The Instigator
daley
Pro (for)
Winning
12 Points
The Contender
IamZero
Con (against)
Losing
1 Points

The Bible Teaches the Holy Spirit is a Person

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/12/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,520 times Debate No: 15904
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (25)
Votes (2)

 

daley

Pro

My first opponent "Blynnd" has existed the debate on this subject. Any other takers will have the advantage of reading our previous debate to see how I replied to his objections. So, let's see if anyone out there can show that the Bible does not teach the Holy Spirit is a person. The same evidence remains unrefuted and open to any challengers.

Let's not waste space detailing lots of rules for this debate. Let's just deal with the evidence.

Wikipedia defines person this way: "A person (plural: persons or people; from Latin: persona, meaning "mask")[1] is a human being, or an entity that has certain capacities or attributes associated with personhood, for example, in a particular moral or legal context.[2] Such capacities or attributes can include agency, self-awareness, a notion of the past and future, and the possession of rights and duties, among others."

The deinition I find concise is a being which posesses intelligence, rationality and consciousness. This definition still squares well with wikipedia.

The Holy Spirit has a Mind and Knowledge (intelligence)

And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:27)

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (1Corinthians 2:11)

The Holy Spirit Reasons (rationality)

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; (Acts 15:28)

The Holy Spirit is Self-Aware (consciousness)

As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. (Acts 13:2)

This should be sufficient to prove that the Holy Spirit is a Person, but I'll continue to build the case.

Any oppoent who accepts this challenge needs to state if he agrees with my criteria for pesonhood; and if he doesn't, he must state what his criteria is, and show that the Holy Spirit does not fit this criteria. He must also show why his criteria is preferred over mine.

In Acts 13:2 (quoted above) the Holy Spirit refers to Himself as "me" (Gk: moi) and also "I" ("I have called" – Gk: proskeklēmai). Likewise in John 15:26 and 16:13, the Holy Spirit is referred to by the masculine pronoun "He" (Gk: ekeinos). Thus we have a personal Spirit.

We must also take into account that the Holy Spirit has emotions—for example, The Holy Spirit Loves (Romans 15:30) and can be Grieved (Isaiah 63:10; Ephesians 4:30). Emotions are personal characteristics, not impersonal.

To add to the evidence I would mention that the Holy Spirit Speaks (2 Samuel 23:1; Acts 8:29; 1Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 3:7-8; Revelation 2:7). He can be Lied to (Acts 5:3), Resisted (Acts 7:51), Tested (Acts 5:9), and Blasphemed (Matthew 12:32).

We can also see the personality of the Holy Spirit in His many functions. Functionally the Holy Spirit Witnesses (Acts 5:32, 1John 5:7), Glorifies Jesus (John 16:14), Teaches (John 14:26; 15:26), Makes Intercession (Romans 8:26), Anoints (1John 2:27), Appoints (Acts 20:28), and Convicts the world of sin (John 16:8). Surely these are not impersonal acts. The Holy Spirit even send out disciples to work. (Acts 13:4)

Now, we know that the angel Satan is a peron; but there is more evidence for the Holy Spirit being a person than there is for Satan; so I'm asking if someone can show me one piece of criteria for personhood that Satan meets that the Holy Spirit does not?

I do not believe this evidence as presented above can be overturned.
I look forward to any reasons anyone can find in the Bible why the Holy Spirit is not a person; and if he is not a person, what is he? Prove it by the Bible; any takers?
IamZero

Con

Do you agree with this definition: A person is someone who has been born like any other person.

How can a Holy Spirit be a person? That's contradictory. Either the Bible lies and He's not a spirit, or he is, and therefore not a person.

The idea that a spirit is a person is laughable.
Debate Round No. 1
daley

Pro

"Do you agree with this definition: A person is someone who has been born like any other person?"

No, I don't agree with this definition for the following reasons.

(1) A caesarean section (c-section) is a surgical procedure in which a baby is born through an incision (cut) made in the mother's abdominal wall and the wall of the uterus (womb). Your baby may need to be born by caesarean section if there are serious problems that prevent the baby being born by a normal vaginal birth. Obviously such a baby is not born like any other person because most persons are not born that way, yet, despite the manner of his birth, despite not being born the same way any other person, he is still a person.

(2) Three men appeared to Abraham in Genesis 18:1-22. Men for sure are persons, but these persons were not born like any other human. They were not born at all. These were two angels and Yahweh himself. God wasn't born, nor were these two angels, yet, it was three persons Abraham saw. This shows a being can be a person without being born.

