The Instigator
JGomez
Pro (for)
Winning
1 Points
The Contender
TheTrueBodyofChrist
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The Bible does not give one person authority to govern a local church.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
JGomez
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/24/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 662 times Debate No: 72249
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (16)
Votes (1)

 

JGomez

Pro

Throughout history, the Church has experimented with different structures of leadership. But, what has been largely ignored by modern churches is the fact that single elder rule, where one man is said to have been "called by God" to preside over an assembly is not a scriptural model in the least. Christian advocated for a distribution of authority, kingship, and priesthood among all believers with the Holy Spirit serving as the sole head of the Church. Anything other than this model is akin to the people of Israel wanting a human king instead of allow God to be their king.
TheTrueBodyofChrist

Con

Now the first thing you must understand before you are able to understand anything else is that everything you know and have learned about Christ is WRONG! Now let me explain, in the beginning God's perfect order for us all was that God would speak to your spirit which is what allows us to inwardly hear and talk with God, then our spirit would pass that information to our soul with is our freewill , our emotions, logic, good habits, bad habits and everything that makes us the person we are. Then our soul would take that command from God and act it out through our body which is simply our outer shell or what allows us to walk around on the earth.

(To see that man is made of a Spirit, Soul and body see 1 Thessalonians 5:23King James Version (KJV)

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.)

Now this was God's perfect order because all we would ever do in life is exactly what He told us. Now God's perfect order was destroyed when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Now when they did that their spirit and the spirit of every person born after them died leaving us all disconnected from God from birth and left to figure out life using our Soul meaning our own logic, emotions and way of thinking, our surroundings and Satan and because of that we would always get things wrong. Now the only way to fix this problem and reconnect our spirit to God is through Christ by accepting the true steps to salvation and walking and growing in Christ the right way. Now the problem is that Satan is real and he is always trying to fool us into believing we are doing things right even when we are not because by doing so he is able to get us to fight for the right we believe we are doing.

That is why the bible says in Matthew 6:23King James Version (KJV)

23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

So if you are born disconnected from God and left to figure out life with your corrupt mind, your surroundings and Satan what is going to happen when you pick up the bible and try to understand it? You will come up with your own corrupted version of the bible without ever knowing it.

Again if you are born disconnected from God and left to figure out life with your corrupt mind, your surroundings and Satan what is going to happen when you try to understand how the Holy Spirit works? You will come up with your own corrupted version of the Holy Spirit without ever knowing it.

Again if you are born disconnected from God and left to figure out life with your corrupt mind, your surroundings and Satan what is going to happen when you go to a church that is filled with other people that are using their own corrupt minds to understand the things of God? You will accept their corrupted version of the Bible and Christianity without ever knowing it.

And that is what has happened in today's world and that is why the world and the church are becoming more and more corrupt each and everyday but we are The True Body of Christ and we are a nationwide and worldwide church and we are here to give every person the opportunity to become a member and start over and actually learn the right way to follow Christ. Now you must be willing to let go of everything to learn the truth because for your entire life your own corrupt mind, your surroundings and Satan have been leading your life and you must make a commitment to let it all go and learn the right way to follow Christ.

That is why the bible says in Matthew 9:17King James Version (KJV)

17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

You cannot pour new wine into old skins because if you are not willing to let go of your past you will never be able to learn.

Now in regards to how the leadership of the church is to work. The first thing you must understand is that the church is NOT a democracy. It is a dictatorship and that dictator is God. If you like that or not that is your own problem but that is the reality. We are here to follow the commands of God and God alone. Now the reason there is an important need for leaders to have authority and to govern the church is because Satan is always trying to pull people back into sin and sometimes Satan is successful at doing so and the leaders must be there to restore order and make it clear what is of God and what is not of God. We see this as being true by the actions of Paul all throughout the New Testament where he corrected Peter or when he corrected churches for not doing the will of God. Now where the grey area comes in is when you say one man should not lead but a group. Now this is true and not true at the same time. Meaning if the is only one person that is truly follow Christ the right way and their is only one person that is able to clearly hear the will of God then you follow the directions of that one person but if you have a group of leaders that are truly following Christ the right way and they are able to clearly hear from God then you should follow the direction of all of them but if they are all being led by God they will all be saying the same thing anyways but that do not change the fact that they are the leaders and that they do have authority and the power to govern righteously over the church.

