The Instigator
ChristianPunk
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
JamesHowlett27
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

The Bible Verses: Is Homosexuality a Sin?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/9/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,414 times Debate No: 42007
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (23)
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ChristianPunk

Pro

Hello, for this debate, I am looking specifically for a Christian who can make a good argument against me using bible verses and sciences. I will start my opening statement now.

For years, people in the LGBT community have been victim to discrimination, stereotyping, and even bullying and murder. What was the motive? Because being gay is a sin. Because they are unnatural. If it is unnatural for a man to love a man, why is their brain designed to do so? The brain has an area that controls the sexual orientation of an individual. With this statement, my main focus on the debate will be, if the bible claims being gay as a sin, then why would God make people gay by giving them the brain to be gay?
JamesHowlett27

Con

Hello, I'm excited to talk about this topic with you, as most do not have the maturity to do so. You seem polite and professional, I appreciate that. On the other hand I would like to apologize if my conduct is below par, as this is my first debate.
I am afraid I do not see the value of spewing biblical references or scientific evidence. Biblical references are open to interpretation and can be twisted and argued. Also, both existing sides of this argument have conducted vast amounts of research and procured significant evidence for their respective sides. Both sides have real scientific evidence, but none of it is 100% conclusive. I will also stay away from the over-done "it's not natural" type arguments, as they are tired. Therefore I will focus my arguments on simply attempting to answer your question as you asked, from the perspective of a Christian. More specifically, a sixteen year old male Christian who has no resentment towards the gay population, but also is not entirely supportive of their lifestyle.

1) Without too much rambling I would like to make the assertion that babies are not born gay. Babies are not born with sexual desires at all. Sexual preferences are developed later in life, sometimes as a young child, but not at birth. For example I thought a gay friend of mine was born that way, it didn't make sense to me but I accepted it. Later on I found that he had been badly abused by his father, who from such a young age pushed him to "be a man", which resulted in my friend turning the opposite way.

2) However say I am to accept your assertion that "God make[s] people gay by giving them the brain to be gay" I would offer a simple analogy as to why. God condemns lying. It is a sin to lie, just as performing homosexual acts are. Yet very young children are compelled by something inside them to lie. It is a natural response that they were born with. Why would God create a child who sins like that? Why would he curse such a beautiful child with the instinct to lie?
Homosexuality is not the only sexual sin, God also condemns all sex out of wedlock, even simply lusting with ones eyes is a sin. Why would God not program all humans to never lust, and simply find the right partner to stick to for life? Why make us struggle with lust and sexual desire?
Because God is all about free-will, and then testing that free will. Yes, God has made us with these desires inside us that he then condemns, which can seem cruel, but God is not doing it to punish his children, just test them. God gave us these urges and instincts so that we can struggle, and overcome, overcome using faith in Him.

3) Another issue of confusion is due to humanity, not God. First of all, God loves gays. They are his children, and any who slander homosexuals are foolish hypocrites. Homosexual acts are just other sins, people have isolated them and segregated them and hyped them up simply because they are a bit less common than the other sins. Yes, there is some truth to the "homos go to Hell" slur, but God says that all are damned if they do not repent their sins. That priest who slanders gays is just as unclean as those he persecutes. I sincerely apologize on behalf of the Christian community for those extremists who are so quick to send someone to Hell. It's not like being gay is some super-evil sin that surpasses others-on the contrary its not even one of the seven deadly sins (unless you count lust, which applies to everyone). In the end, we all sin, we all do things God tells us not to, and homosexuality is on the list, but it's not at the top of it; God says that all sin is equally evil.
Debate Round No. 1
ChristianPunk

Pro

I congratulate you on your opening statement. Now I shall start with my first few points.

1. This will have several different sources, but after several of studies, this is revealed in what can be found in individuals who have an attraction for the same sex.

Some studies have found correlations between physiology of people and their sexuality. These studies provide evidence which they claim suggests that:

Gay men and straight women have, on average, equally proportioned brain hemispheres. Lesbian women and straight men have, on average, slightly larger right brain hemispheres.

The VIP SCN nucleus of the hypothalamus is larger in men than in women, and larger in gay men than in heterosexual men.

The average size of the INAH-3 in the brains of gay men is approximately the same size as INAH 3 in women, which is significantly smaller, and the cells more densely packed, than in heterosexual men's brains.

