The Instigator
makandchis
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
RIzzymoe
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

The Avengers can destroy the Justice League

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/10/2017 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 773 times Debate No: 99790
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

makandchis

Pro

My argument is that the Avengers from Earth 616 can abolish the Justice league from Earth one.

The Avengers team will consist of the following:
Iron Man
Captain America
Hulk
Thor
Hawkeye
Scarlet Witch
Black Widow

Justice League:
Batman
Superman
Flash
Cyborg
Aqua Man
Wonder Women
Green Arrow

Rules for the debate are to include reliable sources or else the argument will be considered invalid.
Use proper spelling and Grammar.
No name calling.

First round will be acceptance and first argument.
RIzzymoe

Con

This is a little difficult to do with the references, but I will try my best. I am also assuming that all heroes involved are using the full capacity of their powers. However, I will not use examples of them using absurd powers that writers used only as a plot device, such as Superboy Prime punching reality, or Scarlet Witch altering the entire Marvel universe not once but twice. With that out of the way....

My first source will be using is Wizard's top 10 most powerful super heroes list. This is one of the older ones, which has more of the heroes we are dealing with on it. On the Avenger's side you have #10 The Hulk, and #2 Thor. My side has #5 Flash, #4 Wonder Woman, and #3 Superman.

Reading the description of why the Flash is #5, is obviously due to his incredible speed. It is what put him ahead of even Charles Xavier, who can use his mind to defeat enemies. So that is why Hawkeye, the Black Widow and the Scarlet Witch would be out of the fight within a couple of seconds. Barry Allen moving at the speed of light (he could do that after he merged with the speed force) packs a lot of momentum into each punch, and would obliterate a non superhuman enemy assuming he was not pulling his punches at all. Plus, with him moving faster than you can read and react, they would not be able to put up any defenses. The only reason I have Captain America still conscious is because he is extremely well trained, and is a little faster and stronger than his non physically super powered Avenger allies. Plus his shield is part vibranium, so if he could get it in front of his face, he would not have any ill effects from the momentum coming at him.

Now the fight is 4 vs 7

Now lets deal with that pesky Captain America. Since he is not superhuman fast, he would not be able to completely get out of the Green Arrow"s sights. Granted, I am not allowing the GA to use his atomic bomb arrow, but a couple of his glue arrows would be enough. Rogers slowed even for a few moments by the glue would be completely unable to defend from the second fastest person in this battle (Superman), and one punch from the Kryptonian and Rogers would be out of the fight.

3 VS 7

Now here is where it gets difficult. You have the Hulk, Iron Man, and Thor left. This all comes down to the question of preparation. If they basically just randomly happened upon each other and began fighting, things would go one way, and if there was time to plan beforehand, things would go another way. I will stick with the former, even though that renders Batman almost completely useless in this situation (Almost). With that in mind, the easiest solution for the Iron Man problem would be Cyborg. As of his reincarnation in the New 52, he has the ability of technopathy. (DC.wikia.com) All he would have to do is come into contact with Stark, and he could assimilate and control his armor. And with his ability of flight and teleportation (Boom Tubes) that would not be too difficult for him to accomplish. Iron Man down.

2 vs 7

I do not like to reuse people in things like this, but due to the nature of the Flash"s powers, he would be ready and able to do more damage, or at least be very annoying. This time to the Hulk. But he is not alone. Remember my almost useless Batman? This fight has actually happened before. Hulk VS Batman, with Batman not having time to prepare beforehand (DC Special Series #27). I know its a bit lame, but knockout gas works on the Hulk too. It may not last a super long time, but as long as he can"t help his friend with the hammer in the near future, the gas will have done its job.