If you are interested in becoming a member of The True Body of Christ and starting over and learning the right way to follow Christ call 1-818-273-1044.
Debate Round No. 1
JGomez

Pro

I want to thank my opponent for his thoughtful response. Hopefully, he will keep his comments to the topic in the next rounds so that we can focus on the concepts at hand. The entire first part of his explanation seems to point to an elitist view of faith, as if he is the only one who has been awakened to truth by the Holy Spirit. A very dangerous view indeed, responsible for the formation of many a cult.

But, I digress...

The only content that actually addressed this debate is the final paragraph of his soliloquy where begins by telling us what we "must understand". He did not provide any actual references nor did he substantiate any part of his argument, but I will address each remark as thoroughly as possible.

OPPONENT: "The first thing you must understand is that the church is NOT a democracy. It is a dictatorship and that dictator is God. "

Actually, the proper term is a Theocracy, not a dictatorship.

Theocracy is a form of government in which clergy have official recognition as the civil ruler[citation needed] and official policy is either governed by officials regarded as divinely guided, or is pursuant to the doctrine of a particular religion or religious group. Dictatorship is a form of government where political authority is monopolized by a single person or political entity, and exercised through various mechanisms to ensure the entity's power remains strong. (Wikipedia)

Even then, Jesus disagrees:

Luke 22:25-26: "And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve."

Matthew 23:-11: "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant."

OPPONENT: "If you like that or not that is your own problem but that is the reality. We are here to follow the commands of God and God alone. "

It has nothing to do with what we like. Most people are perfectly fine sitting under a spiritual "master" and being told what to do. That is not what the scripture teaches, so you are just wrong.

OPPONENT: "Now the reason there is an important need for leaders to have authority and to govern the church is because Satan is always trying to pull people back into sin and sometimes Satan is successful at doing so and the leaders must be there to restore order and make it clear what is of God and what is not of God. "

This is an illusion created by my opponent. He is using Satan as a justification to "save people from themselves." Apparently, some people (curiously those who claim to have authority) are immune from being "used" by Satan. They are best entrusted with the authority, powering, influence, and money of the collective Body of believers. Apparently, those guys are just stupid sheep.

Yet, the Bible contains none of that insulting opinion. This is in stark contrast to the following:

1)The Word "leadership" is avoided in the NT. Instead, the word "diakonia" (sevrant, service) to label people in leadership far more time than any other term (for example, Rom 11:13;16:1;1 Cor 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6;6:4; 11:23; Eph3:7;6:21; Col 1:7,23; 4:7,12; 1Th 3:2; 1 Tim1:12; 2 Tim 4:5,11).

2)We see leadership taking on the form of CHARACTER and EXAMPLE as opposed to COERCION and AUTHORITY. There is a call for mutual submission and community life. Elders and overseers are actually CHOSEN from among men of preexisting good standing within the community of faith.

Leadership in the Church is not about manipulating and controlling people to be good. It"s about service and support to the Body of Believers, the new kings and priests.

OPPONENT: "We see this as being true by the actions of Paul all throughout the New Testament where he corrected Peter or when he corrected churches for not doing the will of God. "

This is a common misconception. There is no indication that Paul had authority over any of the churches he planted. In fact, he did not return to most of them. To others, he only return once or twice. Once eldership was established, there was no need for Paul. This was the way all of the Apostles felt, echoed by John"s own words:

1 John 2:27 "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

Apparently, John did not feel his leadership was perpetually necessary, unlike the militaristic philosophy of my opponent.

OPPONENT: "Now where the grey area comes in is when you say one man should not lead but a group. Now this is true and not true at the same time. "

It is either truth or not. My opponent has failed to provide one example in scripture where a local assembly was led by a single pastor, or that a pastor has been given such authority.

OPPONENT: "Meaning if the is only one person that is truly follow Christ the right way and their is only one person that is able to clearly hear the will of God then you follow the directions of that one person but if you have a group of leaders that are truly following Christ the right way and they are able to clearly hear from God then you should follow the direction of all of them but if they are all being led by God they will all be saying the same thing anyways but that do not change the fact that they are the leaders and that they do have authority and the power to govern righteously over the church."

