The Instigator
cherokee15
Pro (for)
Losing
17 Points
The Contender
ethopia619
Con (against)
Winning
19 Points

The Ancient Egyptians were Black (African).

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/19/2010 Category: Science
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 14,427 times Debate No: 13721
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (105)
Votes (6)

 

cherokee15

Pro

The egyptians were of black origin.
ethopia619

Con

Greetings Pro,

Counter Argument

1) My opponent has stated, "The Egyptians were of black origin." This is clearly false because, "[Ancient] Egyptians are not Arabs and are not Africans despite the fact that Egypt is in Africa." ~ Dr. Zahi Hawass.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________
Arguments

1) King Tutankhamen, aka King Tut, was not black. Therefore, the ancient Egyptians were not black (Africans).

2) Ancient Egyptians were not Arabs or Africans, even if Egypt was in Africa. So, the ancient Egyptians were not Africans.

3) In the UNESCO's international Cairo Symposium, the majority view was that ancient Egyptians were not black or white.

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 1
cherokee15

Pro

Thank you for the debate!!!
) My opponent has stated, "The Egyptians were of black origin." This is clearly false because, "[Ancient] Egyptians are not Arabs and are not Africans despite the fact that Egypt is in Africa." ~ Dr. Zahi Hawass.
Okay this is Zahi Hawass saying this. Obviously the majority of people dont believe that the egyptians where black but this is a fact that has been well hidden for a long time by some historians.
Now im going to give you a quote from Herodotus,The Father of History, "The Colchians who are egyptian and have Black skin and wooly hair and descend from the army of sesostris......." Histories
So are we going to take the word of an historian who give info that will get him accepted or the father of history who would have known the real race of the egyptians because he lived much closer to the time of the egyptians?(No diss to Hawass i just know that he is just another egyptologist who wont consider anything that could give him a bad rep from his associates.
Herodotus also states that the egyptians and ethiopians are a joint colony of Ammonians(AMUN).
Aristotle states, "The hair of the egyptians is curlier than other nations." That meant that the egyptians had tightly curled hair.
Aristotle says, "Those who are to black are cowards for instance the egyptians and ethiopians."
(Sources for Aristotle's quotes,Physiognomics VOL 6,11.)
Lycinus, Lucian(125 B.C.) states: "Describing an egyptian boy, this boy is not merely black, he has THICK lips and his legs are too thin."
Diodorus Siculus states: "The Ethiopians say that the egyptians are colonist sent out by ethiopians, as Osiris being the leader of the colony."
Diodorus Siculus(49 bc) states: "The Gods favored the ethiopians whom he believed to be the originators of the egyptian civilization."
Diodorus: "The Aethiopians(Ethiopians) are high favored with the gods, they were the first of all men created by the gods and were the founders of the Egyptian Civilization."
Ammianus Marcellinus: "The men of egypt are mostly brown or black with a skinny and desiccated look."
Note he did not say olive,"Tanned",yellow, or white but He said BROWN and BLACK!
Now the fact that anyone would argue against this shows how racist they are, They can't imagine that blacks made anything but huts. The earliest accounts of egytians say they are black.
I would like to ask my opponent who he thinks the egyptins race was.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
Arguments

1) King Tutankhamen, aka King Tut, was not black. Therefore, the ancient Egyptians were not black (Africans).
Okay? Where is the proof of that?