1 vs 7

Thor is easily the biggest problem the JL would face. Thousands of years fighting, magical hammer, and a God. Green arrow and an unequipped Batman would be little more than annoyances. Aquaman would put up a fight, and in bodies of water he can do some insane things, but out of water he is able to lift around 60 tons, while much more than you or I, much less than Thor (superman.wikia.com). However, lets examine Thor"s speed. http://comicvine.gamespot.com.... It seems to vary in the comics, however he is shown on those panels to be Slower Than Wolverine! Wolverine"s powers of speed and quickness are slightly higher than peak human. Wonderwoman and Superman are much faster than that. Superman has even raced Flash on several occasions. http://ifanboy.com.... In none of those races was superman blown out. And while Superman has the overall speed, Wonder Woman may be quicker when it comes to battle. I cant say it any better than Batman did. http://ifanboy.com... Bolt might be faster in a race than Bruce Lee, but in a fight Lee would hit Bolt many more times than he gets hit. In a battle with those heavy hitters, all of which have incredible strength, durability, and fighting skill, two faster fighters are greater than one. I look forward to your reply.
Debate Round No. 1
makandchis

Pro

Wizard's 10 most powerful super heroes is fan based and not comic based. People used their own opinions in their list which makes it unreliable. It placed Doctor Strange as number 10 while Superman was in the top. From the comics Doctor Strange faced off entities like Dormammu. Superman has a weakness of magic and that is what Doctor Strange does. He is quoted saying " I need more power. I want to be able to move worlds and shake them to their foundations. I want enough power in my hands to tear planets from the heavens and place them in a new sky". Super man should not be at the top of that list.

#17 Posted by capall (8206 posts) - 6 years, 9 months ago - Show Bio
ha, i remember those lists, they were quite biased if you ask me

The quote above is from a user on Wizard's top ten most powerful super heroes.
Your entire argument using Wizard's 10 is unreliable. It allows any one to post anything.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com...

The link above is proof that anyone can post anything because I posted a quick argument on why Strange can over power Superman. My name in the link is the same as this websites.

Since your main argument was based off opinionated website you will have to make a new argument.

Batman needs time to prepare to fight an opponent while Iron man does not. Iron man is more resourceful as he made a reactor inside a cave with scraps. Batman relies on his money to make his gadgets and struggles to make things out of random items. Batman has a suit for superman but it only works on superman because kryptonite is used to weaken him. Iron man has repulsive lasers and has another laser to cut heavy metals. Iron man can take hits from Thor and his hammer and can still put up a fight.

Green arrow has more experience in using a bow and arrow because he and his brother were performers at a moving carnival and had to make trick shots. He then joined SHIELD and received more training there and earned the title as Hawkeye. Green Arrow was a rich kid whose plane crashed landed on an island and made a bow and arrow to survive and then used his money to make a better bow but did not received high level training as Hawkeye did. Black Widow is an assassin trained from birth in Russia who works side by side with Hawkeye in many missions.These two would team up and easily take down Green Arrow at the beginning of the fight.

Scarlet Witch has a brother who can run fast so she will know how to take down the flash. Even though the Flash is faster than quicksilver scarlet witch can still use her powers to enter the mind of Berry and destroy him. Magic against speed is an easy win for magic because a simple move from Scarlet can kill Flash.

Cyborg is half machine which makes it easy for Black widow to take down. Black Widow has electric charges, lasers,and grappling hooks to her benefit. A large enough shock can short circuit cyborg or fry his brain. Cyborg relies on his machine body to hack systems but black widow isn't a computer so Black Widow wins this fight.
http://www.cinemablend.com...
http://marvel-movies.wikia.com...

Captain America vs Wonder Women will be challenging for Cap. He is one of the best fighters on the planet with super human strength, reaction, and speed. As the other members were defeated they will join in on the fights and over power wonder women. Cap can still put up a fight against wonder women due to his enhanced skills and his vibranium shield can could block attacks from Mjolnir. If Cap can keep up with attacks from Thor then he can take on Wonder Women.

Hulk is always angry and the more angry he is the more powerful he gets. Aqua man gets weaker the longer he is out of water. Even is aqua man can get Hulk into the water he can hold his breathe for hours at a time. Aqua Man is stronger under water but soon Hulk will surpass the strength of Aqua man underwater. Hulks' sonic clap is stronger under water and will most likely try to throw him out of the water or maybe throw him in space towards the sun.

http://marveldirectory.com...