This is the worst of my opponent"s statements. He is implying that he is the sole judge of who is "truly" listening to God. The reality is that there is no need for that. The only jobs listed for leaders within a community of faith are to (1) be an example, (2) teach and defend the doctrine of the Apostles, (3) and preserve the unity, helping believers resolve disputes among each other instead of the courts. Beyond that, the Bible has no teachings around "visionary" leadership that tells people what God is telling them to do. Jesus lived, died, and rose again to give us all direct access to the Father. No man is the door, gateway, or gate keeper.

My opponent has failed in the first round to provide any basis for his argument other than a fragmented collection of opinions that have no solid Biblical basis. I look forward to a stronger second round.
TheTrueBodyofChrist

Con

1. As the Bishop & Pastor of The True Body of Christ I am clearly pointing to an elitist view that at this point our church The True Body of Christ is the only true church and the only place where you are able to truly learn the right way to follow Christ. You have not been awakened to truth by the Holy Spirit because you have not been taught the right way to follow Christ so that you can truly gain access to the Holy Spirit. I started the conversation explaining that EVERYTHING you know and have learned about Christ is WRONG. So at this point you are only using your own corrupt mind to try and understand the things of God and until you start over and allow yourself to be taught the truth you will remain lost. You cannot gain access to the Holy Spirit until you have been taught the right way to follow Christ and The True Body of Christ is the only place where you are able to do that at this point. As far as you calling it a cult newsflash every major religion even Christianity by definition is a cult....lol.

2. You say I did not provide anything of substance because you are not ready to listen and learn yet you are to focused on fighting. That is what the Bible means when it says they have eyes but cannot see and ears but cannot hear.

3. Wikipedia is not a creditable reference because it is just someones opinion. Also I was not asking you if it was a dictatorship I was telling you that it is a dictatorship. Now the scriptures that you provided do not say that the leaders of the church are not to have authority or that they are not able to govern over the people. What the scriptures are saying is that as leaders it is our job to lead with the will of God and the well being of the people being the first priority not our own personal gain. As leaders of the church we are to be the voice of God so that the will of God and the will of God alone is done and we are not to lead to build up our ego, pride, riches or any other reason.

4. Again you show you dislike for bad leadership and that is the root of your problem you are rolling Godly leadership and corrupt leadership into one ball and that is not what you should do. There is no illusion of Satan, Satan came and tempted Jesus so the threat of Satan is real. Now when Jesus corrected Peter and told him to get thee behind me Satan that shows the need for leadership and the power to govern. When Paul corrected Peter when he was being a hypocrite that again shows the need for leadership and the power to govern. When Paul wrote the letter to the Corinthians that again shows the need for leadership and the power to govern. Paul did not write a joint letter, he wrote a letter directly from himself telling them what they could and couldn't do again that is a clear example of leadership, authority and the power the govern. Nothing in the bible supports your idea that the leaders of the church do not have authority or the power to govern over the people. The only thing the Bible says is that they must do it the right way and not the wrong way.

5. Also your 'those guys are just stupid sheep' comment sounded funny to you but it is sad because the Bible says that people are like lost sheep, which is clearly the point you are missing. That is why a Pastor is a shepherd meaning the person that leads the lost sheep to where they need to go because on their own the sheep would never make it. You really have NO CLUE.

6. You clearly need to take some time and actually read your bible. All of the letters to the churches were letters with direct instructions by one person. His letter to Timothy again direct instructions.

1 John 2:27 "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

Apparently, John did not feel his leadership was perpetually necessary, unlike the militaristic philosophy of my opponent.

7. This passage is NOT talking to you. In this passage John is talking to people he already knew were walking with Christ the right way. When a person has completed the process of fully understanding how to walk with Christ the right way and how to truly hear from God, that person is no longer in need of a leader they become a leader but that is not the position that you are in and that is not the position that most of the world is in.

It is either truth or not. My opponent has failed to provide one example in scripture where a local assembly was led by a single pastor, or that a pastor has been given such authority.

8. In the book of Corinthians Paul is the only person teaching, the same is true in countless other books of the New Testament.