2) Ancient Egyptians were not Arabs or Africans, even if Egypt was in Africa. So, the ancient Egyptians were not Africans.
What were the anciant egyptians then? White!? LOL. It is insane to deny a people their heritage especially when it is in their back yard! How would people feel if they said that the aztecs were not mexican? You have no proof that the egyptians were not egyptians. The majority of the sculptures and statues portray the people with thick lips, braids, or black skin so who else could it be.
If you have ever heard of the Qustul Censer you would know that it is an artifact fount by Keithe Seele in 1962. It was found in Mordern day Sudan and predates any artifact founnd in modern day egypt!
The Qustul censer is an incense burner depicting three ships sailing toward a serekh (royal palace). In the middle boat a Pharaoh is shown (as archaeologist Bruce Williams discerned) wearing the White Crown of Upper Egypt and is adorned in royal Egyptian regalia. By his crown, a falcon symbol of the god Horus hovers, and in front of the falcon a rosette, an Egyptian royal insignia, is shown. This piece of characteristic Egyptian art was found not in Egypt, but rather 200 miles southward into Nubia. This discovery was mind-boggling. The Qustul censer was dated at 3,300 B.C., long preceding predynastic Egypt.
According to Seele,""The Nubian desert, for example, abounded with rock drawings from roughly the same period as the Qustul incense burner, many showing distinctly "Egyptian" themes and symbols. Ivory seals from the A-Group period had been found featuring kingly serekhs. A mud seal impression found at Siali---also dating from the A-Group period---showed a man saluting a serekh surmounted by a falcon.

In the latter inscription, the serekh was actually labeled with a bow---the heiroglyphic emblem for Ta-Seti, Land of the Bow---implying that the man was paying homage to a Nubian state. One bowl from Qustul even showed vultures tearing at a fallen enemy who is labeled with the signs for Ta-Shemau---Upper Egypt---possibly indicating that the Nubians had defeated Upper Egypt in Battle.

Every one of these inscriptions had been found in Nubia. Yet experts had always assumed that they referred to an Egyptian monarchy, rather than a Nubian one. Williams was no longer so sure. The evidence was clear that a powerful dynasty had indeed ruled Ta-Seti in prehistoric times. A count of the royal tombs at Qustul suggested that as many as twelve generations of kings may have been buried there. Why, then, should experts assume that every recognizable symbol of royal authority found in that country would be of foreign origin?"

3) In the UNESCO's international Cairo Symposium, the majority view was that ancient Egyptians were not black or white.
Like i said in the beggining This means absolutly nothing when compared to the Ancient view on egypt! Are you also aware that when DR.Cheikh Anta Diop attended the 1974 UNESCO'S INTERNATIONAL CAIRO SYMPOSIUM no one could prove his theories wrong?

Thank you.
And thank you very much, i wish you best of luck!
ethopia619

Con

Greetings Cherokee15,

Counter Arguments

1)For his long first counter argument, I will note that about the "Ammianus Marcellinus: "The men of egypt are mostly brown or black with a skinny and desiccated look."". He said "mostly". Therefore, not all of the ancient Egyptians were brown or black.

2)For his first counter argument, I should say this, "Some of the quotes are well of topic." Such as: "Aristotle states, "The hair of the egyptians is curlier than other nations." That meant that the egyptians had tightly curled hair." What does that have anything to do with the topic: "The Ancient Egyptians were black (African)?"

3)For the end of the counter argument about "I would like to ask my opponent who he thinks the egyptins race was.", I think that the Egyptians were half- animal, half- human. (You will know why in my arguments.)

4)For the voters: Note my opponent's improper grammar. He is 23 years old and he still doesn't know how to spell Egyptians. He writes it as "egyptins".

5)For his argument 1 about King Tut, I have the evidence. The proof is http://en.wikipedia.org...

6)For his argument 2, what does the topic have anything to do with Qustul censer? It is obviously off-topic.

7)In response for his argument 2, the ancient Egyptians had a skin tone that was from light to dark. Therefore, not all Egyptians were African or black.

8)In response for his argument 3, this has something to do with the ancient Egyptians of skin tone. The UNESCO researched about the ancient Egyptians; therefore, it has something to do with the topic.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Arguments

1)This is a follow up on my number 3 counter argument. The Egyptian gods were half- animal, half- human or immortal, therefore, not all of the ancient Egyptians were African.

2)As stated in http://answers.yahoo.com... , the ancient Egyptians were not defined as African.

3)The hair of the ancient Egyptians was similar to the whites, and uncommon to other races. It's like saying that the ancient Romans were Germans, because the Visigoths conquered part of the empire. LOL.