Thor against super man is an entertaining fight. Superman has super human strength, speed, and reaction time. Thor has all those and over 5000 years of combat training. Thor was in a war against frost giants for nine months straight without food, water, or time to rest. He also can regenerate parts of his bodies and has his hammer. He can also go to a berserk rage which increases his powers. His hammer is also enchanted with magic which will weaken superman and Thor will win this fight.

http://marvel.com...

Please use comic based websites if you can find any or name the comic issue you found your information on. I look forward to your next argument.
RIzzymoe

Con

The wizard top 10 list I looked at was based off the magazine writer"s opinions, and it was used to give us a base for our argument. The only part of my argument that went off of the Wizard list was the initial rankings of the heroes, which was basically one sentence with no actual bearing on the outcome of the fights. Nothing regarding powers, or how a fight could possibly go can be thrown out by saying one sentence was opinion based. Therefore, I will not have to make a completely new argument. For most specifics beyond what was already commonly known about the hero, I provided a reference of some sort, but I will try to explain more thoroughly.

Scarlet Witch has a fast brother so she can handle the flash? How can you "know" how to take down something that moves literally faster than you can think? Unless you were to completely catch him off guard with a "vibra bullet" like in the Tower of Babel storyline, a normal person wouldn"t have a chance. Especially since we are saying they didn"t have time to prepare beforehand. Honestly the Flash is completely unfair, especially post speed force Barry Allen version. For instance, if you are working with a computer, an instantaneous response time would be considered 100 ms from key press to response. Anything slower than that and you can detect a delay. https://www.pubnub.com...
100ms equals 100,000,000 nano seconds. Now, it takes light 333 nano seconds to cover 100 meters. Which means the Flash could hit all three non powered heroes (assuming they are all 100 meters apart) a 100,000 times faster than they can register an "instant" if he is traveling at light speed. In Flash #150, he actually moves 10 times the speed of light, so that would make it a million times faster than they could register an "instant" . Something that moves faster than you can think and react will move faster than you can think to use your magic, and all it would take is one punch. So I stay with my assertion that Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, and Black Widow would be down before anything could really happen.

I would completely agree with you that Batman would have all kinds of issues with Iron Man. Which is why the other 4 members of JL that could fly would not let that happen. I still say that due to his "Technopathy" Cyborg would make Iron Man useless very quickly and handily, but I can give you another way this could end. Can Iron Man fly into the sun? Superman can. Goodbye Stark.

As far as your Wonder Woman VS Cap fight goes, is she wearing her bracelets or not? With them on he has a chance to last more than 2 or three strikes, with them off, she is much more powerful. For the sake of this fight I will say she has them on still. If he can take hits from Thor he can take them from WW? Look back at the reference I showed for Thor"s speed. Slower than Wolverine. And let"s look at WW. Look at the panel in reply #13 http://herochat.com.... She got the jump on someone who just caught the Flash in the face with an elbow, after he threw Diana to the ground. So the Flash had an opening, got dropped, and then she grabs the same person with no issues. Not to mention that pretty much any WW comic you pick up shows her deflecting bullets with her wristbands. Her speed, especially when fighting is concerned is in the same ballpark as the Flash, and any iteration of the Flash has been much faster than Wolverine. And while we are at it, he took a fraction of a second to take out 3 Avengers already, he can help her put Steve into the ground.