9. So there is no need for knowing if someone is really listening to God or not? Do you understand what you are saying in a Bible where it clearly explains that there will be false teachers, in a bible where the Pharisee's who were the children of Abraham and known as the people of God at that time where the people that actually killed Jesus and was incorrectly teaching the word of God to countless people. After all of that you are telling me that it does not matter if the leader is actually listening to God or not. You are truly lost and you need to start over and really learn the right way to follow Christ.

You need to forget about the debate and take this opportunity to become a part of The True Body of Christ and actually learn the right way to follow Christ because right now you are completely lost. Also this is your opportunity to truly learn the right way to follow Christ and the Bible is clear that if you are given and opportunity to truly learn the right way to follow Christ and you reject it, then it will be better for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah then it will be for you.
Debate Round No. 2
JGomez

Pro

Once again, I would like to thank my opponent in this debate for his response. I commend him for being responsive to the debate and eager to share his views with those who would review this debate.

ESOTERIC NONSENSE

Opponent, throughout this debate you have engaged in what I call esoteric nonsense. You claim that no one but you can see the truth because it has not been revealed to our "corrupt" minds. You are using a brainwashing tactic called "dismissal". It is a tactic that seeks to convince the target of the brainwashing that he is unable to discern truth from fictions, reality from falsehood. You claim that I cannot "gain access to the Holy Spirit", therefore I cannot understand things in the proper context.

In reality, that could not be further from the truth, and the burden is on you to prove otherwise.

THE USE OF WIKIPEDIA

Wikipedia is an open source, edited encyclopedia of knowledge. I am not married to it. I compared many definitions and used it only to define two concepts: theocracy and dictatorship. You may use any reference you like to refuse the definition I put on the table. What you cannot do is dismiss them simply because of the source, especially one that proves the same level of accuracy as the Encyclopedia Britannica. (BBC News, Dec 2005)

In reference to, "Also I was not asking you if it was a dictatorship I was telling you that it is a dictatorship." That is not a justification for such an errant view. I am TELLING you that you are wrong. So, I guess we end that point there, with you being incorrect.

LEADING PEOPLE WITH THE WILL OF GOD

What you are describing is the Old Testament pattern of the priests, kings, judges, Pharisees, and Sadducees, not the Church Jesus Christ instituted. Nowhere in scripture can you justify this type of leadership. I challenge you to do so, which is the basis of this debate.

MY "DISLIKE FOR BAD LEADERSHIP"

While it is true that I do not like abusive, ineffective, arrogant leadership, I am not against leadership at all. I am against unscriptural authority over the Body of Christ. Plain and simple. What you are proposing is exactly that " a few chosen who dictate God"s orders to the people, who blindly follow because the leaders are the ones who hear God. That"s not Christanity. That"s a cult.

OPPONENT: "Now when Jesus corrected Peter and told him to get thee behind me Satan that shows the need for leadership and the power to govern."

This statement literally has nothing to do with what you are saying. Jesus was clearly telling Peter that he was not going to serve as a hindrance to the work of the cross. Nothing to do with Church leadership whatsoever.

OPPONENT: "When Paul corrected Peter when he was being a hypocrite that again shows the need for leadership and the power to govern."

If this was so, then why was Paul going against his "leader". Peter was one of the Apostles, not a layman. The answer is that Peter HAD NO AUTHORITY over Paul. You just gave a perfect example of the OPPOSITE of what you are trying to prove.

OPPONENT: "When Paul wrote the letter to the Corinthians that again shows the need for leadership and the power to govern. Paul did not write a joint letter, he wrote a letter directly from himself telling them what they could and couldn't do again that is a clear example of leadership, authority and the power the govern."

Nothing of the sort. It shows influence, love, and mentorship. He wasn"t telling them what they "could and couldn't do." He was giving them advice and admonishment, as a big brother in the faith.

OPPONENT: "Nothing in the bible supports your idea that the leaders of the church do not have authority or the power to govern over the people."

Nothing has to because nothing GIVES them that authority in the first place. You are working backwards with a presupposition that does not exist. This is the hallmark of your approach " a very tangible twisting.

STUPID SHEEP

My opponent prides himself as being above the "stupid sheep" he claims are real. He says that "people" (of course, not HIM) are like lost sheep, even those who have found Christ. Even those who have come into communion with the Holy Spirit. This is why they need HIM. He"s not lost. He"s not confused at all. He speaks on behalf of God. He leads people where to go on behalf of God because they are too stupid to hear.

