying. It cites the Wikipedia page as it’s source for the Chilam Balaam texts

How is this not evidence??? Nobody can deny that the Mayan calendar ends on December 21, the day of the galactic alignment [5]. How did they know the Earth was round? This is already conclusive evidence they were given some form of knowledge. Furthermore, it is not sourcing the Wikipedia page, that is a page for info on the Chilam Balaam texts. Well clearly the Bible are all lies too because when you Wikipedia the Bible, many of the verses aren’t there! This is a ridiculous assumption that it is “lying.” This is hard evidence! [6]

Pro’s weak sourcing has defeated his own argument. He’s relying on internet forums and snippets from biased websites to prove his case.

Thus of course, all my information is false? Of course not, these are all true facts!

Furthermore, he hasn’t established anything that would require aliens to accomplish.

Yes I have, all of my points have.

Add to the fact that he’s conceded a great deal of his arguments

Which ones? Would you count conceded as not refuting every sentence? I have responded to every one of your major points! Furthermore, it seems as if you have conceded more. Please explain to us the marvellous Egyptian engineering that created the amazing pyramids in 20 years.

CONCLUSION

All of my points still stand, thus my opponent hasn’t successfully fulfilled his BOD. Thus, it is clear that aliens have given us knowledge or helped us or visited us, so it is an easy vote PRO. I thank my opponent for an excellent debate!

SOURCES:

  1. http://arcturi.com...
  2. http://www.godlikeproductions.com...
  3. http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net...
  4. http://en.wikipedia.org...
  5. http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

RyuuKyuzo

Con

First, I would like to point out that my opponent has broken the rules of this debate. At the beginning of this debate, he stated that we would be using the exact same rules from the other debate he had on the same topic:

"R1 for acceptance, we will just use the same definitions from that previous debate, all rules will remain the same."

Those rules were:

R1 Acceptance
R2 -3 Arguments
R4 LESS THAN 1000 CHARACTER conclusion, no new arguments may be presented [1]

Clearly, my opponent has done more than a 1000 character conclusion and therefore is in violation of this debates agreed upon conduct.

Since I have no other option, I will have to respond to my opponents arguments, so here we go.

C1: THE NAZCA LINES

Pro claims that me pointing out that his argument assumes what he is trying to prove is a insufficient rebuttal. It should be noted that 1. I talk more about the Nazca lines literally in the next sentence and 2. being seen from the sky does not prove that they are alien runways. My opponent has the BOP on this and without any actual proof there's nothing to rebut, so criticism my rebuttal is a moot attack.

--

The Nazcans did build temples, but they also made giant sand-figures. The idea at play here is that they are tributes to the Gods, who live in the heavens. Besides, humans do odd things all the time, this doesn't warrant jumping to the conclusions that aliens where involved.

There are no ancient Nazcans left to ask, but I ask the voters, which is more likely?; That the ancient Peruvians made sand-figures of animals to honour the animals gods they believed controlled things like rain and crop quality and made straight lines to act as pilgrimage guides -- or that the Nazcans made animal figures to impress (?) aliens and made run-ways for them that stretched for miles.

--

No, we're talking about the runways, which run for miles.

--

I can't say I understand what you're trying to get at here. Yes, you were referring to the drawings, but the animal figures obviously couldn't be used as runways, and my point is that the straight-lines are far too long to make sense as run-ways.

--

It's not "blatantly" false if your only response is that it looks unnatural to you personally. The fact is, the Nazca region is recognized as a plateau, not a mountain that's been manually shaved off. Furthermore, I leave it up to the voters to decide if the area looks artificially flattened, or if it looks basically the same as any other plateau area [2] [3]. If anything, the second picture looks like an artificial plateau, but both are natural.

C2: THE PYRAMIDS OF GIZA AND TEOTIHUACAN

Pro provides the source he meant to use as source 1 last round. His source is the wikipedia page on TGPOG. This source confirms that the facings line up with true North and not magnetic North, which was what I was saying last round. A compass points to magnetic North, but the sun aligns with true North, just as the pyramids faces do, which means to compass was needed and therefore no aliens where needed either.

As a side note, my opponent states that my sources do not say true north lines up with the sun. This is not true. Source number 6 of that round clearly shows you how to find true North using the Sun -- without the use of a compass.

--

My opponent uses the wikipedia page of TGPOG to support his argument that;

1. 2.3 million limestone blocks were used
2. They came from nearby quarries, not cut on site
3. The largest stone weighed 25 – 80 tonnes and was transported to TGPOG from Aswan, which was 500 miles away.
4. 5.5 million tonnes of limestone, 8000 tonnes of granite (all from Aswan) and 500 000 tons of mortar were used

His source does indeed confirm this. I was being lazy last round and brushed this off until I could verify his source, but now that this is done I will deal with this argument. "Nearby quarries" and "on site" are the same thing;

"A horseshoe-shaped quarry lies just south of Khufu’s Great Pyramid and the Khafre pyramid causeway. The sides of the quarry align with the sides of the Khufu Pyramid." [4].

I've already shown in round 2 that they were capable of cutting large blocks and transporting them via sleds and ships. Check out the videos I've sources explaining the process.

That's basically all that needs to be said. To recap, the bulk of the stones where cut on-site and the ones that weren't were dug out of the ground, lifted with levers onto sleds, dragged to a ship ad transported to the build site.

--

There's nothing magical about the pyramids perimeter that makes it superior to another perimeter. If it is, you need to show that. Other than that, every other dimension is different. This just isn't enough evidence to prove aliens where involved.