(3) God created Adam from the dust of the earth and he made Eve from Adam's rib. (Gen 2:7, 18-23) None of them were "born like any other person," and yet both of them were persons. Adam and Eve were two persons who were never born from a woman's womb like any other person usually is, which means that being a person is independent of how one was born. Therefore I reject any definition of person that requires the subject to be born in a certain fashion, or to be born at all, to qualify as a person.

(4) The term "someone" is another way of saying "some person," and you cannot define the word "person" as "a person." This definition is surely a tautology, a meaningless repetition, which does not tell you what the "person" is that was born. You are attempting to define a person as a person, and then adding that this person was born; but what is the "someone [the person]" that was born? I don't see that you have really given a clear definition of a person. By saying that a person is "someone who has been born like any other person," you are only saying that a person is "[a person] who has been born like any other [person.]" You are using the word "person" to define the word "person."

The word "someone" is merely a pronoun substitute for "person," not a definition of the word. That's like using the pronoun "something" to define the word "box."

Even if I accept your definition of person, you have not refuted that the definition I cited from Wikipedia is not also a valid meaning of the word. Wikipedia defines the word person as "an entity that has certain capacities or attributes associated with personhood, for example, in a particular moral or legal context.[2] Such capacities or attributes can include agency, self-awareness, a notion of the past and future, and the possession of rights and duties, among others." I have shown the Holy Spirit fits this definition because he has he attributes normally attributed to persons and is therefore a person. Since you have not refuted this definition, it stands as a valid definition in this debate; and since it is a valid definition, and the Holy Spirit fits this definition, then the Holy Spirit is a person.

Further, the definition of "person" as a "human" is only a secondary, later meaning of the word person.

The Oxford Dictionary says: "Person Latin persona a mask used by a player, a character acted; in later use, a human being….A part played in drama, or in life; hence, function, office, capacity: guise, semblance, character in a play or story."

Wikipedia: "Prosopon (pronounced /ˈprɒsɵpɒn/[1] or /prɵˈsoʊpən/,[2] from Ancient Greek: πρόσωπον; plural: Ancient Greek: πρόσωπα - prosopa) is a technical term encountered in Greek theology. It is most often translated as "person", and as such is sometimes confused in translation with hypostasis, which is also translated as "person." Prosopon originally meant "face" or "mask" in Greek and derives from Greek theatre, in which actors on a stage wore masks to reveal their character and emotional state to the audience." So the original meaning of "person" both in Greek and English is that of a character or role, and using this original definition, I have shown the Holy Spirit is a character: he has feelings and preferences etc. Also note Wikipedia's mention of the "emotional state," and I have shown the Holy Spirit does have emotions: he grieves, he loves, he gets angry. (Eph 4:30; Rom 15:30; Isa 63:10)

"How can a Holy Spirit be a person? That's contradictory. Either the Bible lies and He's not a spirit, or he is, and therefore not a person. The idea that a spirit is a person is laughable."

Angels are spirits (Heb 1:7, 14), therefore, by your argument, angels are not persons. Yet, the angel Gabriel who spoke to Mary was definitely a person. (Luke 1:26-38) If this was not a person carrying on conversation with Mary, then what was it? Also, Satan is a spirit, yet he is presented as a person in Job 1-2. So if spirits are not persons, then God and the angels are not persons at all, because they are spirits too.

The Greek word for person "prosopon" which is used for persons at Matt 22:16; Mark 12:14; Luke 20:21; 2 Cor 1:11; 2 Cor 2:10; Gal 2:6 and Jude 16 is used of God (who is a Spirit [John 4:24]), at Exo 15:3 and Heb 9:24. This shows spirits can be persons too.

Also, the Bible tells us that when we separate from our bodies we will be "present with the Lord." (2 Cor 5:6-8) Paul tells us that "to die" and "depart" to be with Christ is better than living in the flesh. (Phil 1:21-25) No doubt because the souls and spirits of the righteous will live on. (Matt 10:28) We are shown such souls which have left their bodies still living in Revelation 6:9-11. No doubt these spirits were persons, which again shows that a spirit can be a person. The rich man, Lazarus, Abraham and the angels were definitely persons in Luke 16:19-31, yet these were not fleshly bodies, but spirits.