4)I would like to note that my opponent has not stated much sources, therefore, he or she could be using logic instead of facts. Most people think that the ancient Egyptians were black because they live in Africa, but this is false because of the facts that I listed.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Sources
1)http://answers.yahoo.com...

2)http://en.wikipedia.org...

3)www.answerbag.com/q_view/374780

4)www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/africa/eg.htm

I give thanks to my opponent for making this exciting debate. Thank you to the people who are reading this.
Debate Round No. 2
cherokee15

Pro

1)For his long first counter argument, I will note that about the "Ammianus Marcellinus: "The men of egypt are mostly brown or black with a skinny and desiccated look."". He said "mostly". Therefore, not all of the ancient Egyptians were brown or black.
He said mostly therefore "MOST OF" or "MAJORITY OF" egyptians looked like this.
I would love to thank my opponent for ignoring many of my quotes except this one like the herodotus one.
He really digs himself in a hole when he says that this quote means nothing because it is so obvius that it means a lot!
I will so you more quotes to further my case.
Egyptologist-Abbe Emile Amelineau(1850-1916):"From various egyptian legends, I have been able to conclude that the populations settled in the Nile Valley were Negroes, since the goddess Isis was said to have been a reddish-black woman."
According to Maspero in his first chapter of "Histoire ancienne des peuples de l'Orient": "....According to the unanimous testimony of the ancient historians, they belonged to an African race which, first established in Ethiopia on the Middle nile, gradually came down toward the sea, following the course of the river...."
Champollion-Figeac:" Dr. Larrey investigated this problem in Egypt; he examined a large number of mummies, studied their skulls, recognized the principle characteristics, tried tried to identify them in the various races living in egypt, and succeeded in doing so. The Abyssinians(Modern day Ethiopians, Eriitreans, Somali) seemed to combine them all...."
Now you so me a quote from someone that prooves your case in depth.

2)For his first counter argument, I should say this, "Some of the quotes are well of topic." Such as: "Aristotle states, "The hair of the egyptians is curlier than other nations." That meant that the egyptians had tightly curled hair." What does that have anything to do with the topic: "The Ancient Egyptians were black (African)?"
Really, so a man decribing an afro is an "of" topic quote? You do relize curly, wooly hair is the type of hair that most black people have right? Well how is this off topic.
You are really looking bad when you say things like this, And i challenge you to confront the quote from herodotus, because if you can't i win because you have ignored so many of these quotes.

3)For the end of the counter argument about "I would like to ask my opponent who he thinks the egyptins race was.", I think that the Egyptians were half- animal, half- human. (You will know why in my arguments.)
Okay you should lose because of that. The mummies are not "Half animal half man" and you have no proof to support this theory.

4)For the voters: Note my opponent's improper grammar. He is 23 years old and he still doesn't know how to spell Egyptians. He writes it as "egyptins".
Perfect move when you relize its the only good argument you have.

5)For his argument 1 about King Tut, I have the evidence. The proof is http://en.wikipedia.org......
Really, Wikipedia? one of the most unreliable source ever? How about you so me some anthropoligical evidence sir?
You ignore the fact that the model of him looks nothing like the mummy. For example if you look at a side view of the mummy he has a chin. You look at the sid view of the new model th chin goes in instead of out.
Also you ignore the fact that king tut died of Sickle Cell Disease, a diseas that is almost only exclusive to black african populations.
http://news.discovery.com...
6)For his argument 2, what does the topic have anything to do with Qustul censer? It is obviously off-topic.
WHAT DOES THE TOPIC HAVE TO DO WITH IT????REALLY!!!????
You really need to read my speech again if you don't know what it has to do with my case.
It is an ancient egyptian artifact, it predates dynastic egypt, it was found in the sudan(Kush,Nubia,SOUTH OF MODERN DAY EGYPT!!!!) nothing like this has been found in the delta or north of egypt, therefore(ARE YOU LISTENING?) IT is archaelogical evidence that egyptian civilization rose from the heart of africa. Thats what it has to do with the topic. Now if you still don't "Overstand" then read my first speech about 5 times.
7)In response for his argument 2, the ancient Egyptians had a skin tone that was from light to dark. Therefore, not all Egyptians were African or black.
(The majority were black)
I think what you are reffering to is the "Dark brown,red" colour that can be found in the majority of the egyptian paintings.
http://asiapacificuniverse.com...
http://www.public.asu.edu...
http://www.brekka.net...
http://www.hebrewisraelites.org...
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com...
8)In response for his argument 3, this has something to do with the ancient Egyptians of skin tone. The UNESCO researched about the ancient Egyptians; therefore, it has something to do with the topic.
What?
Could you rephrase the point you are trying to make please.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Arguments

