The Instigator
alex0828
Pro (for)
Losing
12 Points
The Contender
OMGJustinBieber
Con (against)
Winning
17 Points

The Beatles are better than Justin Bieber

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 7 votes the winner is...
OMGJustinBieber
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/2/2011 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,672 times Debate No: 17744
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (13)
Votes (7)

 

alex0828

Pro

This round is for my opponent to accept and state their viewpoint, NOT for an argument. I believe that The Beatles were more revolutionary than Justin Bieber, have more talent, and will be popular long after Justin Bieber isn't.
OMGJustinBieber

Con

Out of principle, I don't reject challenges sent to me - especially not ones concerning defending the honor of Justin Bieber (this is at least my third debate on him). The viewpoint I will be defending will be CON on "The Beatles are better than Justin Bieber."

By Justin Bieber, I mean Justin Bieber & the band - past, present, and future.

Debate Round No. 1
alex0828

Pro

I thank my opponent for accepting and look forward to a good debate.
Firstly, the Beatles will be remembered for years to come. Justin Bieber is currently liked because he is young, cute, and has a girly voice. Ten years from now he will not have that and someone new will come along to take his place. I am not denying that he has talent but I believe my opponent likes him mainly because she is a teenage girl and that's who he appeals to.
Secondly, his lyrics are not deep, inspiring, nor do they make the listener really think. In fact, most of Justin Bieber's songs are simply poorly constructed teen break up scenarios, in his song "Baby" he repeats the same word during most of the song.

'and I was like...
Baby baby baby oh!
like, baby baby baby no!
thought you'd always be mine!'
VS.
Yesterday,
all my troubles seemed so far away,
Now it looks as though they're here to stay,
Oh I believe in yesterday.
Suddenly,
I'm not half the man I used to be,
There's a shadow hanging over me.
Oh yesterday came suddenly.
Why she had to go?
I don't know she wouldn't say.
I said something wrong,
now I long for yesterday.

The second set of lyrics are deep, relatable, and yet profound at the same time, yesterday is truly a beautiful song. To my opponent, I ask, if Justin Bieber sang "Yesterday" would you like it?

Thirdly, popularity, like I already stated. The Beatles have been popular for 40 years and when Justin grows up another teenage heartthrob will take his place. It has happened in the past. The Beatles are in the rock and roll hall of fame, whereas Justin Bieber will not likely end up. The Beatles have 20 #1 hits in the US and 50 songs that went into the to 40 chart positions.

Lastly, the Beatles were pioneers in many ways.
1. One of the first bands to make music videos mainstream.
2. Prior to them, the most popular pop singers drew their material from a pool of songwriters. (Elvis was notorious for this.)
3. Kids growing their hair long, the Beatles made this popular.
OMGJustinBieber

Con



Pro Case

1. The Beatles will be remembered for years to come.

This is likely true, but it is hardly saying much. So will musicians such as Roy Orbison (who I happen to believe has a much better voice than any of the Beatles), the B-52s, and perhaps even Rebecca Black. This claim is somewhat vacuous, and tells us little about the quality of a musical group.

2. Justin Bieber is liked for shallow reasons, and he will be forgotten.

Um, hello? Do you know how the Beatles started out? Women adored them. Did the phenomenon pass? Hardly. Even in their 60s or 70s the surviving members of the Beatles still host an enormous female fan base that remain stubbornly attracted to them. Singers grow as they mature, and assumptions about Bieber's place as a singer in the future are appeals to an unknown future.

3. The Beatles are deep.

"Yesterday" may be beautiful, but it is hardly deep. The song can be loosely summarized as "Life sucks now, and it was better in the past" - a thought that surely passes through the heads of middle aged men on a daily basis worldwide.

4. Popularity Argument

Again, popularity does not indicate "betterness." You have no way to determine the popularity of JB in the future since we lack the information. As specified in my opening argument, we are referring to Justin Bieber in the past, present, and FUTURE.

