The Instigator
JayConar
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Valar_Dohaeris
Con (against)
Winning
8 Points

The Athene's Unholy Grail is inferior to the Morellonomicon in all circumstances.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Valar_Dohaeris
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/11/2015 Category: Games
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,238 times Debate No: 68162
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (9)
Votes (2)

 

JayConar

Pro

League of Legends debate:

Acceptance first round.
Debate Round No. 1
JayConar

Pro

Round 1:

Gold efficiency:

The Morellonomicon costs a total of 2100 gold and offers these stats:

+80 Ability Power
+100% base mana regeneration
+20% cooldown reduction

This gives it a gold efficiency of 147.2%[1]

Whereas the Athene's Unholy Grail costs 2700 gold and offers these stats:

+60 ability power
+50% mana regeneration
+20% cooldown reduction
+20 magic resist

This makes it 103.6% gold efficient.[2]

Thus, it is objectively more efficient to buy Morellonomicons, which are, in fact, so efficient that it is possible to stack them whilst still being efficient. Thus giving 160 Ability Power, 200% base mana regeneration and 40% cooldown reduction in an incredibly gold efficient way. Whereas the Athene's Unholy Grail gives less AP and less mana regeneration and the same amount of cooldown reduction for a much higher cost. The fact that it gives +20 magic resist is irrelevant as 20 magic resist is, on its own, fairly inneffectual and there are much better items to be buying if you really feel the need to get magic resist. An example would be the Abyssal Scepter, which gives 50 magic resist and 70 Ability Power, whilst being 300 gold cheaper than the Athene's Unholy Grail.
Contextual usefulness

There are two roles which would generally buy the Morellonomicon or the Athene's Unholy Grail. These are:

APC (Ability Power Carry)

&

Support (Such as Zilean or another mana hungry supporting champion)

If you were an APC, you would generally wish to maximise your AP and your magic regeneration. Whilst Magic resistance is a good stat if you are against another APC in lane, the +20 ability power added to the +50% mana regeneration, as well as the lower cost, compared to the Athene's Unholy Grail, would make the Morellonomicon objectively more useful and efficient to buy early in the game. Later in the game, the Morellonomicon would simply outscale the Athene's Unholy Grail as the +20 magic resist offered by the Athene's becomes more and more irrelevant.

As an Ability Power support, you generally want incredibly efficient items. As we saw earlier, the Morellonomicon is a lot more efficient than the Athene's Unholy Grail and gives more AP and early mana regeneration. This makes the Morellonomicon a much better pick for an AP support than the Athene's.


Sources:
[1]http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com...
[2]http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com...

Valar_Dohaeris

Con

Note : The resolution

The athenes unholy grail is inferior to the morellonomicon in all circumstances. This is not a debate about which is better on average, this is not a debate about which is more plausible. This is a debate revolving around the fact that my adversary has made an Affirmative claim that the Morell is always superior to Athenes in every plausible scenario.


Let's first take a look at both items


http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com...

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com...


1) Fundamental misunderstanding

What my adversary fails to realize is the utility Athenes offers as a first item buy. Speaking from the perspective of an ex mid laner, I can almost assure that anyone in high elo would disagree with his statement for a majority of reasons.

1) Offensive and defensive side of the coin

Morellonomicon itself is actually the counter part to athenes in a way. Athenes has way more utility and defense while the morell offers grievous wounds and a slight bit more hp. Sometimes having the extra MR is a major utility in lane, along with the mana regen.

Athenes is often used for mana hungry champions where you can spam out spells and get mana back quickly, along with having extra MR to take hits more often. DFG use to be a huge item or ahri and LB but athenes is so OP in the competitive scene that people opted out of DFG to get the utility of the grail.

2) First items

Morell also gives you gold first items, as the build path while athenes gives you defense and mana regen. This allows you to stay in lane longer without backing, along with having extra spells to farm with and optimize your lane presence.



=conclussion=

It does not take much to refute this point, but there are scenarios in mid lane where athenes is a way better item choice than morell, espc as a first item. It allows you to take more damage from magic based champion due to the High magic resist, along with have more magic regen so you can spit out more spells.

It is a defense vs offensive item, and my adversary cannot make the claim that an offensive item is always the best way to go because it's not. Almost anyone in a high elo would attest to the fact, that having the extra MR and magic regen is way more impactfull in lane phase because you can stay in lane longer without having to back, along with spamming out more spells that give you extra damage on adversaries and picking up easy farm with the spells from the regen as well. Over all the defensive side is generally preferable.

What my adversary will not prove , is that morell is better in every scenario. It is an impossible stance.
Debate Round No. 2
JayConar

Pro

Round 2:

All my opponent has done is vaguely state that high elo players would disagree with me. He has not used any sources other than my own sources to substantiate his dodgy claims, thus he has not proved anything. He has not quoted any high elo players saying that they disagree with me. My opponent is unable to win this debate using simple, vague statements, with no proof that they're correct.
Valar_Dohaeris

Con

I have no idea what my adversary argued. He just literally dropped everyone of my arguments. He has to show that the morell is better than athenes in every possible situation.

= Why I win =

I have shown that the base MR is a great way to sustain longer in lane, early one. That being able to have the magic resist, allows you take more hits along with being able to farm for longer periods of time

I have shown that the mana regren it offers helps sustain in lane as well. Doing the same as the above.

Athenes is a defensive item for passive play. When you are wanting to farm cs, sustain in lane, and get as many creeps as you can without backing. It is the best first item buy you can get on a AP carry.

My adversary dropped every single point, while I refuted every one of his.

= Just a note =

Pro players that like athenes

http://www.probuilds.net... - Xiaoweixiao
http://www.probuilds.net... - Theoddone
http://www.probuilds.net... - Maple street

and thats just a few.
Debate Round No. 3
JayConar

Pro

JayConar forfeited this round.
Valar_Dohaeris

Con

extend for win
Debate Round No. 4
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Valar_Dohaeris 2 years ago
Valar_Dohaeris
not you * I was talking to zaro lol. I agree its not a waste of time
Posted by JayConar 2 years ago
JayConar
A debate that LoL is a waste of time would come down to the definition of waste of time. For it to be a waste of time you would have to prove that it's pointless, but as some people make money out of it that would be hard to prove. I could probably prove that it's a waste of time for some people some of the time. But then you could argue that LoL is used by some people to pass time between activities in which there is little or nothing else to do in which case people would be spending their time on LoL in order to pass it at a time where they would be doing little or nothing else otherwise which could hardly be considered a waste of time. It'd be a strange debate xD
Posted by Valar_Dohaeris 2 years ago
Valar_Dohaeris
You took an impossible stance lol
Posted by Valar_Dohaeris 2 years ago
Valar_Dohaeris
I'll debate you that lol is a waste of time
Posted by JayConar 2 years ago
JayConar
I should probably mention that there's no way in hell I could've won this debate, even without forfeiting xD
Posted by JayConar 2 years ago
JayConar
Because I still play it, but that doesn't mean I enjoy it xD - it's just a good social activity inbetween now and when I go to uni :P - why do you care so much? :P
Posted by Zarroette 2 years ago
Zarroette
How do you know so much about the game if you believe that?
Posted by JayConar 2 years ago
JayConar
I agree with you totally, I was told to make this debate xD
Posted by Zarroette 2 years ago
Zarroette
Lol. Stop playing life-drains like "League of Legends" and actually do something better with your life.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Commondebator 2 years ago
Commondebator
JayConarValar_DohaerisTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro dropped all of con's points. And FF
Vote Placed by 16kadams 2 years ago
16kadams
JayConarValar_DohaerisTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: FF dropped CON's case