1)This is a follow up on my number 3 counter argument. The Egyptian gods were half- animal, half- human or immortal, therefore, not all of the ancient Egyptians were African.
So how does that mean they were not all africans?
Obviously there was a fiew foreign slaves but the majority and ruling class were black.

2)As stated in http://answers.yahoo.com...... , the ancient Egyptians were not defined as African.
And yahoo answers is a very creditable source ain't it? A website that anybody can put ANYTHING ON!!!!.
I have already told you that the worldwide view today is not black so why are you using that as evidence?

3)The hair of the ancient Egyptians was similar to the whites, and uncommon to other races. It's like saying that the ancient Romans were Germans, because the Visigoths conquered part of the empire. LOL.
The hair was not just only similar to whites.
Wavy, curly, and straight hair are not exclusive to whites. Your name (ETHIOPIA) should suggest that you would know what most ethiopian woman look like, they have straight hair.So it does not help you to make that point because some black people have straight hair and thats a fact.

4)I would like to note that my opponent has not stated much sources, therefore, he or she could be using logic instead of facts. Most people think that the ancient Egyptians were black because they live in Africa, but this is false because of the facts that I listed.
But yet I have given you old and new and you can't "show" me one creditable study that supports your view, not ONE!
I gave you countless information and all you could give me was "Wikipedia", and Yahoo answers??
Really? I HAVE NO SOURCES?

One point i would lie to make is that DNA(E1B1B1 connects the original egyptians, Kemites, Nubians, and people of mali(West Africa)
Therefore there is dna evidenct that prooves my case.

Thank You........
ethopia619

Con

Hello Cherokee15,

Counter Argument

1)My username does not describe me like what you stated. If you wanted to argue about this, I will state that you should be a Cherokee Indian and that you are about 15 years old from your username: Cherokee15.

2)In response to your counter argument 3, you stated, "I would like to ask my opponent who he thinks the egyptins race was." Therefore, your argument about the "The mummies are not "Half animal half man" and you have no proof to support this theory" is false. You stated " I would like to ask my opponent who he thinks the egyptins race was"

3)You stated, The Ancient Egyptians were Black (African), therefore, you cannot argue with me about "the majority." Were. Key point. That means all. Defined: was all.

4)In response to counter argument 1, I already gave you one, about Zahi Hawass. The ancient Egyptians were not Arabs or Africans.

5)In response to counter argument 2, you never even explained how it relates to the topic. So how was I supposed know what you were saying?

6)In response to counter argument 4, you are just being rude, okay?

7)Responding to counter argument 5, Recent DNA tests show King Tut was mostly White(99.6%).

8)Responding to counter argument 7, the Nubians painted them as dark, but this is an artistic convention stereotyping a nationality, therefore, there were no dark Egyptians at that time.

9)Responding to counter argument 8, I will give you a taste of your own medicine. You stated before, "Read my first speech about 5 times," so, I will tell you, "read my speech about five times." Then you will understand it.

10)Responding to argument 1, read my counter argument 3.

11)In response to argument 2, rephrase that. Are you saying that the worldwide view today is that everyone thinks they aren't black or African? If you are, thank you. You agreed to my points.

12)In response to argument 3, read counter argument 1.