Opponent, it is YOU who do not have a clue as to how awful of a person that makes you. You arrogantly believe that you are needed to lead people because you hear God more than everyone else. Meanwhile, the Bible says NONE of that. It does not even give pastors that role! It doesn"t assign them authority, nor purpose, nor position. It doesn"t order the church to be subject to them, led by them, or to even listen to them. It clearly states that the Holy Spirit is to lead in Christ"s stead. Period.

LETTERS OF INSTRUCTION

Not only have I read every word of the Bible, I have studied them and have actually written about every book and letter contained within them. I have expounded them and studied their origin, meaning, and history. Yes, these letters were written by one person to, sometimes another person and sometimes an entire assembly. However, what you are missing is that early Christianity had MANY such letter circulating around. So many, in fact, that early church fathers had different reading lists for believers. This is what led to canonization of scripture. So, although Paul was writing to a church, his letters were not the only ones they heeded. There was a PLURALITY of influence and teaching, distributed among the believers. Learn your Church and Bible history. You are going down the wrong path.

1 JOHN 2:27

My opponent wants to use insults and foolish talk to dissuade the conversation. 1 John 2:27 proves that pastors and spiritual teachers are not necessary leadership. Let every teacher teach. But, there is no authority over the life of the student that comes with that. Pastors are not appointed over people for life. John clearly states that there is a time in a believer"s life when outside teaching is done, and it"s just time to live and do as the teachings instruct.

As far as my position, I am CERTAINLY in a leadership position. More than one, in fact. The problem with my opponent is that he honestly believes he understands spiritual things, and that everyone else doesn"t. The fact of the matter is that his view is delusional at best, and his theology twisted beyond recognition.

OPPONENT: "In the book of Corinthians Paul is the only person teaching, the same is true in countless other books of the New Testament."

Once again, just because someone writes a letter with instruction does not provide them with any sort of authority over the recipient. Paul has no more authority over the Ephesians as he did any other assembly. But, his letters were read for 2,000 years for their inspiration and teachings, AS WERE THE LETTERS OF THE OTHERS.

THE NEED TO LISTEN TO GOD

My opponent is twisting what I stated. But, it"s fair enough " I did not disclaimer my statement. I thought he would be educated enough to understand it. So, let me explain it.

His view that a leader must be "hearing from God" is based on his false belief that a Christian leader must lead people in what the will of God is calling for. In fact, that is NOT the role of Christian leadership at all. It is to, as I stated:

(1) be an example, (2) teach and defend the doctrine of the Apostles, (3) and preserve the unity, helping believers resolve disputes among each other instead of the courts.

For that, we are given clear guidelines and qualifications for such leaders, none of which is that they must people able to hear the will of God on behalf of the local assembly. That was my point.

CLOSING REMARKS

You are quickly running out of rounds. Demonstrate clearly where the scripture appoints one man over a local assembly or you will lose this debate. You are making this too easy.
TheTrueBodyofChrist

Con

1. The bible is clear that unless you are walking with Christ the right way you cannot understand the things of God and you are not walking with Christ the right way.

2. Anything that God tells us to do we must do. We are here on this earth to do the will of God and the will of God alone that is a dictatorship.

3. I told you that all of the letters to the churches which are in the NEW TESTAMENT are direct orders or instructions from individual people.

1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus
Philemon

I could keep going but honestly this is ridiculous.

4. You do not define the leadership of the church God does. You are trying to redefine it because of the personal issue you have with leadership. Again you need to get over it. The disciples of Jesus blindly followed Him because He could hear from God. All of the people that followed Paul blindly followed him because he could hear from God. That is the only type of person you should be following.

5. Again Christianity is a cult. Every major religion is a cult.

Cult - a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object. As Christian we our devotion is directed towards Jesus Christ, Muslims direct it to Muhammad, Buddhist direct it towards Buddha, Mormons direct it towards Joseph Smith and etc.

6. Again since you are not connected with the Holy Spirit you miss simple lessons. The example between Jesus and Peter was designed to show you that Jesus as a leader to Peter and to correct him or govern over him when he allow Satan to get him to say something that was outside of the will of God. The same way that Paul as a leader had to correct Peter when he allowed Satan get him to act outside of the will of God by being a hypocrite. The point was to show you a simple example of a leader correcting someone and the reason why it is important.