Also, I gave you a comic in which Batman actually beat the Hulk with no prior preparation. http://dc.wikia.com...
However, I will do something different this time. And for the record, this isn"t the first time someone drastically underpowered has beaten the Hulk. Invisible Woman put a force field around his head while the Thing punched him, Ghost Rider (in volume 1, before he became super strong) was able to burn out the oxygen around his face in order to stop him. So, the obvious move would be to have him fight Aquaman under water, where Aquaman can go toe to toe with Superman right? But I will make it even more difficult for myself. How about Cyborg? http://comicvine.gamespot.com... it would take a bit or searching, but if you look for the word scramble, you find the panel which states that Cyborg could scramble Supes brains in 5 seconds. The Hulk isn"t Superman, but I am sure that would slow him down a bunch. Until a writer brings up that great old chestnut, where the Hulk is losing but just finds a way to get angrier than "ever" in that particular situation and overcome whatever or whomever is attacking him. That"s when one of the most overpowered heroes this side of the Silver Surfer comes into play. While the Hulk"s mind is being scrambled, until he gets more angry or whatever, Mr Allen introduces him to the infinite mass punch first seen in JLA #3. Which gives his punch the mass of a white dwarf star, or 333,000 times the mass of the earth when he is moving at light speed. Check out this entertaining yet informative video about that move. http://nerdist.com... Now either he pulls his punch and just hurts the Hulk a lot, or he doesn"t, causes a black hole, which he can outrun. Therefore JL wins anyway. I will go with the former, and I doubt anything has ever hit the Hulk with that much force repeatedly as the Flash could. I won"t even say the Hulk dies, but eventually he will be at least knocked out. The flash can hit him with those punches at the speed of light. If there are any more questions about how over powered the Flash is, look at this panel, and the commentary below it. http://comicvine.gamespot.com... (excuse the swearing in the comment below it).

Now there is just Thor left.
Mind you, Green Arrow and Batman have done nothing, and will continue to do so.
The Flash is still running around being annoying, but he already used his super move to stop the Hulk, so he won"t use the same thing with Thor. However, since he can travel faster than light, Thor would not be able to hit him with lightning even though he could see his movements Avengers #281 he could follow Hermes even though other avengers thought he was seeing things). However the Wolverine fight is a damming example of his slowness vs how fast he can perceive. Plus Wonder Woman is sitting around doing nothing, and Superman is on his way back from the sun by now. Also, even though everyone hates on Aquaman, he has actually been seen to be fast enough to dodge lightning. http://comicvine.gamespot.com... look at response #7 and click on spoilers. It will show you a panel in which Aquaman dodges lightning from the Weather Wizard on land. Would he be enough to beat Thor? Absolutely not. But him, Wonder Woman, Superman (when he gets back) The Flash, and Cyborg will eventually wear him down.
Debate Round No. 2
makandchis

Pro

https://onlynerdsallowed.com...

In the comics
Batman has made contingency plans for all the members of the Justice League. Even though Ra's al ghul is slightly less smarter than Batman he was still able to obtain the plans and he almost defeated the justice league on his own before he was stopped by Batman.


Iron Man is smarter than Batman and could get Jarvis to get the contingency plans from Batmans computer. Iron man will know how to get the plans and tell the rest of his team. This will be easier for Avengers to win.

Contingency plans are below:

https://www.youtube.com...


I
Iron man can tell Thor how to defeat Superman. Iron man or Thorcan retrieve the kryptonite in the bat cave and use it on Superman.



Scarlet witch can give wonderwoman a vison that makes her think she is fighting an opponent equal to her. If wonderwoman thinks she is fighting an equal she will eventually tire out l, and will become so weak that scarlet witch will kill her.

Black widow is a sniper marksman and can shoot from miles away at batman to kill him.

Iron man can give Hulk a water absorbing foam to kill aquaman. If aquaman has no water he will die.

Iron man can give Hawkeyes a EMP arrow to shoot at cyborg to shut down half his body. Once half his body is shut down Hawkeyes can shoot another arrow to kill him.

Captain America Hawkeye and black widow would team up against green arrow and could disable him by taking away his bow and break his arms.

The rest of the avengers could surround scarlet witch and protect her from the flash so she could stop his body or give him a vison that will keep him from attacking again. Then Hulk could finish him off.

This information came from the comics Tower of Babel.
RIzzymoe

Con

Ok, so our initial premise was that there was no preparation beforehand. Now that has been abandoned, so that can only mean that you concede to the fact that when facing each other with no prior knowledge of the fight, JL wins all day. Victory #1 for me. Now I will show you how they will still win even if there is preparation.

First off, the Tower Of Babel series was a great story line. And as you say, Batman creates contingency plans for the JL, all of whom have insane amounts of power in their own right, that could be carried out even by someone without super powers.

