The Bible/Yahwey are the source of Morality
It is not I who needs luck :) I wish you the best of luck.
To answer the question of whether or not the Bible or Yahweh are moral, we must first define morality. Morality is defined as principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior. What then, makes something moral or immoral? My belief lies in the golden rule, " One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself."
Killing in the Bible
After we defined morality, now we can objectively re examine the Bible. We can easily come to the conclusion that murder is wrong,so let's look at how many are killed by god in the Bible. According to http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com..., the total number of people mentioned in the Bible to be killed by god is 2,821,364. This does not include the many killed that the Bible does not give numbers for, such as the flood of Noah. After estimates that number rises to an appalling 24,994,828 people killed... by God. To give you perspective, about 11,000,000 people were killed in the Holocaust.
God's Plan for everyone Moral?
God created all people, with his own plan for their lives. Sounds nice, right? On further thought, how can this be moral? He creates people destined to burn in hell... forever. Meaning, they have no choice in the matter. In the Garden of Eden, god created Adame and Eve, perfectly. Everything was perfect, animals coexisting without violence (which also makes no sense as they have carnivourous teeth), and then god decided that placing a tree in the middle of the garden. Not just any tree, but one that would give people knowlesge of good and evil. This would kill anyone who ate the fruit becuase, it makes them mortal. Not only did god place such a tree ion the garden with instructions not to eat it, but he placed a very persuasive snake, and made the fruit very tempting. How can that be moral? Not only that, but he knew that they would fall for it.
Thats all for now, interested to hear your response.
I agree with my opponent's definition of morality being:
" Morality is defined as principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior."
I could even take it a step further saying that morality is not only the principle and behavior of right and wrong, but our core way of thinking and what we decipher as right and wrong; a way of thinking molded and shaped by the Bible. Therefore making it the source of our morality.
"My belief lies in the golden rule, 'One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.'"
I believe that this is essentially the THE CORE of morality. This saying derived from Mark 12:31 "The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”(1)
Killing in the Bible
My opponent addresses the flood of Noah in Genesis. This flood was used to cleanse the Earth from the rampant sin and self destruction of the people. God had even sent preachers to plead with he people to part with their corrupt ways, but they wouldn't repent.(2) The key significance of water is that it has a cleansing power to it and represents purity. Because of the people and their unrelenting lapses of morality God saw fit to essentially start over and use it as a lesson learned for the people to come. So yes, those killings were done by God, but they were done by God for the overall benefit of the human race in mind.
Not at all Predestination
Although, as humans, it is impossible to completely understand God's reasoning and motives, what we can derive is that God has a plan for our lives and clearly lays down instructs on how to live our lives and how to deal with the trials and tribulations we are SURELY to face in life to get us to heaven. (hint, hint; it's all laid out in the Bible). My opponent addresses the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve had full access to everything on Earth but were solely instructed to leave the apple tree alone and they were perfectly content in doing so until the serpent tempted them. God never place the serpent in the garden, but that was Satan himself sewing the seeds of mistrust without God having placed him there. Remember, Satan is a fallen angel acting independently from God. It is moral in that God had faith in his people and had given them all they could have ever wanted.
I can't wait to hear your response, and any new points you may bring up.
Interesting, you find the golden rule to be "I believe that this is essentially the THE CORE of morality." Yet, the golden rule was around before Jesus and the Bible, taught by Confucianism. (1).
Killing in the Bible
To be clear, you're saying that it's okay to kill people if you are God? Think of God as a human being for a minute, like Hitler. He thought he was doing humanity a favor as well. (2). Nobody would ever think that Hitler was a good person, nor should people think Yahweh is a good.. being. In the flood though, not only humans were killed, all of the animals on earth died. Babies. Infants. The Bible says that these killings are just because everyone on earth was evil. Let me ask you, how can animals, babies, and infants, be evil? The flood was one mere instance in which Yahweh mercilessly killed humans. Let's talk about Sodom and Gomorrah, a great instance of Yahweh's benevolence :). Yahweh decides that all of Sodom and Gomorrah are evil (again including innocent babies), so he decides he wants to kill everyone. Though there is one man. Lot. The most righteous man in the cities, in God's eyes. God finds him so righteous, that he sends two angles to inform him of the impending cataclysm. The men of the city discover that there are newcomers in the town in Lot's house, so they ask to have sex with them. Lot, a righteous man, offers his virgin daughters to the crazed crowd to be raped. Of course, this is stopped by the angels, Lot leaves the town, and then his wife is turned to a pillar of salt for the heinous crime, of looking over her shoulder.
What you're current;y saying, is that God has a step-by-step plan for our lives, but is not predetermined? I'm not sure I can follow that logic. As for the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were restricted to the garden, not the entire world. He placed the tree in the center of the garden. As for Satan, he made Satan too, also with a plan.
I think I'll add a few more topics as well:
Slavery in the Bible
According to the Bible, slavery is okay. (EXODUS 21:20-21) According to God’s law, it was wrong to beat a slave to the point of death. But if the slave survived and got back up within a few days, the beating wasn’t punishable, because the slave was the property of the master. (God endorsed slavery and the beating of slaves.)