Also, I have shown in my first post that the characteristics of the Holy Spirit are the same as those of a person. The Holy Spirit does what only person can do. He can be lied to (Acts 5:3-4), and he speaks (Acts 13:2), he witnesses (Acts 5:32, 1John 5:7), Glorifies Jesus (John 16:14), Teaches (John 14:26; 15:26), Makes Intercession (Romans 8:26), Anoints (1John 2:27), Appoints (Acts 20:28), and Convicts the world of sin (John 16:8). Surely these are not impersonal acts. The Holy Spirit even sends out disciples to work. (Acts 13:4) Since these are personal acts, we can conclude that the Holy Spirit is therefore a person.

My opponent offers no alternative to show what the Holy Spirit is because there is no alternative. Only a person can do what the Holy Spirit does. He has not shown my definition of "person" to be false, he has not shown that the Holy Spirit does not fit this definition, nor has he shown any reason why a spirit cannot be a person.

This debate is entitled "THE BIBLE TEACHES the Holy Spirit is a person;" and Con has made the same mistake Blynnd did by not relying on the Bible. Where does the Bible say that a spirit is not a person? He has given no Scriptural support for this idea, thus, it is only his opinion. I have shown examples of spirit persons in the Bible. So my position is Biblical.

And where does he get his definition for person anyway? He cites no dictionary or Scripture; therefore, I can dismiss his definition as his personal opinion. I also ask my opponent, what is the Holy Spirit? Is it a force? Is it an animal? If it isn't a person, then what is it? My opponent claims the Holy Spirit can't be a person but doesn't even attempt to tell us what it is. Please tell us, and do it by Scripture. This debate is not about if my opponent thinks the Holy Spirit is a person, nor about if it makes sense to claim the Holy Spirit is a person; but rather, this debate is about weather the Bible teaches the Holy Spirit is a person. My opponent has only presented an argument from logic; namely, "he thinks" it is laughable for a spirit to be a person; but his thinking that doesn't prove that the Bible teaches that. I challenge him to show where the Bible says that a spirit is not a person. I look forward to hearing your argument.
IamZero

Con

Your trying to twist my words. When I say born like any other, I mean born with a physical body. The method doesn't matter.

You also misinterpret Genesis 18:1-22. The "men" were simply in the form of men. If the Lord showed himself in his true form, Abraham would have been incinerated.

Adam and Eve were people, but they weren't born simply because there was nobody to give birth to them.

You never provided evidence how a spirit can be a person.

If the definition of person is so vague, why are we arguing over it? You picked something that couldn't, according to you, be defined so easily, ensuring you win.
Debate Round No. 2
daley

Pro

"Your trying to twist my words. When I say born like any other, I mean BORN with a physical body. The method doesn't matter."

I did not twist my opponent's words. These are his exact words.

"Do you agree with this definition: A person is someone who has been born LIKE any other person." Notice that Con doesn't say that a person is someone who has been born IN THE FORM (or IN A PHYSICAL BODY) like any other person;" rather, he simply says "born LIKE any other person," which would lead me to believe he is talking about the method of their birth.

Also, note that his definition of person involves being BORN; he was the one who said a "person is someone who has been BORN like any other person;" and I gave him examples of persons who were not BORN. Adam and Eve were not born, yet they were persons, so these persons do not fit his definition of what a person is.

My opponent still has not refuted or even disagreed with my definition of person, so it still stands until he presents evidence against it. Notice that I took my definition of person from a standard dictionary and wikipedia. I have also shown that the Holy Spirit fits the original definition of a person. He has refuted none of this.

He says that a spirit cannot be a person, but notice my opponent does not define what a spirit is! 1 Corinthians 15:45 "The first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." Now, here the last Adam is a spirit. Are you going to tell me that the last Adam (Jesus Christ) is not a person? If not, then a spirit can be a person. Please tell us, what is a spirit? Let's see if Con can tell us.

So far, Con has not told us WHY a spirit cannot be a person.

"You also misinterpret Genesis 18:1-22. The "men" were simply in the form of men. If the Lord showed himself in his true form, Abraham would have been incinerated."