Your basic assertion in this argument is that if Batman can do it, so can Iron Man, due to the fact that Tony is smarter than Bruce. What gives you that assumption? Who is smarter? Einstein or Plato? Well I can tell you this much, if I had a question about philosophy I would go to Plato, physics I would say Einstein. That"s what we are dealing with here. Stark is probably top 5 in Marvel when it comes to robotics, engineering and the like, and he is a great businessman. Bruce is also a great businessman, and the world"s greatest detective, and an amazing strategist. Plus he is known for being very sly, cunning and being able to read people. And again, going with your logic, Iron Man has Jarvis, a super intelligent AI to aid him. Does he have a contingency for all of the Avengers? I think not. He does have various armors to take down select Avengers, or at least to be able to fight with them, (World War Hulk #1 showed that his new and improved Hulkbuster armor wasn"t a match for Banner). But that is pretty much as far as his strategy goes. "I have to beat someone that has skills that don"t match up with my current suit of armor. Let me make another suit to take them on." He"s not even the best planner in the Avengers. In Black Panther #45 they both had time to plan beforehand and BP won the fight. So as far as this type of intelligence goes (cunning, scheming, strategy, etc), Batman is superior, even when you factor in a super smart AI assistant. The only way the Avengers can win (I am not making this up, this is your scenario) is if they steal the plans from a JL member, and implement them in basically a surprise attack. Yes, I agree. They would probably be successful. Also Batman could use those same plans and beat the JL by himself. So that tells me two things. 1: Its actually the Justice League beating the Justice League, and 2: The Avengers are as powerful as Batman minus the intelligence""

Ok here is my scenario. The Flash sneaks up on everyone while they are asleep and slit"s their throats, except that wouldn"t work on the Hulk or Thor. So for Bruce Banner he would use a knockout gas, and then take him to a containment chamber (probably in the Batcave somewhere) that is constantly pumping in more knockout gas so that he can never become the Hulk. Finally, Wonder Woman and Superman have picked up Mjolnir in JLA/Avengers. So they could both beat Thor into submission with his own weapon, after the Flash used his infinite mass punch to blindside Thor before he can grab his hammer. Yes a team of superheroes sneaking up on another will have a huge advantage. But that was clearly not in the spirit of this contest.

Now that we have the insanely one sided versions out of the way, we can talk about another possible conflict. We have already agreed that in a random battle, JL beat the Avengers. Batman made a contingency plan for the JL. Why wouldn"t he be able to make one for the weaker Avengers?
Debate Round No. 3
makandchis

Pro

We did not establish any kind of prep time. I don't concede to the fact that if they face each other with no prep time that the Avengers would lose. Also it is not the best thing to say you won when we are still debating please let other people to vote and decide.

I am going to quote you because you said " Batman creates contingency plans for the JL, all of whom have insane amounts of power in their own right, that could be carried out even by someone without super powers."

That means that even Black Widow could do it and it would not be a challenge to retrieve the contingency plans. Iron Man is smarter than Batman because he is a genius in engineering and computer science just to name a few while Batman is mostly focusing on being a detective to solve minor crimes in one city compared to Iron man. Iron man does not just settle in fighting crime in one city hiding in the shadows. Iron man created Jarvis on his side while Batman has Alfred. Jarvis is obviously smarter than Alfred in all aspects. This is why it is easy for Iron Man to get the contingency plans from the bat cave.

While fighting Batman Tony does not have to be there in battle he can control his suits from where ever he is at. He can send multiple suits to fight Batman at once for fun. Batman has to physically be there or he will not win the fight. While Tony is somewhere else he can access Batman computer or blow up his bat cave with his other suits for fun. This is not a challenge for Tony because he is smarter and more resourceful.

Your argument on Iron man making plans for the other Avengers if they went rogue is useless. Iron man is the smartest in the Avengers but there is no need to make contingency plans. Shield is the one who made the contingency plans in case if any of them went rogue. The Avengers movies are based from the comics Avengers 1-4 and in the movies Nick Fury is putting together contingency plans for Thor while they already have plans for the others. Iron man does not have to worry about plans because he already made suits for the Avengers. In Iron Man 3 Iron man called his suit in his sleep to protect him without trying which are based off the comics Extremis 1-4.