Women in the Bible are thought of as less than men. (NUMBERS 31:17-18) God commanded Moses to kill all of the male Midianite children and "kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." The virgins were presumably raped. The bible says that they were virgins, not that they were great cooks, what do you think they wanted virgins for? (NUMBERS 31:31-40) God divided the plunder to the soldiers, the priest, the Israelites and for tribute to the Lord. 675,000 sheep, 72,000 cattle, 61,000 donkeys and 32,000 virgin women. Women are a plunders of war, not human beings.
(2)http://en.wikipedia.org... (Subsection Role of religion in the Nazi state)
Fictional-Reality forfeited this round.
Not really sure what to say here, but I'll try.
If somehow, God was entirely disproved. Just assume for a second, that it was entirely proved and you were convinced that there was no God. Would you become a murderer? Since there is no God in this scenario, would you kill, steal, rape, etc? If no, then this experiment proves that your morality is innate. If yes, then you have some serious issues and need to consult a psychologist immediately (but I am fairly certain that the answer is no).
How can morality come from the Bible, if animals have morals? (1)
Can people how do not believe in God have morals, since you think that people get morals from God? I think I'm a moral person, more so since I became an atheist. I am now aware of other organisms, not just humans. As a Christian, I thought that humans were supreme, now I believe that we are just another animal on that huge scale that is the universe.
I would like to begin by apologizing for forfeiting my last round. I wasn't able to find the time to get to my computer to reply, but now that I'm here, I shall pick up where I left off:
I agree that the golden rule has been around since before Jesus and even the Bible. The religion of Christianity(following of Jesus and his teachings) and it's formal teaching(the Bible itself) came after God created Earth and all the people who came before said people, so I am not shocked that the teaching of the golden rule would have come before the the establishment of Christianity itself.
Killing in the Bible
Well, and I hate to beg the question here, if you're God, you're GOD and to try and place him; even hypothetically, as a human being is nearly impossible! What makes God, God is the very reason that he is not of the flesh. He does not have the emotions, the way of thinking or any of that that is attached to being a human. And yes, Hitler thought he was doing a good thing, but he was doing a "good" thing with only his nation of Germany in mind. With that, it allowed him to do what he saw was best for the advancement, protection, and the preservation of his own people not matter the cost to other people. That is why we see Hitler as a bad person and why we shouldn't see God as one, because he does what he does with the benefit of ALL humankind in mind.
As for the children in the flood, they were brought up with rampant sin in their minds and showing in their behavior. It's unfortunate that children died, but sin is sin, and their has to be consequences that accompany.
Sodom & Gomorrah
As much as I recognize and LOVE your use of sarcasm, I would have to agree with you. ':) God's benevolent behavior is shown at the beginning of the story where God truly wanted to SPARE the city which is why he bargained with Abraham. Under the parameters in which there were at least ten righteous men living in the city, God would spare it. As we know the end of the story, such never happened. "Lot was so infected by the wickedness of Sodom that he gave the homosexuals his two virgin daughters instead. "(1) [instead of the newcomers] So it's not like he just freely offered up his daughters to the crowd. And yes, Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt but not exactly for the mere "heinous crime, of looking over her shoulder" but for disobeying the orders of the angels...by looking over her shoulder. God didn't want the evil in these to cities to spread to the rest of the Jews, and to give a loose analogy, it's like cancer. This one specific area could potentially spread and bring trouble elsewhere, so God had to be aggressive in getting rid of it.
More Like Planning
It's not so much predestination as it is God having a plan for our live, but we DO have a choice in what we do in our lives. God has a plan for what he wants us to do and he lays things out so we have that opportunity to do so, but in the end we all have that choice whether we realize it or not.
God never made Satan with the intention of being "Satan" therefore he never gave him a plan. To clarify, originally an angel named Lucifer, he was the most clever, witty and essentially God's "right-hand man" when it came to angels in heaven. As Isaiah 14:12-14 says "
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer,[a] son of the morning!...
For you have said in your heart:...
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;...
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’'(2)
Because of his pride, Lucifer was sent down to hell and became the Angel of Darkness,Satan, with his own agenda to keep people from getting into heaven.
Slavery in the Bible
With the progression of mankind comes the progression of the Bible and its teachings.
Galatians 5:1 "For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery."(3)
I think that about sums that subject up :)
Yes, women were originally seen as the inferior race, but later in the Bible, with this idea of progression, it states in Galatians 3:26-29
"For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."(4)
In the times before Jesus, it is understandable to see how they were perceived as lesser beings and therefore plunders of war, but as the Bible progressed, so did it's teachings on the status of women, and that's all that matters. And as for the virgin thing, God could've kept the virgin's in the idea of keeping who was left "pure".
You are right, most people's answers would be 'No' and mine is no different, but it comes down to this. Disproving God doesn't erase all the teaching set forth on humanity because to disprove something, something must be there to disprove. So the moral teachings would still be of existence, but people's divine reason behind it would no longer be there. It's like the current day Atheist; to them they find reason to disprove God altogether, but they are not soulless thieving murder-rapist! They still have morals. Morals in which were instilled in them by their parents who could be religious, or by their parent's parents or anyone for that matter who based their morality in the Bible.
