The Instigator
daley
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
The_Reformation
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

The Bible Does not teach that Sunday or Saturday is the Lord's Day, but that this Day is yet to Come

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/21/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,400 times Debate No: 20526
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (5)
Votes (0)

 

daley

Pro

The Bible teaches that the Lord's Day is a future time associated with the Coming of the Lord, not Saturday, not Sunday, not the Sabbath. My opponent must defend his position that either the Sabbath, Saturday or Sunday, is the Lord's day. He may choose to begin his defense in the first or second round. We must both share the burden of proof. He or she must be or profess to be a Christian.
The_Reformation

Con

I will take this argument against my opponent and stand that the Bible DOES teach there is a Sabbath on the seventh day (Saturday), and that the Lord's Day To Come (called "The Day of The Lord/Day Of Judgement") my opponent refers to is something entirely different.

Now in regards to the Sabbath, ( Exodus 31:15 "Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death." Leviticus 23:3 "Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work. It is a Sabbath to the LORD in all your dwelling places." Exodus 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." Hebrews 4:9 "So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Deuteronomy 5:12 "Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you." -Bible, English Standard Version.

The Sabbath is established twice in the Bible first in Exodus 31:15 then reworded once again in Leviticus 23:3. It is very cleary established as the seventh day, meaning Saturday, and holy to the Lord. Holy meaning set apart,
"specially recognized as or declared sacred by religious use or authority; consecrated" - Dictionary.com. The Day was set apart and consecrated by the Lord, leading it to be called "The Lord's Day". The Sabbath is not directly called "The Lord's Day" in the Bible, at least not in the ESV (English Standard Version). It is, however, often called "The Lord's Day" by the church, sharing the same name as "The Day of the Lord", or "The Day Of Judgment".

Now the "Day of The Lord" or "Day Of Judgment" speaks prophtically of the day the Lord Jesus Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead. I have cross referenced the NIV (New International Version) of the Bible and the term "The Lord's Day" again never appears once. By experience in several churches (Pentacostal, Charismatic, Reformed, Baptist) over the years, The term "The Lord's Day" has always been used to refer to either "The Sabbath" or "The Lord's Coming Day of Judgement/ Day of the Lord". Such instances of this day are recorded like this;

Isaiah 13:6
"Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty." The great day of the LORD is near— near and coming quickly. Zephaniah 1:14 "The cry on the day of the LORD is bitter; the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry." Joel 1:15 "Alas for that day! For the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty." Ezekiel 30:3 "For the day is near, the day of the LORD is near— a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations." 2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare."

This "Day of the the Lord" is the same day as "The Day of Judgment" mentioned later on the The New Testament. 2 Peter 2:9 "if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment." Matthew 12:36 "But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken." 2 Peter 3:7 " By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly." Romans 2:5 " But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed." -Bible, NIV New International Version.

Analyzing these two names "Day of the Lord" and "Day of Judgement", I believe I have provided insurmountable truth that both these terms crossreferenced in the Bible are in fact the same day. Both speak of God's second coming and destruction/ wrath/ punishment against the ungodly.

In conclusion, neither "days" have been written in the Bible specifically as "The Lord's Day" although they are both referred to as such in context of Scripture. Therefore, this negates my oponent's claim that there is a "Lord's Day" in The Bible, as well as providing the true meaning of both days, "The Sabbath" and "Day yet to Come" in which my opponent was refering to.

Debate Round No. 1
daley

Pro

According to Col 2:14 "the handwriting of ordinances" was blotted out, nailed to the cross. The fourth commandment was indeed an order, a rule, a law, made by the government of heaven, made by an authority (God) to rest on the seventh day, therefore, it surely was an ordinance. Because such ordinances were abolished, Christians are to let no one judge them regarding festivals, new moons, or Sabbaths. (Col 2:16-17) If such ordinances were binding on believers, they could rightly be judged by elders in the church about not observing them, or not observing them correctly. The mere fact they are not to be judged in such matters shows they are not binding, as the text says in verse 17, these are "a shadow of things to come." The Sabbath was one of the many shadows that found fulfillment in Christ and is thus no longer necessary.

Eph 2:15 "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments." The law of commandments has been abolished, that would include the Sabbath. Hence, Rom 14:5 says, "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let each man be fully persuaded in his own mind." So the observance of days is a personal choice left up to preference, but this wouldn't be the case if one day were holy and others were not. The Bible does teach the end of the law of Moses with its Sabbath requirement at Hebrews 8:13 which speaks of the old covenant as vanishing away. What is the old covenant? "And he wrote upon the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments." (Exo 34:28)

What's more, the Sabbath is never identified as being the Lord's day in the Bible, but the time of Christ's coming is indeed identified as his day, for it itself is called "the day of the Lord." (2 Pet 3:10; 1 Cor 1:8; 1 Thess 5:2) The Lord's day is therefore a future event and not part of a weekly cycle.

