The Instigator
Microsuck
Pro (for)
Winning
26 Points
The Contender
lannan13
Con (against)
Losing
1 Points

The Bible is Not God's Word

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
Microsuck
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/15/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,702 times Debate No: 22029
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (8)
Votes (5)

 

Microsuck

Pro

Greetings,

The full resolution is "On balance of probability, the Bible is not God's word."

=====> Debate Guidelines <======

Rounds:

1. Terms and abstract
2. Opening arguments
3. CX/1st R
4. CX/2nd R
5. Closing

For the purposes of this debate, the Bible will be the 66 books accepted by all Christians. The Catholic/Orthodox Deutercanonical books are not in play because of this.

"Improbable" will be defined as less than 50%.

The BoP is shared.

The time limit between replies is 72 hours. If special circumstances arise, one side may ask the other to wait out his or her remaining time. If one side explicitly concedes or violates any of these terms, then all seven points will be awarded to the other. By accepting this challenge, you agree to these terms.

=====>Abstract<======

This is a quick summary of my case in syllogism form. This was made by Theodore Drange: [1]

(A) If the God of evangelical Christianity were to exist, then the Bible would be God's only written revelation.

(B) Thus, if that deity were to exist, then he would probably see to it that the Bible is perfectly clear and authoritative, and lack the appearance of merely human authorship.

(C) Some facts about the Bible are the following:

  1. It contradicts itself or is very unclear in many places.
  2. It contains factual errors, including unfulfilled prophecies.
  3. It contains ethical defects (such as God committing or ordering atrocities).
  4. It contains interpolations (later insertions to the text).
  5. Different copies of the same biblical manuscripts say conflicting things.
  6. The biblical canon involves disputes and is apparently arbitrary.
  7. There is no objective procedure for settling any of the various disputes, especially since the original manuscripts of the Bible have been lost and there has been no declaration from God that would help resolve any of the disputes.

(D) Therefore [from C], the Bible is not perfectly clear and authoritative, and has the appearance of merely human authorship.

(E) Hence [from B & D], probably the God of evangelical Christianity does not exist.

http://www.infidels.org...


Good luck :-)
lannan13

Con

A) God work in many ways such as miracles
B) People can't just wish for a car and get it God doesn't work that way.
C) Abortion is bad even in terms of rape.
D) God works through many people such as Nosotrodamus.
E) If God didn't exist neither would we. Everything is from intelligent design.

I await my opponet...
Debate Round No. 1
Microsuck

Pro

I thank my partner for his abstract. Please note that all Bible quotes are from the English Standard Version (ESV) except where noted.

-->Case<--

1) The Bible contains contradictions

What year was Jesus born?

Luke 2 reports that Jesus' birth happened the during the reign of Qurinius:

In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first registration when Quirinius was governor of Syria. And all went to be registered, each to his own town. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the town of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, to be registered with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child.

This phrase is revealing because we know Quirinius was govenor of Syria in 6 CE. We also know that it was around 6 CE when this took place. [1]

Matthew, on the other hand, puts it at a very different date: 6 BCE:

Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

We know from Josephus and various sources throughout that time that Herod the king was king until his death in 6 BCE. [2] Therefore, Matthew puts him at a later date at 4-6 BCE; a hole decade earlier.

This error isn't the only one. According to Matthew, magis come to worship the newborn king which infuriates king Herod. Luke describes Jesus being presented to the high priests in honor of the law and the "prophet" and "prophetess" pronounce him as the Messiah. [3] It seems unreasonable that this event would not have escaped Herod's memory/murderous eye.

The interlinership

After the events in Matthew, the boy Jesus escapes to Egypt to escape Herod's rampage. On the other hand, Luke leaves out this story and takes Mary, Joseph, and newborn Jesus back to Nazarreth where they stayed: And when they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own town of Nazareth. And the child grew and became strong, filled with wisdom. And the favor of God was upon him.
This event in bold only takes 40 days. Not enough time to escape to Egypt and go back and stay in a house!