I can go on with more, but I will just leave a source where you can look in the Psychological tab. Psychology is a good science to explain why we behave the way we do. It's a good way to study God's design on the human mind and our behaviors.

2. Your friend's experience can have many effects on him. He could turn gay from being abused and told those words, but he was a child and the father had no right to beat him with abuse. Your friend could also turn into an abuser himself and become his dad. Evolution has proven that given time and pressure, we adapt to situations. Kind of like Polar Bears that grew white hair in the past to adapt to their new cold environement when the earth was reformed in it's lands. Your friend could turn into a killer who murders his dad after holding in so much anger. It's why bullies usually die from their victims later on in life if they go too far with their methods. So what you say about your friend can have many different effects. The only way to be 100% sure and not just have a theory is to have tests run on him by a proffesional like a psychologist or a therapist.

3. Homosexuality is what I refer to as being gay. And what it really means is that people who are gay, just love the same sex. They have done studies in the past to show images of naked women to gay men. No form of romantic attraction was ever shown when even offered the models of the time. Gay is not a sex thing. Alot of people accuse it as a lifestlye and that's only the people who want it as a lifestyle. With the famous Thou shall not lie with mankind as with woman kind, it is an abomination verse, I simply quote that this is mistaken. No use of gay or homosexual is ever used here. Man won't lie with mankind. Doesn't say man shall not love mankind. Corinthians says the abusers of themselves of mankind and effeminate won't inherit the kingdom of God. Abusers of themselves with mankind in my read means drug abusers or those that beat themselves up or even those that abuse others since they are also mankind like them. You use drugs, your abuse your own body. Romans chapter 1 is pretty much talking about a form of idoltry. Paul compares people who knew God and going towards other false gods to men who loved women yet had sexual relations with men. And it reveals he gave them over to vile affections. Vile affections to other gods. And one way to worship and praise these false gods was to have orgies where it was straight for one, and then switch with same sex partners. The bible is pretty open and clear if you can carefully read and not go with what other pastors say or what other scholars say. God made that bible for you. Remember that false preachers are there to make a buck off your being in a church or elsewhere.

Source
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Source for entire debate
http://www.matthewvines.com...
JamesHowlett27

Con

1. Unless I misunderstood Pro's intentions, our main focus is not on if homosexuality manifests itself in the brain. Of course it does. I never debated that many gays were destined to be so from a young age, I simply hope to explain why God would allow that to happen.

2. a) Your predictions about my friend hold no relevance in this argument. The fact that abuse is a vicious cycle is well known, not revolutionary. Your predictions about his future are also incomplete, the way you presented them made it seem as though they were the only options, for obvious reasons they are not.
b) "Polar bears" is not a proper noun and should not be capitalized.
c) The fur of polar bears is transparent, not white.
d) Earth is a proper noun and should be capitalized.
e) "It's why bullies usually die from their victims later on in life if they go too far with their methods."
-This statement is lacking in the necessary research to support it. Such a brazen claim must be accompanied by credible evidence. This statement is most likely not a fact but an opinion.
-As well as an unsupported fallacy, this statement is extremely vague. How do you define bully? How far is too far? Who is measuring this and what are the criteria?

3. a) No, what homosexuality really means is 1: the quality or state of being homosexual. 2: erotic activity with another of the same sex, as defined by Webster's Dictionary. What you claim homosexuality "really means" is not at all what it really means, it is just how you interpret it, aka, your opinion.
b) "Gay is not a sex thing". Please explain to me how in a debate about homosexuality (emphasis on the "sex") you dare to make the claim that homosexuality is not about sex; not about what an individual desires sexually.
c) I believe you are referring to Leviticus 18:22, and tried to twist around words to change meaning. I do understand that some things are open to interpretation, however "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." Leviticus 18:22, is not one of those verses. It is very clear and an attempt to twist its meaning is doomed for failure.