At Hebrews 4:4-6, Paul quotes Genesis 2:2 and shows that God's creation rest is another rest distinct from the weekly Sabbath, saying, "Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached ENTERED NOT in because of unbelief." (Hebrews 4:6) Notice Paul says that the Israelites ENTERED NOT into God's rest because of unbelief. The Israelites did indeed keep the weekly Sabbath, as Exodus 16:30 says, "So the people rested on the seventh day." If they didn't keep it, they would have been stoned to death. (Numbers 15:32-36) While they did keep the weekly Sabbath, they did not enter into God's creation rest. So here is the distinction, one rest they entered, the other rest they did not. Notice also that God's creation rest is not a weekly experience, but a "Today" experience. "Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, Today, after so long a time; as it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. [Psalm 95:7-8]" (Hebrews 4:7) After such a long time since God entered his rest at the end of creation, God was still resting. There is no Biblical record that God began working for another six days, or that God works every six days of every week and stops working at sunset. In fact, this would be ridiculous since the sun sets at different times in each time zone, so which sunset would God be following anyway?

So it is quite obvious that since God rested from his creative works, that he continues to rest, and the opportunity to enter that rest has been open from the time of Israel, for it was FIRST preach to them (Hebrews 4:6), and in David's time people were still offered to enter into it. (Psalm 95)

At the conclusion of each of the creative days there is the statement, "And the evening and the morning were" the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth day, indicating that they ended. (Genesis 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31) This statement is not made concerning the seventh day indicating that it continued. Hence, from God's standpoint, his rest day is still continuing, and he calls it "Today" in Hebrews 4:7; after so long a time it was still "Today," as Paul says, "But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." (Hebrews 4:13) Everyday is called "Today," hence he says, daily, WHILE it is called "Today." How much more plainly could he say that this is a "today" experience and not a weekly ritual?

My opponent cites Deu 5:12, but doesn't mention verse 15. Here we learn the reason the Sabbath was given, to commemorate Israel's deliverance from Egypt. Christians have never been slaves in Egypt. This command was only given to the nation of Israel and isn't binding on the rest of us. (Ps 147:19-20)

My opponent claims "The Sabbath… is, however, often called "The Lord's Day" by the church, sharing the same name as "The Day of the Lord", or "The Day Of Judgment."" I wonder which denomination he means when he says "the church"? Certainly not the one the early church fathers like Barnabas, Ignatius, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, and so on belonged to, for these thought that the 1st day was the Lord's day. But the question isn't "what do some denominations say is the Lord's day?" but "what does the Bible say" is the Lord's day? The time of judgment and Christ's coming is called "day of the Lord," never is the Sabbath called by this or similar terms.

Con is also off based when he claims that the time of Christ's coming is never called "the Lord's day," it is, at Rev 1:10. Notice John was "in the Spirit." It was by divine revelation John was in this future time beholding events yet to happen such as the coming of Jesus on the clouds (Rev 1:7) and many other things. .Nothing in the context of Revelation 1:10 mentions the Sabbath or Sunday, but it does mention the coming of Christ which will bring about all the destruction of the ungodly as promised in all the other "day of the Lord passages," and this coming will be "as a thief" as in all the other day of the Lord passages. . (2 Peter 3:10; Joel 2:31; Zephaniah 1:14-18; 1 Thess 5:2; Isa 2:12; Eze 30:3-4; Zechariah 14:1-4) Common sense dictates that "the day of the Lord," linguistically speaking, means "the Lord's day."
The_Reformation

Con


Pro has basically backed up MY argument in his own. I fail to see where this argument is going, (especially for five rounds…), but I will stand that my first argument remains adamant and proves infallibly that “The Lord’s Day” formally means neither The Day of Judgment nor Sabbath, rather it is a name used informally by the church today to address both. (I know.. a little confusing..)


I will address some arguments my opponent actually placed against me.



“The Sabbath was one of the many shadows that found fulfillment in Christ and is thus no longer necessary.”


True. However, my opponent’s argument was to prove the Lord’s Day is not a Saturday or Sunday but a day to come, not whether the Sabbath is necessary or not. Irrelevant statement.


“What's more, the Sabbath is never identified as being the Lord's day in the Bible, but the time of Christ's coming is indeed identified as his day, for it itself is called "the day of the Lord.”


This was already stated by me in the last round.. I’m confused as to what you’re arguing exactly.