2) It contains factual errors, including unfulfilled prophecies

Failed prophecy of Tyre:

Ezekiel 26:7

“For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, and with horsemen and a host of many soldiers. He will kill with the sword your daughters on the mainland. He will set up a siege wall against you and throw up a mound against you, and raise a roof of shields against you. He will direct the shock of his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. His horses will be so many that their dust will cover you. Your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen and wagons and chariots, when he enters your gates as men enter a city that has been breached. With the hoofs of his horses he will trample all your streets. He will kill your people with the sword, and your mighty pillars will fall to the ground. They will plunder your riches and loot your merchandise. They will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses. Your stones and timber and soil they will cast into the midst of the waters. And I will stop the music of your songs, and the sound of your lyres shall be heard no more. I will make you a bare rock. You shall be a place for the spreading of nets. You shall never be rebuilt, for I am the LORD; I have spoken, declares the Lord GOD.

None of this ever happend. After a 13 year seige, Nebuchadnezzar abandoned Tyre and reached a compromised agreement. Although Tyre was destroyed by Alexander the Great, it was rebuilt. [3] In fact, the New Testament records Jesus visiting the city of Tyre after its alleged destruction.

Matthew 15:21: "And Jesus went away from there and withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon."

3) The Bible contains interpolations


Luke 4:
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.

This is allegedly a direct quote from Isaiah 61. The only problem is that Jesus and/or Luke interpolated the bolded phrase to make Is. 61 appear to be about Jesus. This is a misquote.

I John 5:7-8: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: And these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood..."

The bolded phrase is an interpolation appearing in no Greek manuscript; only appearing in the Latin Vulgate and in the KJV. [5]


4) Different manuscripts say conflicting things

"Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons. 10She went and reported to those who had been with Him, while they were mourning and weeping. 11And when they heard that He was alive, and had been seen by her, they refused to believe it. 12And after that, He appeared in a different form to two of them, while they were walking along on their way to the country. 13And they went away and reported it to the others, but they did not believe them either. 14And afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17"And these signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it shall not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." 19So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed," (NASB).

These are omitted in two of the earliest manuscripts [6] and have not been quoted by any of the church fathers.

There is also another ending to Mark [7]:

"But they reported briefly to Peter and those with him all that had been told. And after this Jesus himself sent out by means of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation."

| Conclusion |

The Bible as we have it is impure and is not the work of a divine God who is all pure. The Bible contains contradictions, interpolations, misquotes other scripture, and contains failed prophecies.

Thank you.


-->References<--

1. http://www.infidels.org...
2. Nelson Study Bible KJV; notes on Matthew 2

3. Luke 2:22-38.
4. The Rejection of Pascal's Wager: A Skeptics Guide to Christianity
5. Ryrie Study Bible notes on 1 John 5. King James Version.
6. Nelson KJV, Mark 16
7. http://carm.org...;
lannan13

Con

All I have to do to win this debate since the title is The Bible isn't God's word, is to proove that the Bible is refurred to as the word of God and in this site and in my church it is refurred to as the Word of God. So don't let my opponet confuse you with all these reasons that the Bible contradicts its self. But for the sake of debating I'll continue. http://www.godandscience.org...
1. Luke and Mathew are apposals they both fallow Jesus around this planet. When He died they locked themselves in a room. (Pentecost). When the Pentecost happened they were given the ability to speak different langues. When people go out into the world they changed things up a little to adapt to the people so they would convert. Just like the fact Jesus was born in the Spring, but we Celebrate Christmas in the winter, because at that time many pagan religions had a holiday at the winter solisise, so they changed it.
2. It still fell. Who knows God could've worked with Alexander. He was very superstios.
3. This is simply refurring to the Holy Trinity.
4. 4) Different manuscripts say conflicting things

"Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons. 10She went and reported to those who had been with Him, while they were mourning and weeping. 11And when they heard that He was alive, and had been seen by her, they refused to believe it. 12And after that, He appeared in a different form to two of them, while they were walking along on their way to the country. 13And they went away and reported it to the others, but they did not believe them either. 14And afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17"And these signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it shall not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." 19So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed," (NASB).
These are omitted in two of the earliest manuscripts [6] and have not been quoted by any of the church fathers.