People get morals from God and the Bible, but it doesn't have to be a direct feed from the Bible straight to someone. This could be from a teacher who has religious background teaching kids some ideas of morality that he/she derived from the Bible.
I do not doubt your morality, but this isn't necessarily morality. Morality being principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.
And in the Bible humans are seen as superior than animals, but it is also taught that we should treat animals with decency for they are also creatures of God.
And again, lo siento, for the forfeited round!
That's fine, it could only have helped me :).
I'm not sure I understand this statement "The religion of Christianity(following of Jesus and his teachings) and it's formal teaching(the Bible itself) came after God created Earth and all the people who came before said people, so I am not shocked that the teaching of the golden rule would have come before the the establishment of Christianity itself." How could you not be shocked? Before people were taught about God and his rules, they were following his rules? How can that possibly make sense?
Killing in the Bible
It's nearly impossible, but apparently still possible, so try it for a minute. If someone told you Hitler or Stalin did these things, you would be appalled, yet if God does it, it's fine? "It's unfortunate that children died, but sin is sin, and their has to be consequences that accompany." You can tell that children dying is bad, so you don't get your morals from God, since He thinks that killing children is okay.
Sodom and Gomorrah
I'm glad you liked it, and especially that you agreed with me, but you could not be more wrong about God's benevolence. Before he "bargained" with Abraham, he knew how many righteous men that there were in the city (notice how he only factors men, not women), so any bargaining would make no sense, sense he knows the lowest that he can go, and how far Abraham would try to make him go. "Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt but not exactly for the mere "heinous crime, of looking over her shoulder" but for disobeying the orders of the angels...by looking over her shoulder". Not sure where I went wrong here, she wasn't supposed to look over her shoulder, and she did, therefore she deserved to die, right? That's what God says, but any sensible being would know that that is ridiculous. "God didn't want the evil in these to cities to spread to the rest of the Jews, and to give a loose analogy, it's like cancer." What happened to free will?
Do you or do you not believe that God knows what you will choose? If you do, then you have no choice. If you don't, then you question his omniscience, case closed.
How do you know this? Isaiah 14:12-14 does not say once that God didn't have a plan for Satan. As with the "planning", if God didn't know what Satan would do, then he is not omniscient.
This truly made me laugh aloud. To begin with, this part of Galatians is talking specifically about the Jews, not everyone. Also, Hebrews 13:8 says that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." So if God never changes, and the Bible is his words, then his teachings never change. Or else that would mean he changed his mind, and is therefore not perfect.
" In the times before Jesus, it is understandable to see how they were perceived as lesser beings and therefore plunders of war." Why is this understandable? " but as the Bible progressed, so did it's teachings on the status of women" See ↑. "God could've kept the virgin's in the idea of keeping who was left "pure"." Then why not ask for those who have not sinned? Why ask for virgins? If I want to know if a woman is nice, I don't ask if she is a virgin, I ask if she has committed crimes. (well, I wouldn't ask that, but you get the idea).
Would you site where the Bible says to treat animals respectfully? Also, you never answered why animals have morals that can never learn about God or read the Bible.
"Disproving God doesn't erase all the teaching set forth on humanity because to disprove something, something must be there to disprove." Really? Unicorns are real. They can fly, and they have no wings (or any other flying mechanism). They must exist even though that is absurd. If you disprove this, they still must exist because you tried to disprove them. "People get morals from God and the Bible, but it doesn't have to be a direct feed from the Bible straight to someone. This could be from a teacher who has religious background teaching kids some ideas of morality that he/she derived from the Bible." What about people who have never heard of God? Places where the Bible has never reached, nobody was taught about God? Such as the times of Confucius.
Man my fingers are tired after that. I really had fun debating with you, looking forward to the outcome of this.
You can only hope :)
I’m not shocked because his rules were still there, they just we’re officially proclaimed by prophets until later; at which the official basis for Christianity was being laid.
Killing in the bible
Okay, and if Hitler or Stalin did it, we’d be appalled no doubt, but it all comes back to the fact they did was done for personal reasons; either the personal advancement of themselves, their country, a group of people they like, it doesn’t matter, but it’s all for selfish reasons, something God doesn’t do. God doesn’t think killing is okay, that’s why there’s a commandment against it and it is in that commandment that we find God’s moral position is on killing. Killing on Earth would’ve happened for one selfish reason or another. And I’ve already clarified my stance on that.
Sodom and Gomorrah
I think you misunderstood me there, God bargained with Abraham to have ten righteous men living in the city. What Abraham had to do was either find ten righteous men to live in the city, or to get ten men currently in the city to change their ways and become righteous. So when that didn’t happen, God made good on his end. You're still looking at it as if she died for looking over her shoulder. It was the blatant disobedience that took place, especially after the city got destroyed for such a thing; blatant disobedience of God's rules. The free will is there, it's just when it's taken to such extremes, as it was in those cities, God sends a warning, which he did. They had the free will to choose to if they'd heed the warning God had sent, or continue in their ways, and with their free will, they chose not to listen, and God doesn't give empty warnings.