13)Responding to argument 5, or your last point, you stated, "One point i would lie to make is that…." You stated, "I would lie…" Lie. Therefore, you are lying when you made that point.

14)Responding to argument 5, where did you get that point? Any sources?
______________________________________________________________________________________
Arguments

1)I do not know what you are basically saying, so I'm pretty much guessing what you mean. Use spell check.

2) Recent DNA tests show King Tut was mostly White(99.6%).

3)In Islam, anyone who speaks Arabic is considered as an Arab, therefore, the Egyptians are Arabs, not Africans.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Sources

1)http://www.africaguide.com...

2)http://dictionary.reference.com...

3)mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/.../egyptians-are-not-arabs-they-are-egyptians/

Thank you. I give thanks to Cherokee15 and the voters. Special thanks to Cherokee15 for making an exciting debate.
Debate Round No. 3
cherokee15

Pro

1)My user name does not describe me like what you stated.
You guessed correctly. I am 15 and I am part Cherokee NATIVE AMERICAN.
Your name is Ethiopia therefore you should know what Ethiopia is and you should know that Ethiopian woman, for the most ethnic groups(Amhara,Oromo, Tigrynia) have straight hair, therefore if there is a mummy with straight hair it does not automatically mean that they are white.
These "Black" Egyptians still live in Egypt to this very day. Here are some pictures of this type:http://heavenawaits.files.wordpress.com...
http://www.fyicomminc.com...
http://members.fortunecity.com...
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com...
http://img.youtube.com...
http://media.photobucket.com...
And did you not look at this mummy that I gave you in my other speech?
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com...
2)In response to your counter argument 3, you stated, "I would like to ask my opponent who he thinks the Egyptians race was." Therefore, your argument about the "The mummies are not "Half animal half man" and you have no proof to support this theory" is false. You stated " I would like to ask my opponent who he thinks the Egyptians race was"
And your point is? Your still not confronting the fact that your making your self look really bad by saying something like this. Is this a joke or are you serious? None of the mummies are half animal half man so I don't get why you would bring this up if you were not joking.

3)You stated, The Ancient Egyptians were Black (African), therefore, you cannot argue with me about "the majority." Were. Key point. That means all. Defined: was all.
It is a given that when I said the resolution it meant the majority and it meant the founders of the civilization were black so don't try that bull crap on me(No offense)
If someone says the "Romans were white" its true but obviously they are not saying that 100% were they are saying the ruling class and majority were. There were black slaves, middle eastern and Asian slaves but that does not mean it was not a white civilization. So don't try the "Word game" on me because you know exactly what I'm talking about and don't act like you don't.

4)In response to counter argument 1, I already gave you one, about Zahi Hawass. The ancient Egyptians were not Arabs or Africans.
Yes you gave me Zahi Hawass but did you give me The father of history? Have you given me any quotes from the "ANCIENT" historians on their take on the TRUE race of the Egyptians race? I gave you new and old and all you can give me is zahi!LOL! Obviously you don't know much about the topic if that's all you can give me because I can think of a lot of quotes that you could have used on me.
I also want to note that zahi contradicts himself when he says that President obama looks like king tut in an interview:

5)In response to counter argument 2, you never even explained how it relates to the topic. So how was I supposed know what you were saying?
Why do I have to explain if you don't know much about Egyptian history in the first place, if you knew you would have read that point and you would know what it meant, if you don't know what the Egyptian stuff meant then you should not have even accepted the challenge. This debate is not for everyone just people who know alot about Egypt. Did you think it would be easy?

6)In response to counter argument 4, you are just being rude, okay?
I'm not being rude, I'm speaking the truth whether you like it or not.

7)Recent DNA tests show King Tut was mostly White(99.6%).
He was 99.6% Mediterranean. Not white. Mediterranean is a vague term and it can mean white Mediterranean(Italians) middle eastern ones(Turkey) or black ones (North Africans).
Also you ignore the fact that he died of sickle cell disease, and you ignore that the mummy looks VERY different from the reconstruction.