Con Case

1. Subjectivity of better: Pro has never clearly defined what "better" is. He appeals to popularity but Rebecca Black has over 150 million hits for her single "Friday"[1] making her an extremely popular artist.

2. Future uncertainty. The burden of proof is on Pro to prove that the Beatles are better than Justin Bieber past, present, and future. This was specified in my opening clause, as it would be blatantly unfair to pit the career of a group with over 40 years experience to one with 3. Pro must know Justin Bieber in the future!

[1]http://www.shinyshiny.tv...;
Debate Round No. 2
alex0828

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent for their rebuttal.

Before I begin I will point out that Con does NOT address the pioneerism and revolutionary style of the Beatles which is one of the most important parts of my argument. Also, note to Con, your reference link is a dead URL.

My opponent wishes for me to define better in this situation.

Better will refer to the following: more revolutionary, more skilled at song-writing, more legendary, effect on music for generations

1. Remembered for Years to come Rebuttal
My opponent's point about Roy Orbison and Rebecca Black does not refute my argument. Do either of them have a 2 hour slot on Sunday morning on the radio? Rebecca Black is a YouTube phenomenon, not a talented artist.

2. Shallow Reasons Rebuttal
I have never heard of any males who are in love with Justin Bieber. Almost all of his fans are females, whereas at least half of Beatles fans are male.

3. Deepness rebuttal
My opponent tries to sum up the meaning of "Yesterday" in one sentence. This is not what the song is about, it is his poetic and DEEP way of saying how he misses his mother who died when he was very young. He didn't know why she had to go, (why she had to die,) and now he "longs for yesterday," (when his mom was still alive.)

4. Future Uncertainty
The Beatles do not have 40 years of "experience," they became known towards the end of 1962 and disbanded in the middle of 1970, they have less than 8 years of "experience." Here is why it would be reasonable to say Bieber will not be popular very long. For the future, because the Beatles are so revolutionary they have impacted the music industy forever like i put in round 2 which my opponent did NOT address. What new style has Bieber brought to the table?

Lastly, The Beatles wrote all of their own songs, Justin Bieber does not write all of his own songs. You may say that their were four Beatles, but many of their songs that they performed were written by one of them.

1.http://b.qr.ae...
OMGJustinBieber

Con

I'm not able to address every single point Con mentions due to spacing limitations.

Pro has now stated his definition of better in the last round. Unfortunately, I don't agree with his premises. I believe a very talented band may remain unknown and have no effect on music for generations, lack a "legendary" following or be necessarily "revolutionary" but still be an excellent band.

Con Case

1. When have we validated artists by whether they have a 2 hour slot on Sunday morning radio? The Rebecca Black comment is a true scotsman fallacy. You clearly lay forth popularity as a criteria, but selectively shrug off RB as a "youtube phenomenon."

2. Source? I'm sorry to say, but your personal experience does not quite cut in making an argument.

3. I consider Yesterday to be beautiful, but not deep. I do not consider the mourning of a loved one to be considered a "deep" emotion. Deep songs express deep thoughts.

4. If the numbers you quote are true, then they have around 13 years of experience plus tours and songwriting in the post-Beatles period. The fact is, the Beatles have had a much longer time period to have their music exposed as opposed to a teenage Bieber.

You never mentioned "writing your own songs" as a criteria for betterment, so this would be irrelevant.