7. See you simply lack an understanding of how the church works and how the leadership within the church works. There are layers to the church that go like this: You have the people that are completely lost and are new to the faith they need the guidance of their leaders to help guide them and to help them grow in Christ the right way. This is important because Satan is able to pull people out of the will of God very easily.

Now the next layer is the people that have a good understanding of the faith but they have not grown to the point of where Paul and Peter were at. These people do not need as much help as the new believers but they still need someone to remind them when they do something wrong every now and then.

Now the last group is the leader the people that have the highest relationship with God. Now these people must govern the other two groups and they also must govern each other making sure that none of them end up falling for the tricks of Satan.

See I told you earlier that group leadership is fine if it is possible but if it is not possible and there is only one person that truly hears and understands the will of God then there is only one leader.

So Paul was able to correct Peter because they have the authority to govern over one another and the rest of the church or members of the body of Christ.

8. Paul directly told women not to talk during service, he directly to men to love their wives and etc. That was not advice it was a command or order. Anytime Paul gave advice he told you he was giving advice by saying it from I not the Lord. Here is an example of that:

10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. 11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.

12 But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him.

Verse 10 & 11 is a direct command from God through Paul to the people. It was not advice, it was not a suggestion it was a command.

Verse 12 is where you see Paul giving his own advice and he is clear that it is not an order but advice and this is the only time that happens.

So your entire idea that "He was giving them advice and admonishment, as a big brother in the faith" is a complete lie and something that you made up using your own corrupt mind.

In your life you have problem with authority so you picked up the Bible and figure out a way to make your view of authority right.

9. Listen my job is to tell you the truth not what you want to hear. The world and the church in today's world are corrupt. The reason for that is because even the people that believe they are following Christ are doing it the wrong way. So I will make this as clear as possible.

You do not know God.
You are not saved.
You do not know how the Holy Spirit works.
All of the people that you are saying have accepted Christ have NOT accepted Christ they have accepted the corrupted version of Christ.
I am the only person at this point that is able to teach you the right way to follow Christ and after you learn you will be another person.
If you waste this opportunity you are guaranteeing yourself a place in Hell and not Heaven.

10. You can read the bible a million times, study it a million hours and you will still get it wrong if you are using your own corrupt mind to understand it and you are not being taught by an actually person of God. Wake up the people that killed Jesus the Pharisees were the family in charge of the entire Old Testament and they still got it wrong.

11. Even if we accept the fact that there were other letters that the people studied that does not change the fact that Paul governed through the letters meaning as a leader he had the right to govern the people.

12. "John clearly states that there is a time in a believer"s life when outside teaching is done" This shows that you understand that John was talking to believers who had already grown in their walk with Christ which is exactly what I said. This passage is not talking to you because you have not even started your walk with Christ you are still running in circles fighting yourself. Satan wants you to believe you are doing things right when you are not because you will stop looking for the truth and you will fight for the truth you believe you have. That is why I started by explaining that EVERYTHING you know and have learned about Christ is wrong and until you accept that and decide to start over and learn you will be lost.

Also if you are in any position of leadership that is related to God or to Christ or the church you need to resign ASAP. You do not need to teach or lead anyone to do what you are currently doing because you currently have no idea what you are doing.

13. You are clueless in your crazy attempt to prove yourself right you have just taken away the authority of the writings of Paul. The Bible including the writings of Paul are the word of God meaning his writing are instructions to them and us all.

14. I do not need to address your statement of what the role of the leaders in the church are because you do not know. You are just making blind baseless statements.

15. Let me make this clear to you. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT THIS DEBATE OR ABOUT WINNING VOTES. I am talking to you to give you an opportunity to save your soul and so that you are able to learn the right way to follow Christ.

I just told every person that believed they were a Christian that they are not. That alone should make me lose this debate. The bible is clear that most people will not follow Christ the right way and very few will actually make it through the narrow gate.