So now my opponent is telling me that the Lord himself is not a person. I already refuted this. I said "The Greek word for person "prosopon" which is used for persons at Matt 22:16; Mark 12:14; Luke 20:21; 2 Cor 1:11; 2 Cor 2:10; Gal 2:6 and Jude 16 is used of God (who is a Spirit [John 4:24]), at Exo 15:3 and Heb 9:24. This shows spirits can be persons too." My opponent made no response to this. Notice how the NWT renders these verses:

"Jehovah is a manly PERSON (prosopon) of war." (Exo 15:3)
"Now to appear before the PERSON (prosopon) of God for us." (Heb 9:24)

This word, prosopon, means "person," example:

"For thou regardeth not the person (prosopon) of men." (Matt 22:16, KJV)
"By the means of many persons (prosopon) thanks may be given." (2 Cor 1:11, KJV)

So I have shown where God is called a person in the Bible. Con made no rebuttal to this, therefore this evidence still stands until he can knock it down.

Wikipedia defines person this way: "A person (plural: persons or people; from Latin: persona, meaning "mask")[1] is a human being, OR an ENTITY that has certain capacities or attributes associated with personhood, for example, in a particular moral or legal context.[2] Such capacities or attributes can include agency, self-awareness, a notion of the past and future, and the possession of rights and duties, among others."

There are 2 definitions of person given here. So even though I agree that a person is a human, that isn't the ONLY definition of the word. The word person also means "an ENTITY that has certain capacities or attributes associated with personhood," and I have shown my opponent this definition in the encyclopedia. Unless he can show me that the Holy Spirit does not fit this definition of person, he cannot show that the Holy Spirit is not a person!

Con do you agree, or disagree with this other definition of person? If so, why? You need to tell us! Are the people who write the dictionaries so dumb that they don't know what a person is, and you are so intelligent that you know how to define words better than they do?

I'm not arguing what a person is not a human, I am saying that isn't the only definition of the word! My opponent is dogmatically asserting that "a human who was born like other humans" is the ONLY definition of person. He gives no proof, nor does he try to shoot down the definition that I present from reliable sources. Anyone reading this debate can see that.

Even though God is a spirit (John 4:24), he is a person. God has the characteristics of personality (intellect, emotion, and will). God is not mere energy nor blind force nor the sum total of everything (pantheism). God is a person who speaks and hears and blesses! The Bible clearly states that God knows. In Psalm 139:1-6 we read, "Thou has searched me and known me; thou knowest my downsitting and uprising." The Scriptures state too that God feels (both wrath and love). Nahum 1:2 and John 3:16 show the contrast. The Bible also says that God wills. In 1 Thessalonians 4:3 we read, "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification." Knowledge, emotion, and will are the traits of personality. God is not some cloudy, hazy, indefinite, blindly operating, omnipotent Force. God is a living, loving Person who speaks and hears and blesses.

The Bible calls him Father. (Matt 6:9) A Father by definition is a person who has children. This proves that a spirit can be a person. The same is true of the Holy Spirit:

The Holy Spirit is our Comforter. Jesus said: "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever." (John 14:16)

Comforter by definition is a PERSON that comforts; and in this verse Jesus calls this comforter a "HE," showing this is a PERSONAL being. Also, it is significant he calls him "another," Comforter. The Greek word here for "another" is allos, meaning "another of the same kind." Jesus was a person, so this Comforter being of the same kind would obviously be a person too.

"Adam and Eve were people, but they weren't born simply because there was nobody to give birth to them."

Why they were not born is irrelevant. The point is that these were persons without being born, therefore, a being can be a person without being born. Also, let me ask, is a nine-months-old baby 2 hours before delivery a person? Or will he only become a person after he is born two hours later? The fact is, being a person has nothing to do with weather or not you were born! Therefore, your definition of person fails, and mine stands. Mine stands not because yours fails, but because you presented no evidence against my definition!

Con sites no evidence to back up his claim that a person has to be BORN like other humans, nor does he cite any evidence from the Bible, dictionary, or anywhere else that a spirit cannot be a person. Con wants us to take his word for it; but in a debate like this he has to do better than that!

"You never provided evidence how a spirit can be a person."

I sure did,

(1) I gave a standard dictionary definition of person: "an ENTITY that has certain capacities or attributes associated with personhood."

(2) I gave Scriptures where the Holy Spirit matched this defintion: Rom 8:27; 1 Cor 2:11; Acts 15:28; 5:2-4; 13:2-4; Isa 63:10; Eph 4:30; Rom 8:26 etc.