Even if the battle had prep time or not Tony can still access the computer because he does not have to being battle and even if he was in battle he can tell Jarvis to go through his computer by hacking Batman communications with Alfred which would be traced back to the bat cave and that is where the computer is at. Iron man can takes hits my Thor and his hammer made from a dying sun which has enough strength to block punches from Hulk and to fight Thanos.

Once Tony has the contingency plans then it is game over because Batman knows the plans will work.
Tony is also not afraid to kill because he makes weapons for the military and is known to kill in the comics.

For your scenario of flash cutting throats does not work for the Flash. He is a forensic scientist which means he does not kill. The Avengers are not afraid to kill because Cap fought in WW2, Black Widow is an assassin, Hulk smashes, Thor is a warrior, Hawkeye has bow and arrows and Scarlet Witch was born into war. Nothing is holding back the Avengers while the Justice League is against killing. This gives the Avengers the advantage. The battle will not last long enough for Batman to make plans for the Avengers.

Just to clarify the fight between Thor and Superman, the life span of Thor is about 5000 years while superman has a life span of an average human. Thor has thousands of years of fighting experience and he loves to fight in battle. He always looks for new challenges. On the other hand superman is young and does not have as much of combat experience like Thor does.Thor will be able to predict Supermans moves and have fun doing it.

https://www.youtube.com...

http://marvel.wikia.com...(Earth-616)

https://www.quora.com...

Quora is a person who posted an article about the movies and gave the sources on his article so it counts as reliable.
Wikia is based off the comics in their article.
The youtube video is based of Tower of Babel comics.
RIzzymoe

Con

Before resuming the debate, I want to applaud you thus far. I have seen many of these and the person starting them doesn"t even finish, but more than that, you are stepping up your arguments every time. OK, time in.

I declared myself winner in one specific scenario due to the fact that you changed things up and completely ignored my last argument. And looking back, I thought we were going with scenarios in which there was no prep time, but I agree we did not establish those rules so I cannot hold that against your argument. But your idea that your most recent scenario could happen without prep time is a little hard to follow. They meet randomly, and a fight ensues. So Tony Stark thinks, "Let me hack the Batcomputer (assuming he knew that was a thing and where to find it) and locate Batman"s contingency plans (assuming he knew those had already been created) for these people we are fighting." And then he would be able to put a nanite in WW"s ear, get fear toxin from the Scarecrow and use it on Aquaman, create and then hit the flash with a "vibra-bullet", and expose Superman to red kryptonite. There would have to be prior planning to the fight in order for Stark to know there was something to steal, and to steal it, and then implement it, and not get beaten by Superman or Cyborg in the process.

Yes Black Widow could in theory implement Batman"s contingency plans, but she couldn"t come up with them, which is my point.

And I am so confused as to your definition of being smarter and how that applies to situations. Yes Stark is super smart in the fields that you mentioned, but those fields weren"t strategy and scheming. Otherwise the Black Panther wouldn"t have been able to prep for and defeat Stark. Stephen Hawking is really smart when it comes to physics. It doesn"t mean he knows French, or politics, or religion, or how to cook. He may know those things, but it isn"t BECAUSE he is good in respect to physics. That is why I say regardless of Tony"s achievements, there are some things Batman is better at. Wait, I am confused. Does Iron Man not need to make contingency plans for the Avengers because Shield already has done it? Or does he not have to because he has already made suits to handle them? If the first happened he wouldn"t need to do the other. And as we have seen, his armors don"t actually work all the time. Thorbuster armor was beaten (Iron Man Volume 3 64 ) , Hulkbuster 2 armor was beaten (already showed that reference), Anti-Transformer armor was beaten (New Avengers Tranformers Vol 1.1 ). Batman"s plans were pretty much perfect the first time.

My argument about the Flash slitting people"s throats was a bit sarcastic. It was just showing how getting the jump on the other group fundamentally changed how this would go, and make it unfair to whichever team got that first strike advantage. Would you feel better if instead of the Flash killing his opponents he tied them to their beds really securely? Or just shattered all their limbs? The point is, if they aren"t expecting him, there isn"t anything they can do about him. Also, I did stipulate at the beginning that each character would be using the full capacity of their powers. And by that very nature if he is moving as fast as he can move, people will die when he punches them. Also, why does being a forensic scientist mean that you do not kill? He does not take an oath to "do no harm." Those are medical doctors.