So the real reality is that if you do not receive my words you will win yourself a place in Hell which is truly sad.
Debate Round No. 3
JGomez

Pro

Well, now I must apologize to the readers of this debate for having invited a crazy person to the party. You know, that guy who someone invites that ends up getting drunk and breaking everything, running through the neighborhood naked. Well, that's my opponent, apparently, for this particular debate.

Let's dive right into the shallow water:

FAILURE TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE TO PROVE HIS POINT

The opponent has failed to prove that he understand the Bible, never mind actually proving his side of the debate. There not much to argue about the ACTUAL topic, so let me try and focus it on the little there is.

PEOPLE BLINDLY FOLLOWING PAUL

Believers did not blindly follow Paul. It is a matter of common knowledge that some of the churches had issues with Paul. Some did not like his style at all. Neither did some of the apostles.

So, no, I don't need to be "following" anyone by the Holy Spirit, according to Jesus Himself.

EXAMPLES OF JESUS/PETER, PETER/PAUL

Jesus was Peter's leader. Jesus is EVERYONE'S leader. Paul was NOT Peter's leader, therefore was not exerting ANY level of authority over Peter in rebuking him. He was using his own authority as a believer, which Peter could have also done.
Once again, failure to show how one man is appointed as leader over a local assembly. Only that believers individually have authority, except over Christ.

"LAYERS WITHIN THE CHURCH"

The Bible talks of no such layers. You are making all of this up and it is absolutely disturbing. The scriptures make NO SUCH DISTINCTION between the classes of people you are talking about. You are apparently classifying yourself as the third kind. How absolutely disturbing.

I know the Holy Spirit VERY well, and have a wonderful relationship with Christ. You have failed to prove otherwise, yet you claim this as a basis for your argument.

EXAMPLES OF PAUL GIVING "COMMANDS FROM GOD"

Paul did not issue commandments. Paul had no authority to do so. He taught principles. He taught doctrine. He passed on the doctrine of the apostles. Paul was passing on the teachings, not making up new ones, as he had no authority to do so. So, these "commands" are not from Paul at all. They are from Christ. He makes that clear when he states, "yet not I but the Lord".

YOUR JOB TO THE WORLD

Unfortunately, you are wrong again. You "job" is not to spew your brand of misinterpretation and pass it off as "truth". There are a few signs of how errant you are:

1. You state that I do not know God. Yet, do not know that in any way. I happen to know God very well.

2. You state that I am not saved. Yet, you do not know that in any way and I am by every scriptural definition and spiritual evidence.

3. You state that I do not know how the Holy Spirit works. Yet, you don"t know that in any way and I happen to have worked with the Holy Spirit all my life.

4. You state that everyone has accepted the corrupt version of Christ. Yet, you do not know what version of Christ everyone has accepted. So, you are errant, arrogant, and wrong.

5. You state that you are the "only person at this point that is able to teach" me the "right way to follow Christ". That has proven to be false. You are not the Holy Spirit and are now bordering on antichrist behavior.

6. You state that I am guaranteed a place in hell for wasting my opportunity to have you "teach". This is untrue according to scripture. Frankly, go to hell.

OPPONENT: "You can read the bible a million times, study it a million hours and you will still get it wrong if you are using your own corrupt mind to understand it and you are not being taught by an actually person of God"

Absolute dung. The Church did not have the scriptures for over 300 years. The scriptures were kept from the people for hundreds more. Yet, the Holy Spirit still preserved His church. You are a heretic, by every sense of the word.

UNRELATED DIALOGUE & NONSENSE

At this point in the debate, there is no actual exchange of information. You are making ridiculous statements about people who don't listen to YOU SPECIFICALLY going to hell, resigning from positions, and not knowing what they are doing. At 27 years old, you are a heretic and a slanderer. I fear for the well-being of anyone you are pastoring. I fear that you will be the next Jim Jones. How terrible.

I'm actually struggling to tell whether you are being serious in this debate or not. It's so over the top.
TheTrueBodyofChrist

Con

Like I said I do not care about this debate it was about giving you an opportunity to learn the right way to follow Christ and you have allowed your own stubbornness to stop you from learning. Honestly there is no point in saying anything else until you are actually ready to start over and learn the right way to follow Christ. So at this point I am going to brush the dust from my feet and move on.

If you decide to change your ways and you decide you are ready to start over and learn the right way to follow Christ The True Body of Christ is here to help you do that. You can give us a call at 1-818-273-1044.