“My opponent claims "The Sabbath… is, however, often called "The Lord's Day" by the church, sharing the same name as "The Day of the Lord", or "The Day Of Judgment."" I wonder which denomination he means when he says "the church"?”


I mean most denominations of Christianity. It’s an informal expression they use often to refer to either “The Day of The Lord/ Day of Judgment” or “The Sabbath/ day they hold their services(Sunday)”.


There’s not much else to say, I have proved in my previous argument that the resolution has been affirmed for the Con’s side. This debate is unclear to begin with as the Pro is misunderstood and does not realized, again, that “The Lord’s Day” is a name used to describe both the “Day of the Lord/Day of Judgment AND the Sabbath BUT biblically speaking.. it’s not the true name for either day and is only used informally.


I also have another interesting contention for my opponent.. Now that my resolution has been established and my opponent is still confused as to the nature of this debate, I’d like to throw this wildcard out there that caters to his point of view of the argument...


Suppose the Day of The Lord (Day of Judgment) in the future you been speaking of ended up happening on a Saturday or Sunday, around Sabbath time? By your own logic and by probable chance the future day could just as well be on a Saturday or Sunday and coincidentally be the same day! This infallibly refutes your claim. Your argument is flawed and has been, beyond a shadow of a doubt, negated.


Debate Round No. 2
daley

Pro

As Pro in this debate I am defending two point: 1, that neither the Sabbath or Sunday is the Lord's Day; and 2, that the Lord's Day is yet to come. Now Con agrees with my second point but disagrees with my first. He claims that the Sabbath is the Lord's Day, which indeed is what Con is supposed to do as I pointed out in the rules. He brings no Biblical evidence to show that the Sabbath is what the Bible calls "the Lord's Day." He makes the blanket claim that most churches apply the term "Lord's Day" to the Sabbath, but this is not true. Most Christian denominations including Pentecostal, Baptist, Methodist, Weslyan Holiness, Nazarene, and so on, regard Sunday as the Lord's Day. They call Saturday the Sabbath, but never call it "the Lord's Day." What's more, this debate is not about what most denominations say as if numbers made you right; rather, its about what the Bible says, hence the title of this debate: The Bible Does not teach that Sunday or Saturday is the Lord's Day, but that this Day is yet to Come.

The fact is, the term "Lord's Day" is used in the Bible in reference to the time of Christ's coming at Revelation 1:7, 10. The Bible never uses this term for the weekly sabbath, therefore, the Sabbath is not the Lord's day. Con agrees that the Sabbath was abolished at the cross, therefore, what Lord's Day was John talking about at Revelation 1:10? Certainly not the sabbath. Since the sabbath is not binding on Christians (as Con admits), then Christians today do not have the seventh day as the Lord's day, it would be meaningless to call it that because its not a day we observe.

As to the matter of what if the Lord returns on Saturday or Sunday, this doesn't help Con's position to argue from the what if. He hasn't shown us that the Lord's day will be a 24-hr day anyway. And if it were to fall on the seventh day, it still wouldn't be on the sabbath because Christians do not have a weekly sabbath. If Con cares to present evidence that Jesus will return on a Saturday, I'd look forward to it.
The_Reformation

Con

The_Reformation forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
daley

Pro

Please vote Pro. My argument has been unrefuted.
The_Reformation

Con

The_Reformation forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
daley

Pro

daley forfeited this round.
The_Reformation

Con

The_Reformation forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by The_Reformation 5 years ago
The_Reformation
DO NOT VOTE PRO. I did not forfeit of my own accord I have been extremely busy between work and college and haven't had time to post my rebuttal. Hopefully I will respond tonight, Thank you potential voters and relax daley you haven't won nor will you.
Posted by Mr.Infidel 5 years ago
Mr.Infidel
Daley just got OWNED!
Posted by Wandile 5 years ago
Wandile
Haha yeah I too want to see what he has to put forward. He must have something up his sleeve.
Posted by The_Reformation 5 years ago
The_Reformation
Wow, Wandile, those were my thoughts exactly. I have taken the argument and pointed out exactly where both days are used in the Bible and though the argument he posed in itself is a tad structurally flawed, but I a curious to see the response.
Posted by Wandile 5 years ago
Wandile
MHO this debate is pointless.

Reason : it is based on a misunderstanding of the informal expression, "the Lord's day", that Christians apply to their day of worship. Christians call it (informally) the Lord's day because it is the one day of the week that we give to the Lord, hence "the Lord's day".

Christians are well aware that "The Day of the Lord" expression in the Bible is referring to Judgement day which is a future event. This is the formal understanding of the expression.

Your debate is thus, a straw man as it is forcing two completely unopposed expressions , one formal and one informal, to oppose each other. You are setting yourself up for a win.
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