Conclusion

Pro never clearly defines his idea of better. He throws around the idea of popularity, but selectively dismisses Black because he does not like her. No where does he mention vocal qualities as a singer, which I personally weigh as crucial (much more than whether the band was fixated on changing the current musical atmosphere, i.e. revolutionary). Obviously Pro never counters my point about knowing Bieber past, present, and future because he has no idea. Unfortunately, the premise was laid out in the first round and he had nothing to dispute. The burden of proof was entirely on Pro, and through his own murky, changing definitions and inability to know future Bieber he has not fulfilled it. Sources in comments.
Debate Round No. 3
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by beatles64 4 years ago
beatles64
I can't tell what to be more upset about, whether or not this was an actual debate, or that Con won because Pro couldn't debate well....
Posted by alex0828 5 years ago
alex0828
Well can you finish one more debate within 5 days?
Posted by Doulos1202 5 years ago
Doulos1202
If I could vote all points would be awarded to Pro. My reason being Justin beiber cannot compete with not only The beatles fan base, record achievments, instruments, and lyrics.
Posted by Doulos1202 5 years ago
Doulos1202
Justin Bieber is dirt in between the cracks of Paul Mcartney's boot... Justin Beiber will never outlive the Beatles.
Posted by alex0828 5 years ago
alex0828
Inferno, you should vote
Posted by inferno 5 years ago
inferno
This battle is not even worth the time. How can you compare Justin Bieber to the incomparable and legendary Beatles ? ?
It is utterly ridiculous !
Posted by OMGJustinBieber 5 years ago
OMGJustinBieber
What this debate boils down to is aesthetic objectivity. You should read my earlier debate with Vantrigar about that topic. If I believe JB is better, it's because I've presupposed criteria that places him in that position. The real question is the objective value of criticisms pertaining to a presupposed criteria.
Posted by alex0828 5 years ago
alex0828
That would be convenient to you considering you can't defend an artist that doesn't write all of their own songs.
Posted by OMGJustinBieber 5 years ago
OMGJustinBieber
The thing is, you kept revising definitions of "better" so I chose the one that didn't include song-writing ability.
Posted by alex0828 5 years ago
alex0828
In your round 3 argument you said songwriting was irrelevant when I CLEARLY stated that "better" would refer to songwriting ability. The Beatles obviously could write better than he could considering he doesn't even write all of his songs.
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Vote Placed by randolph7 5 years ago
randolph7
alex0828OMGJustinBieberTied
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Total points awarded:24 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct point against Pro for ad hominem. Pro had better sources. Con proved her case and tore down most of pro’s case.
Vote Placed by blackhawk1331 5 years ago
blackhawk1331
alex0828OMGJustinBieberTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: I think the Beatles, and every other one of the roughly 200 bands on my ipod, are better than Justin Bieber. That being said, Con made better arguments because I could see their point well.
Vote Placed by joshizinfamous 5 years ago
joshizinfamous
alex0828OMGJustinBieberTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: To justify,pro, learn use of commas. Con Defenetly had the better arguments on many points.
Vote Placed by Cobo 5 years ago
Cobo
alex0828OMGJustinBieberTied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro actually argued instead of trying to bend the deabte, plus broken link.
Vote Placed by larztheloser 5 years ago
larztheloser
alex0828OMGJustinBieberTied
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Total points awarded:52 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct is for ad hom. Sources for broken link. Pro argued pros and cons of both, con argued better is subjective and future uncertainty. I felt the latter was contingent on pro's case, because a future in music depends on how good one is. Pro defined better, way too late, but under his definition musicians from generations ago always win. I found neither team's explanation of better convincing, so all pro had to do was win one good thing. For me, pioneering was that thing. Very close aff win.
Vote Placed by thett3 5 years ago
thett3
alex0828OMGJustinBieberTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con wins with "Obviously Pro never counters my point about knowing Bieber past, present, and future because he has no idea.", Pro cold not meet his burden of proof to affirm the resolution. Also Justin Bieber <3
Vote Placed by 000ike 5 years ago
000ike
alex0828OMGJustinBieberTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Conduct - Pro is guilty of Argumentum Ad Hominem: he said that Con likes justin bieber because she is a teenage girl. Pro's assessment of deep lyrics was far more sound than Con's, but Pro made baseless assertions on Justin Bieber's future. Pro's argument on the revolutionary status of the beatles was convincing, but con was correct in pointing out pro's negligence in defining "better". Ultimately, the two were equally matched with the same amount of attributes and fallacies.