Zahi Hawass even says that the reconstruction looks nothing like the real king tut.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
8)Responding to counter argument 7, the Nubians painted them as dark, but this is an artistic convention stereotyping a nationality, therefore, there were no dark Egyptians at that time.
Mhhm. Not reading my speeches again I see.....Those paintings that I gave you were painted by Egyptians! And the Egyptians painted the nubians as dark not vice versa so where are you getting your info from?
More paintings:http://www.google.com...
http://i.ytimg.com...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com...
9)Responding to counter argument 8, I will give you a taste of your own medicine. You stated before, "Read my first speech about 5 times," so, I will tell you, "read my speech about five times." Then you will understand it.
That proves nothing.

10)Responding to argument 1, read my counter argument 3.
You cant prove that though, and that's all that matters.
11)Are you saying that the worldwide view today is that everyone thinks they aren't black or African?
Yes that what I'm saying so you cant give me a yahoo answers thing to prove what you are trying to say.
12)In response to argument 3, read counter argument 1.
Not proving.

13)Responding to argument 5, or your last point, you stated, "One point i would lie to make is that�€�." You stated, "I would lie�€�" Lie. Therefore, you are lying when you made that point.
You know exactly what I meant so don't try that bull crap on me.

14)Responding to argument 5, where did you get that point? Any sources?
I don't need to show you the evidence because it is a common known fact but if you insist I will.
Cavelli Sforza: "Genes, Languages, and peoples shows that the taureg Berber of west Africa are most closely related to the indigenous east Africans of the Nile Valley-Specifically the Beja who are known as the Medjay in old Egypt."
Taureg most closely related to:
a)Beja-135
b)Sudanese-240
c)Amhara-278
d)Tigre-320
e)Cushitic-352
Now do you have any DNA evidence to support the contrary?

Arguments

3)anyone who speaks Arabic is considered as an Arab, therefore, the Egyptians are Arabs, not Africans.
But you just said that the Egyptians were NOT Arab so now you are contradicting yourself.

Voters, the reason why I win is because I have shown the most creditable sources(Ancient,modern scholars).
I confronted his one quote, whereas he attempted to do it to only three and failed at doing so while ignoring the Herodotus quote.
My opponent has ignored a lot of my points, while I have ignored none and confronted all.
For the most part he chose not to show any sources that proved his case. He showed one and it was very weak.
I went into depth and showed DNA evidence while he mentioned one thing but never really elaborated on it.
I know most of you may not believe that the ancient Egyptians were black, but that's not what this debate is about. Its about who in this debate made the debate more convincing.
Thanks
ethopia619

Con

Counter Arguments

1)Responding to counter argument 1, have you not read my profile? I'm Chinese-American, not Ethiopian. I just picked out a random username and just placed it on, okay? Geez.

2)Responding to counter argument 1, the topic is, "Are the ancient Egyptians black (African)?" so we aren't talking about the Egyptians today.

3)Responding to counter argument 1, again, I went on Mozilla Firefox Safe Mode, which someone how blocked all the pictures. So I couldn't see that.

4)In response to counter argument 2, read what I wrote about ten times. You stated " I would like to ask my opponent who he thinks the Egyptians race was." Thinks. THINKS. Therefore, all of your stuff about "And your point is?" thing is all false. Let me type again. Thinks. "I would like to ask my opponent who he thinks the Egyptians race was." THINKS. Sheesh.

5)In response to counter argument 3, you NEVER stated of how the word "were" was defined as. You never stated anything about that in your resolution. So your just lying.

6)In response to counter argument 4, fine, I will give you some then.
"Ramses II had Caucasian red hair. " ~ http://iconoclastradio.com...
"Burial Number 79 had red hair." ~ http://iconoclastradio.com...
"They were a mixture of many different kinds of people with many skin tones." ~ Afrocentrists old historian.
There, happy?

7)In response to counter argument 7, any proof? I got mine from http://www.africaguide.com...... .

8)Responding to counter argument 7, you are basically contradicting yourself about the website, Wikipedia.org. You stated that it was an unreliable resource, so everything about your Wikipedia thing is false. @ Cherokee15, backfired.