(3) I showed you where in the Bible God, who is a Spirit (John 4:24) is called prosopon, a person. Exo 15:3; Heb 9:24

You on the other hand have given not even one Scripture to support any of your claims, even though the title of the debate implies that the Bible is the main source of evidence; debate title: The BIBLE TEACHES the Holy Spirit is a Person

"If the definition of person is so vague, why are we arguing over it? You picked something that couldn't, ACCORDING TO YOU, be defined so easily, ensuring you win."

Where did I say in this debate that "person" cannot be easily defined? I dare you to QUOTE my exact words where I said that the definition of person is vague or cannot be easily define! In fact, I gave dictionary definitions of the word.
IamZero

Con

Like I said, obviously Adam and Eve weren't born in the conventional way, there was nobody to give birth to them. If your not going to refute my main points, why am I debating with you?
If by person you mean sentient being, I agree with you. However, you should be more specific.

The wikipedia definition of spirit is the nonphysical part of a person
Sound familiar?

Since the Holy Spirit doesn't have a physical body, He cannot be a person. He created people.
Debate Round No. 3
daley

Pro

"Like I said, obviously Adam and Eve weren't born in the conventional way"

Your definition of person was "someone born like any other person." Any other person would be born in the conventional way, so if Adam and Eve are not born in the conventional way, then they are not born like any other person and therefore do not fit your definition of person.

Also, Adam and Eve were not BORN, they were created. God wasn't pregnant to give birth to them. Nor was there a woman before them who could. Since they were not born then they don't fit your definition of person!

"If your not going to refute my main points, why am I debating with you?"

You never refuted my point that God is called prosopon, person, in the Bible. You never even replied to that; so why am I debating with you? I have quoted your every point and replied to them all, and just because you don't agree with the answers doesn't mean I didn't address them!

"If by person you mean sentient being, I agree with you. However, you should be more specific."

I was specific. And I'll quote for you what I specifically said:

Wikipedia: "an entity that has certain capacities or attributes associated with personhood."

That seems pretty specific to me. This is a dictionary definition of person; since the Holy Spirit fits this quite valid definition of person, then the Holy Spirit is a person. My case proved!

"If by person you mean sentient being, I agree with you."

An animal is a sentient being and yet is not a person. The Holy Spirit possess more than mere sentience (consiousness); he has qualities, emotions, raitonality, a will, preferences, etc. These are traits of personhood.

"The wikipedia definition of spirit is the nonphysical part of a person. Sound familiar?"

Angels are spirits. (Heb 1:7, 13-14) Are angels the nonphysical PART of persons? Was the angel Gabriel the nonphysical part of a physical person? If not, then you need to see that there are other definitions of spirit; just as there are other definitions of "person." My definition of person stands until you can refute it.

You never replied to my argument that God, who is a Spirit, is called a person in the Bible. Go back through my post and make the necessary response.

"Since the Holy Spirit doesn't have a physical body, He cannot be a person. He created people."

Humans are born and so are horses; humans have physical bodies and so do horses; so horses meet both of your requirements for personhood (they are born, and have physical bodies), yet horses are not persons, why? I would love to hear you answer this!

If you say horses are not persons because they are not born in the same manner as humans, you'll be contradicting yourself, cause neither were Adam and Eve! You are the one who said that the method of birth doesn't matter!

EVIDENCE THAT IamZero is AFRAID OF

The Greek word for person "prosopon" which is used for persons at Matt 22:16; Mark 12:14; Luke 20:21; 2 Cor 1:11; 2 Cor 2:10; Gal 2:6 and Jude 16 is used of God (who is a Spirit [John 4:24]), at Exo 15:3 and Heb 9:24. This shows spirits can be persons too.

Notice how the NWT renders these verses:

"Jehovah is a manly PERSON (prosopon) of war." (Exo 15:3)
"Now to appear before the PERSON (prosopon) of God for us." (Heb 9:24)

This word, prosopon, means "person," example:

"For thou regardeth not the person (prosopon) of men." (Matt 22:16, KJV)
"By the means of many persons (prosopon) thanks may be given." (2 Cor 1:11, KJV)

So I have shown where God is called a person in the Bible. Con made no rebuttal to this, therefore this evidence still stands until he can knock it down.

DEAR IamZero;
The Bible itself says God is a person; God is also a Spirit (John 4:24), therefore a spirit can be a person! This refutes your claim that a spirit cannot be a person.

Refute that! I want to see you QUOTE this evidence and REPLY to it! You have ignored most of the evidence I presented, please don't ignore this one.