As for the debate I am done. God Bless.
Debate Round No. 4
JGomez

Pro

In conclusion, my opponent has failed to demonstrate any sort of true knowledge of the topic at hand, nor any conclusive evidence to his point. Therefore, I will reiterate the initial premise, that the Bible does not give one person authority to govern a local church. Christ distributed authority, kingship, and the priesthood to all Believers.

Everything else in this discussion is nonsense. Opponent may feel free to summarize his points in writing. Christ does not require a person to call a phone number to learn someone's twisted version of the "truth".
TheTrueBodyofChrist

Con

If you decide to change your ways and you decide you are ready to start over and learn the right way to follow Christ The True Body of Christ is here to help you do that. You can give us a call at 1-818-273-1044.

As for the debate I am done. God Bless.
Debate Round No. 5
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by TheTrueBodyofChrist 1 year ago
TheTrueBodyofChrist
You are having a hard time listening so I will say this one more time then I am done with this and will not respond. If you decide to change your ways and you decide you are ready to start over and learn the right way to follow Christ The True Body of Christ is here to help you do that. You can give us a call at 1-818-273-1044.

As for the debate I am done. God Bless.
Posted by JGomez 1 year ago
JGomez
BTW - everything you are saying about me applies to you. You are rejecting truth. There is nothing to substantiate your claim to it. Nothing at all. So, make a case in a new debate if you mean business.
Posted by JGomez 1 year ago
JGomez
Let's hold another debate on what the truth gospel of Christ is. Present your version of the "truth" that no one knows but you. Start a new debate and make your case. Invite me to it. I'm not calling your psychic line. Make your case plainly and stop horsing around, or shut up.
Posted by TheTrueBodyofChrist 1 year ago
TheTrueBodyofChrist
Listen Jesus the son of God taught people and they rejected His words. So the reality is that I have spoken truth you are just deciding to reject it which is your freewill decision. My job is to give you the opportunity if you accept it or reject it is completely up to you.

Also if I was a fraud I would not be giving you a phone number I would hide behind the computer but believe what you want. God Bless.
Posted by JGomez 1 year ago
JGomez
You have not demonstrated in any way that you know what you are talking about. How have not presented any sort of gospel. You have not presented any truth. You have advertised a phone number. You are a fraud.
Posted by TheTrueBodyofChrist 1 year ago
TheTrueBodyofChrist
Again I did not care about the debate it was an opportunity to save your soul. You are just trying to find a way to make yourself feel better about not knowing anything and about not walking with Christ the right way. God Bless.
Posted by JGomez 1 year ago
JGomez
You've successfully managed to waste everyone's time.
Posted by JGomez 1 year ago
JGomez
The terms of the debate are made clear by its premise and opening statement. Clearly if you cannot understand something that simple, I cannot fault you with understanding more complex matters, nor is this even a fair debate. My apologies for inviting you to a conversation that you are clearly no qualified to have. Good night.
Posted by TheTrueBodyofChrist 1 year ago
TheTrueBodyofChrist
I did not tell you that I wanted to debate the topic that you provided. I told you that you did not know what you where talking about and then you decided to challenge me to a debate. Then you told me about this website which I did not know anything about until today. Then I started the debate by telling you in detail why you do not know what you are talking about. So my position has not changed from the start.
Posted by JGomez 1 year ago
JGomez
Once again, your tricks are for weak minds. I expected integrity, honor, and an educated debate based on scripture. You simply lied about wanting to the debate the premise at hand in order to have an excuse to spread your false gospel via a telephone number which you will undoubtedly use to wrestle money from the pocket of people. This clearly demonstrates the type of tactics you use.

There is no honesty or honor in what you do.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by LaughItUpLydia 1 year ago
LaughItUpLydia
JGomezTheTrueBodyofChristTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Both debaters were quite argumentatively competitive in a good way. However, Con was off topic in the first and second round due to his forcing his beliefs onto the platform of what Christianity really is while he was supposed to debate why the Bible "does give one person authority to govern a local church." Pro presented more arguments concerning the topic and proved his case throughout. But at the same time, Con had a great many of facts pertaining to why Christianity is not a democracy, therefore I will keep 'convincing arguments' at a tie.