9)Responding to counter argument 8, I got it from http://www.africaguide.com...... .

10)In response to counter argument 9, you stated, "What? Could you rephrase the point you are trying to make please." UNESCO. It proves that the majority view was that the ancient Egyptians were not black.

11)Responding to counter argument 10, 11, and 12, I already did it. For counter argument 11, the majority view is that the ancient Egyptians were not black. Thank you for agreeing to my point.

12)In response to counter argument 14, all the quotes from http://iconoclastradio.com... were researched and have DNA.

13)In response to argument 3, dude, I wrote the argument as number 1 instead of number 3.

14)In response to argument 3, the topic is, "the ancient Egyptians were black (African)" therefore, I am stating that the ancient Egyptians were not black, so I can state that they were Arabs or White.

15)Responding to his argument of why he should win, I will state:
"Win or lose, it doesn't matter" ~ Jackie Chan
________________________________________________________________________________________________
Voters

1)You should vote for, well, to be honest, read gavin.ogden's comment:
Spelling/grammar-con(given)
Conduct-con(who says "bull crap" in a debate?)
Argument-con(Pro bears burden of proof, and proved nothing.)
Sources-pro(Well, con does still have another round...)
...and con has not even presented his final round. Rough debate for pro.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Sources

1) http://iconoclastradio.com...

2) Basically every quote is my source.

Thank you. Vote Con, please. Thank you to Cherokee15 for this thrilling debate.
Debate Round No. 4
105 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Gypsy 11 months ago
Gypsy
It honestly seems to me as if both sides of the debate have a limited scope of Egyptian history. If you *honestly* believe it is a question of white or black, you're not even in the ballpark. Herodotus is not a reliable source and neither is Hawass. Herodotus has been shown to confuse mythology and rumor as indisputable fact, and, as seen in many old translations, the term "black" does not mean black-African but "darker than the average European". A 1497 translation from Arnold von Harff described Indian Gypsies as "[...]many poor black naked people[...], showing the vague translation of "darker than the average European" was in use centuries later in the European world/colonies.
Hawass has never been a reliable archaeologist; he works selfishly and publishes personal theories instead of universally accepted theories.

Africa's northern territories have been colonized by outsiders for thousands of years. To say the population of ancient Egypt was *just* black or *just* white is ignorant, and so is shoving aside accounts of reliable historians with seemingly conflicting views of the Egyptian population. There are those who called them light and those who called them dark. One thing is for sure: after Hyksos, Persians, and Macedonians invaded, there was no longer a clear majority. It was a melting pot that became a larger melting pot.

There's a place called Axum near the Red Sea that was founded by Arabs and mixed with both Ethiopian and Arab cultures. Coincidentally, their artwork looks a lot like that of the EGs. I'm not saying the ancient Egyptians were a little of everything to sate everyone's thirst. No, I'm saying it because it's true. Egypt, due to geographical location, was literally the gateway to both African, Arabian, and Asian territories, all of which were invaded by different people at different historical time periods. If "He said they were black." and "King Tut is white." makes your case for an ENTIRE RACE, you're not the best at debating.
Posted by mulatto 11 months ago
mulatto
Just stating this but my dad is African (Mauritanian to be specific) And he is black (light brown) and he has a family tree that shows that his ancestors migrated from Egypt to Mali and Mauritania... If you look at him he resembles the pictures of the Ancient Egyptian sculptures. African people were forced from their home in Kemet (Eygpt) by Europeans and Arabs (innovators) This is my families history, so I mean unless you want just erase all of my fathers history...
Posted by ru2religious 2 years ago
ru2religious
After reviewing this debate - found that 'con' used Hawass as his main resource and Hawass is no longer employed because of his lies and trickery. His colleague agreed that the ancient Egyptians were Negroid Africans. It was latter revealed that Hawass does not like Africans or Afrocentric scholarship because it forces the media to confront the history of the Arabs who invade Egypt during the time of Muhammad and have been there sense. No non-bias scholar would ever suggest that the ancient Egyptian were not of Negroid stock. The Tutankhamen dna assessment R1B was in accurate and was created by a man that was not a geneticist but was making his own calculations based on the discovery channel. Secondly, in Camoron Africa and other places in Africa R1B has its origins.