"My main focus on the debate will be, if the bible claims being gay as a sin, then why would God make people gay by giving them the brain to be gay?"
I have answered this question in my first argument. Although Pro claims that this is his main focus, he has not made any arguments centered on it.
Debate Round No. 2
ChristianPunk

Pro

Speaking of your first point, You mention gay as a sexual thing. I will also drop the use of homosexuality, to see if that changes anything for this round. Now sexual sin is bad, but love isn't. God did not condemn love. And Many people who were somewhat considered to be gay, were very sexual deviants in the times of the bible. But they didn't identify as gay people. If anything, they were bisexuals. Sodom and Gomorah wasn't just gay rape, or sodomy. But it was males and females getting raped. The policy was to rape strangers of all kinds who didn't know their place in the town. And this was a very commonly used tactic of the time. Back to the point. Some gays may have sex, but then some others may not. Maybe because they are revulted by the idea of sex, wanna be safe from AIDS or other diseases, stay pure and abstinent, anything. We can't just consider gay as a lifestyle where certain rules apply. It's all about human beings.

As for the brain, Ravi Zacharias, a Christian Apologist, inspired me with this analogy. Two men are looking at a portrait and a sculpture. They are both of a woman. It's the same woman in each. One likes the painting because he finds beauty in the colors, the frame on the canvas, and the world that she is painted into. He doesn't like the sculpture because he thinks it's too bland and colorless. The other likes the sculpture because of the pose the artist got of her, how the artist made her look, and how the sculpture can be something you feel. He finds the painting to be too fictional and not realistic. So they have different opinions and preferences due to the brain since that is what determines them for that.

Also, Conversion Therapy is a procedure that doctors use to shock the brain to turn the gay individual into a straight person where it most of the time works. You can also make a cat become afraid of the mouse he is supposed to chase or make him angry at the mouse by switching an area in his brain to trigger his senses.

Most of what I say here comes from my mentors and my Psychology book in College at Delta Community.

You define homosexuality as a sexual thing mainly because that is your opinion like mine is that it isn't. We will have many interpretations.

Also, I don't know how I confused the verse up? I read the KJV because I find the modern translations to be false. This can apply to the painting example I gave. Instead of you, it says Thou. Man is mankind. and woman is womankind. And it is an abomination. But that Is the sexual behaviors. God never condemned gay loving committed relationships.
JamesHowlett27

Con

JamesHowlett27 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
ChristianPunk

Pro

ChristianPunk forfeited this round.
JamesHowlett27

Con

JamesHowlett27 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
ChristianPunk

Pro

ChristianPunk forfeited this round.
JamesHowlett27

Con

JamesHowlett27 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
23 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ChristianPunk 3 years ago
ChristianPunk
Unless the ideas of homosexuality was lustful. But unless the gay thoughts are that of a loving day in the park or night at a fancy resteraunt, then it isn't sinful. Your imagining the love of other people. That's what they imagine. Love of other people that they wish to meet. Being gay is something that can't be helped unless your willing to do what this guy explains which by Psychology studies has been proven. Especially by Ivan Polov.
Posted by Deitymaver 3 years ago
Deitymaver
Wait, are you really debating based on "Bible verses"? I can hardly see them. Also, please make your stands clear. I have no idea who is really Pro and Con.
Posted by Guidestone 3 years ago
Guidestone
You agreed that
X thoughts are immoral because it would lead to X.

If you fill in murder it is true, but if you fill in homosexuality it is not true? Why?
Posted by ChristianPunk 3 years ago
ChristianPunk
Correct. Because eventually, they will lead to it.
Posted by Guidestone 3 years ago
Guidestone
Then thoughts of murder are immoral even if you don't act on it?
Posted by ChristianPunk 3 years ago
ChristianPunk
In a way it is. But the Bible itself considers the thoughts immoral if you do em. Whatever sin you act is what defiles a person.
Posted by Guidestone 3 years ago
Guidestone
I meant are the thoughts of murder immoral, not is murder immoral.
Posted by ChristianPunk 3 years ago
ChristianPunk
They are immoral. Murder is clearly said not to be practiced. Yet Christians and everybody else murders at times. Same with Rape since it's a sexually immoral act.
Posted by Guidestone 3 years ago
Guidestone
I see, then are thoughts of murder, suicide, rape, etc. also not immoral?
Posted by ChristianPunk 3 years ago
ChristianPunk
Correct. I believe the sexual part is wrong because it is only pleasure and doesn't lead to reproduction like a man and woman does. That's the sole purpose of man and woman couples. To love AND to reproduce.
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