In your next post, if you think there is anything you said to which I made no reply, please QUOTE it so that the readers can see what you are referring to and will be able to read back the post and see if your claim is true that I made no reply. I really don't enjoy being accused to things I didn't do.

The Holy Spirit is a living, conscious, rational, intelligent being, and is therefore a person because that is what a person is.
IamZero

Con

IamZero forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
daley

Pro

IamZero has forfeited round 4. I do hope he returns to answer my points in round 5.

I should be clear to anyone reading this debate that his definition of person in simply inadequate to cover all beings that can be considered persons, and has a faulty criteria for personhood.

I have presented evidence for the personality of the Holy Spirit that has not been overturne. I have shown the Holy Spirit has personality (he loves, grieves, has preferences, is hurt by sin, is holy, interested in guiding and teaching us, and so on; personality is unique only to persons.

I have shown that since God is called a person (prosopon) in the Bible, and since God is a Spirit, that spirits are person; thus, the HolySpirit being a Spirit also shows his personhood.

While I gave Con a point by point response to all his arguments, he ignored most of mine.

I gave Con a definition for "person" from the dictionary to which he made no rebittal, so the definition stands. I also showed how the Holy Spirit fits this definition. In light of these facts my position that the Bible teaches the Holy Spirit is a person remains unimpeached.
IamZero

Con

You say the Bible says a spirit is a person. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to make a arguement the lenth of yours, however; I will do my best. And I apoligize for my critical behavior.
When the Bible talks about people approaching God's person, it means his essence. People did not exist before God created them, so God is not a person. This is one of my arguements that has not been refuted.

And I don't agree with the NWT transalation, so I cannot reply to those points.
Hebrews 9:24 gives the impression appearing before the essence of God.
Matt 22:16 and 2 Cor 1:11 make no mention of God.
Thanks again pro
Debate Round No. 5
25 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
Daley,

You just lost the conduct vote... it is VERY bad form to continue debating in the comments after the debate is over.
Posted by daley 5 years ago
daley
funny u know, Con said that people didn't exist before God created them, therefore God is not a person; that's like saying spirits didn't exist before God created them, therefore God is not a Spirit. What? Vote pro...
Posted by mcc1789 5 years ago
mcc1789
@daley Sorry, just saw it. Challenge accepted.

@ReformedArsenal My knowledge of Trinitarianism is lacking. These Councils of course declared beliefs a heresy...
The word aspects is meant to cover persons in my post. Any subtler distinctions were not meant.
Posted by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
@MCC

The Trinity is most certainly NOT defined as God having three aspects... this is called Modalism (Sometimes known as Sebelianism) and was declared a heresy at the early Councils.

The Trinity is defined as one God, having three Persons all with a common nature. If you are not agreeing that the Holy Spirit is a person... you are disagreeing with orthodox Christian doctrine.
Posted by daley 5 years ago
daley
hey, mcc1789, so what's up with our debate on the historicity of jesus? i posted it already. r u ready? or should i cancel it again for now?
Posted by mcc1789 5 years ago
mcc1789
I agree with the idea of person not equaling human. In fact I would go further to say that human does not always equal person. The issue of personhood would be good to debate itself. Trinitarianism is usually defined as God having three aspects: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The Son would surely be a person in this view. The Father as he is depicted would be a person too. Pro's arguments citing the Bible indicate the Holy Ghost is as well.
Posted by daley 5 years ago
daley
at least one person get's it
Posted by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
IamZero...

You are misunderstanding the term Person... You are defining it as "Human". Person != Human... Person = a Personal being. An intelligent, self aware being that has a personality and volition.

Tin-Man, you're making the same mistake. Daley is not arguing that the Holy Spirit is a Man (Either a Human, or Male in Gender... neither of these is what Daley is arguing), rather that the Holy Spirit is a personal force, as opposed to an impersonal force (like the Dao in Daoism).
Posted by IamZero 5 years ago
IamZero
Just to be clear, I believe in the Bible. I just simply do not believe it teaches what daley says.
Posted by daley 5 years ago
daley
you can stipulate any rules you want, it's fine with me. if u prefer to do it via our emails, mine is daleyveneita at live.com
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Dimmitri.C 5 years ago
Dimmitri.C
daleyIamZeroTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: I agree and believe IamZero didn't offer a debate; rather, a mere assertion or two.
Vote Placed by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
daleyIamZeroTied
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Total points awarded:51 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro won arguments and sources hands down. However, he looses the conduct vote for continuing to debate in the comments.