As far as the rest of the JL goes, early Batman killed a lot, but not in his current form. However, he wouldn"t be needed for that anyway. Hawkeye has a bow and arrows? Well so does Green Arrow. Thor is a warrior? So is WW. Here is a list of the people she has killed since the Crisis on Infinite earth series. http://www.cbr.com.... Aquaman has no issues with killing his enemies. Superman doesn"t like to do it, but when he is facing someone in his league strength-wise he has killed (Doomsday). The Justice League (as a group) may not be exactly pro-killing. But they can make it happen when they need to. However Captain America has had a no-kill rule in the comics since the mid 70"s.

With all that said, The Flash wrecks most of your plans if you are to not have preparation before the fight. If you had set my lineup with Martian Manhunter instead of the Flash, I wouldn"t have even taken up the debate. He is the one problem that must be solved, and due to the fact that he can move and react faster than thought can happen, he has to be caught off guard to be defeated, especially if he is going all out. Scarlet Witch might be your heaviest hitter overall, with how they have evolved her powers over the years. But if she cant survive the first 333 nano seconds of the fight she can"t be of much use. So as far as I see it, the only way the Avenger's win is if they steal Batman's plans before the fight and prepare in advance.
Debate Round No. 4
makandchis

Pro

For this debate the real person we should focus on is Scarlet Witch. As you said we can use these characters to thei full potential I will use her to her full power.

At her peak she can manipulate reality. She can take away gravity or friction with ease. She can give visions to all the JL members which would render them weak.
One vision could make aqua man scared of water. For batman a vision about his parents would get him. For WW make her think she is fighting an equal. For super man let him see his parents and the rest are easy.

Also Thor is known to teleport with his hammer, travel at light speed, regenerate body parts and even control weather. There are more but those are for examples.
He also has thousands of years of combat experience. After a while of doing something you will eventually have a feel for it and it will seem natural for you. The same goes with Thor because he battles all the time so super man with just having about 30 years of experience means nothing Thor.

Thank you for this debate I was not able to post everything I wanted to stay due to the fact of being busy. In the future I will do this debate again but with different characters.
RIzzymoe

Con

Yes they have increased Scarlet Witch"s powers over the years (as they have with all characters really), and she has remade the universe a couple of times. Plus she kind of changed reality to allow herself and The Vision to have children. However the reason I said we would not count those types of powers is because it was something that was clearly used as a plot device to lead into a new series, as opposed to something in the character"s move set. Superboy Prime does not just use his "reality altering punch" move as a Mortal Kombat style fatality. It was used so that the DC universe could become more streamlined, similar to Scarlet Witch saying, "No more mutants", and drastically reducing the amount of mutants in the Marvel universe. However, after using it as a plot device, her power levels have since returned to normal, where she can no longer alter reality (Avengers: The Children"s Crusade 8). Which means although she is very powerful, she is no longer able to remove the powers of the JL, and she is still subject to a really fast punch in the face. The projecting visions thing is an interesting move. However that would still take probing to find out what their weaknesses were (she is not a telepath and couldn"t read their minds), or she would have to have researched the JL in advance to even try it, and hope the Flash didn"t see her first and perceive her to be a threat.

As far as Thor vs Superman goes, I fully admit Thor has some major advantages. However Wonder Woman is also thousands of years old, has magical weapons, and is a highly trained and skilled warrior. Neither one of them would be able to handle him on their own, but the combined powers would eventually wear him down.

I understand about the time issues, life happens. Thank you for this debate as well. I will look forward to following your debates in the future.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by C_e_e 1 year ago
C_e_e
I hate when debates end in a tie like this, http://www.debate.org... .
Posted by sboss18 1 year ago
sboss18
I'm not very knowledgeable on comic book superheroes, but how can the Flash lose to anyone?
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