--

Changing the walking distance to driving distance doesn't change the actual distance 5 fold (or at all, really), so your counter argument doesn't hold water. Also, you can't derive a similar angle when you're only talking abut 2 objects relative to nothing. The voters can run this experiment right now.

Take 5 objects, line three of them up in a row, then the other 2 in a row. Do the angles of how they line up match? You can't answer that question because it's nonsensical. There is no angle involved in a straight line between two objects to make it relative to a straight line drawn through 3 objects. This is why pro couldn't say what the angle was.

--

It doesn't take extensive astronomical knowledge to have two buildings line up with the sun 1 days of the year. Anyone can line anything up with the sun for 1 day a year just by observing the sun, or even accidentally for that matter.

C3: REFERENCES IN WRITING

Pro admits he hasn't read his own source. My source from last round already debunks his source this round.

--

This is petty semantics. They were your words, not mine. That's all that's relevant.

--

The source was given in the previous round. It's the same source because you ignored it.

--

Pro's source doesn't say anything that hasn't already been dealt with. If it's a machine, it's from the hoax book. If not, it's a floating palace drawn by flying horses or a magic carpet.

--

Pro is making new arguments here abut galactic alignment and Mayans knowing the earth is round that I simply don't have the space to respond to. The point is, pro's source was an Internet snippet that itself sourced wikipedia which said nothing about what said snippet claimed it did.

Conclusion

Pro violated the rules of the debate that he himself established this round. The only arguments he has going for him are 1. We don't know for sure why the Nazca lines exist, 2. Two pyramids have the same perimeter (but no other similar dimensions). Everything else is either completely debunked or so poorly supported that it can't be taken seriously. this is not enough to justify a belief in ancient aliens and so the resolution has been negated.



1. http://debate.org...
2. http://www.viewzone.com...
3. http://us.123rf.com...
4. http://www.aeraweb.org...
Debate Round No. 4
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by RyuuKyuzo 4 years ago
RyuuKyuzo
Looks like they all go to the right place, mate. Thanks to you to! =)
Posted by ishallannoyyo 4 years ago
ishallannoyyo
If any of my sources are wrong (though I doublechecked this time), please post a note in the comments it will be rectified and I will tear some hair out. Thanks for a great debate!
Posted by RyuuKyuzo 4 years ago
RyuuKyuzo
My google-maps links didn't work. Here's link 13 [http://tinyurl.com...] and 14 [http://goo.gl...]
Posted by RyuuKyuzo 4 years ago
RyuuKyuzo
Hmm? I see the picture of the pyramids aligning.
Posted by ishallannoyyo 4 years ago
ishallannoyyo
And by pictures not uploading I mean the pictures of the mountains at Nazca, the alignment of the pyramids, the sanskrit writings, I saved them to my album but when I opened it up it wasn't there.
Posted by ishallannoyyo 4 years ago
ishallannoyyo
Reading Chariots of the Gods :P

Plus I wanted to be polite.
Posted by RyuuKyuzo 4 years ago
RyuuKyuzo
That's fine. The ones that did show up turned out better here than in the other debate anyway. Much larger and clearer.

Tbh, I'm surprised yo took me up on my offer. I mean, you're whole argument was already laid out, so for me to offer being your debating partner would suggest that I already know how to beat the arguments you've presented.

You must have a trick up your sleeve.
Posted by ishallannoyyo 4 years ago
ishallannoyyo
Sorry, not all the pictures uploaded.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by miketheman1200 4 years ago
miketheman1200
ishallannoyyoRyuuKyuzoTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: WOW! Con did a great job. This was like Mohammed Ali fighting a duck. Most of Pros debate was defense or dropping arguments. Con easily refutes all of Pros initial arguments and his ability to beat Pro to the point where sources and arguments are dropping left and right gave him the definitive WIN.
Vote Placed by GorefordMaximillion 4 years ago
GorefordMaximillion
ishallannoyyoRyuuKyuzoTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: pro broke rules. pro did not meet BOP, plus con debunked. Poor sources for pro.
Vote Placed by iamnotwhoiam 4 years ago
iamnotwhoiam
ishallannoyyoRyuuKyuzoTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Speculative arguments from Pro. Failed to meet BOP even without Con's debunking. Con's sources were more factual. Conduct to Con for Pro breaking last round rule.
Vote Placed by Maikuru 4 years ago
Maikuru
ishallannoyyoRyuuKyuzoTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro's case boils down to "present mystery, attribute it to aliens," without any evidence presented. This debate could have very well been about gods or demons or humans traveling back in time from the future, as Pro's arguments were simply assumptions. Con pointed this out repeatedly, doing well to either flush out blatant falsities or else expose the lack of a link between the subject matter and the existence of aliens. Conduct to Con for Pro's broken last round rule.
Vote Placed by MochaShakaKhan 4 years ago
MochaShakaKhan
ishallannoyyoRyuuKyuzoTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro broke his own rules by posting a full argument in round 4, and sourcing was a big issue for him throughout the entire debate. The reasons pro uses to show that aliens came to Earth in ancient times are really sketchy. Like con said about the Nazca lines, why make animal figures for aliens? Not knowing why they did what they did isn't a good enough reason to prove that aliens did it. It is wierd that both the great pyramid of giza and the sun pyramid have the same perimeter, but if that's all they have in common then it's too much to assume aliens did it. For me, the biggest issue is motivation. If I don't see any reason why the aliens would do these things, then it just doesn't make sense to me, and pro never explained this.