Roman, Greeks, and Muslims alike have invade and made ancient Egypt home and thus the population is as it stands today - but an African origins in Africa is without refute. The ancient Egyptians recorded their own history and stated that they came from the south - Punt, Ta-Seti and Ethiopia aka ancient Sudan.

This debate shouldn't have gone to 'Con' and it is obvious that there is a bias based on movies, and foreign influence through migrations in modern times.
Posted by Wandile 2 years ago
Wandile
I'm from Africa and I'm black but I know this is pure nonsense to think that the ancient Egyptians were black. They were more like the olive tone of Palestinians but not black.
Posted by Karmarouge 3 years ago
Karmarouge
If you lose this it is because of leaving the other argument for a more "Important" one(much more exciting one). Stevie Wonder can see your research is better and your facts are left unchallenged. Because ur opponent attacks personal writing style(bad penmiship does not equate to false facts) as opposed to sticking to the argument at hand, shows inability to argue his point thus awarding you victor! I give you an A+. Good job!

Also I find it quite odd that When we talk Asia or Europe race is never brought into question. even though we know for sure that Black people were the first to populate the Earth (see Gloger's Law)
By the way, Can anybody talk about ancient europe and all the blacks running around France (See Grimaldi tribes). Blacks were first to populate the earth and science has proved this, as Blacks are the oldest people on earth. Silly racist tell us that Blacks in Africa needed help by the whites (who were a mutation of Blackness) in order to become civilized. That is like saying Children teach their parents about life as a senior citizen impossible for a child to teach such a thing they have NO CLUE.

Excellent job Cherokee15
Posted by gavin.ogden 3 years ago
gavin.ogden
I concede, we made it to 100!
Posted by cherokee15 3 years ago
cherokee15
I dont judge people, you judge me and say stuff as if u personally knew me! Its a fact that you are on the computer way to much for an adult. Therefore you have way too much time on your hands, and therefore i am not being presumptious. All you do is ignore my comments and leave long one's yourself that usually are irrelevant and full of a lot of things that prove that you are a low life if that is what you like to do.
Funny thing is that you have yet to explain why it is beneficial for a grown man to spend hours on the computer harrassing people when he should be doing something else with his time.
BTW dont leave a comment unless if it's mature and has relevance to the question.
I have to admit though, it's funny watching you get all offended and leave a really long comment that does'nt prove yourself at all.
Posted by gavin.ogden 3 years ago
gavin.ogden
I have two hands, actually, and what would you know about what an ADULT should, or should not have. You are very presumptous, and quick to judge people. You see, I already did everything I had to do(including learning how to write, and use the English language properly) so that I can have ample free time. While you will probably never have the luxury, it is very nice to be able to do what you want, and still be able to provide for a family. Now, confront the fact that you basically know nothing except maybe a little bit about Ethiopia, and I feel pretty good where I am sitting. Your judgements about me are humorous, but my judgements about you are real. You talk about going to college, yet you couldn't even write an admittance letter. They would take one look at it, and put the rejection letter in the mail(which is probably how it will happen). You don't want to get personal with me, kid. You can't keep up, I promise.
Posted by cherokee15 3 years ago
cherokee15
Um. Okay? Your still not confronting the fact that no adult should have that much time on their hand.
Posted by gavin.ogden 3 years ago
gavin.ogden
Oh yeah, and you can talk to me about having a life when you make yourself a comfortable living and have spare time. Until then, talk about things you know about, however limited they may be. And as for this whole minor business, your profile says you're 23, so I'm talking to you like a 23 year old. Just remember, this conversation has been a two way conversation...kind of. I guess you gave it a fair effort, although nothing very witty. If you want me to stop, just say the word.
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