There is also another ending to Mark [7]:
"But they reported briefly to Peter and those with him all that had been told. And after this Jesus himself sent out by means of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation."

For the First one could you clear that up a bit. Second one refurrs to the fact that heaven is neither east or west you just should look for it, because it isn't Earthly.





6. Now here's 3 test's preformed to see if God is in the Bible (this is from my earlier source if pasted it in case the link doesn't open.

Montgomery proposes three tests. The first test is "What each remedy revealed about the son's father." Evidence from the creation (2) strongly argues for the existence of a god who is personal, powerful, eternal, wise, and moral. The Bible declares all of these attributes of God.

Montgomery's second test is "How accurate each remedy pictures the nature of the disease." Many of the liberal and humanistic religions stress the basic goodness of man's nature. They say corruption comes from society. This goes contrary to the facts of history and logic (see 'People are Basically Good' - Proof to the Contrary). History reveals that man is not basically good; he is basically selfish and sinful. The liberal view is also illogical because society is a group of individual people. To blame the situation of the world on society is to blame it on people. This is exactly what the Bible teaches: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

Montgomery's third test is "How sound the various curative methods appear to be." If God has revealed Himself in propositional form, that revelation would have certain properties due to His infinite knowledge and moral perfection:

  1. It would be entirely true - His infinite knowledge would prevent errors and His truthfulness would keep Him from deception.
  2. It would be a coherent unity, therefore not self- contradictory.
  3. It would contain God's will for man, and provide the motivation to live according to that will (3).
Debate Round No. 2
Microsuck

Pro

Greetings,
I'd like to thank my partner for his swift reply to my argument. Unfortunately, my partner made several mistakes that I wish to point out in this round.

-->Rebuttals<--


All I have to do to win this debate since the title is The Bible isn't God's word, is to proove (sic) that the Bible is refurred (sic) to as the word of God and in this site and in my church it is refurred (sic) to as the Word of God....

This is false. My partner made an argumentum ad populum. Based on this logic, the Quran is the Word of God because it is referred to as the Word of God on this site (Mirza, baggains) and in local mosques as the Word of God.

On point 1, what evidence do you have that Matthew and Luke were given the ability to speak in different languages? Likewise, this ability has been reported in different religions as well such as several Japanese folk tales [1] and other pagan faiths as well. [2]

On point 2, I don't quite get what you are referring to. What about Alexander? If you are referring to Alexander the Great, he was a pagan king who declared HIMSELF as a god! [3]


Different manuscripts say conflicting things

My partner refutes absolutely NOTHING. What I mean is, if the Bible is God's Word, then it should be clear; especially in terms of salvation and which books belong in the Bible.

Second one refurrs (sic) to the fact that heaven is neither east or west you just should look for it, because it isn't Earthly.

This is irrelavent and I have absolutely no clue what you are trying to get across.

Three tests to see if God is in the Bible

1) What each remedy revealed about the Son's father:

Please explain a bit deeper. Can you prove the creation account actually happened?

2) How accurate each remedy pictures the nature of the disease.

Many of the liberal and humanistic religions stress the basic goodness of man's nature. They say corruption comes from society. This goes contrary to the facts of history and logic (see 'People are Basically Good' - Proof to the Contrary). History reveals that man is not basically good; he is basically selfish and sinful. The liberal view is also illogical because society is a group of individual people. To blame the situation of the world on society is to blame it on people. This is exactly what the Bible teaches: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

How is this suppose to prove the divine origins of the Bible?!!?

-->Conclusion<--

My partner refuted NOTHING of what I stated and instead relied upon an argument that I have no clue what his point is! Please vote pro.

-->References<--

1. http://www.jstor.org...;

2. http://www.speaking-in-tongues.net...;

3. http://grad.usask.ca...;


lannan13

Con

Sorry I have to gve this debate to Microsuck. I'm on vacation and don't have the time to do this.
Debate Round No. 3
Microsuck

Pro

I humbly accept my partner's forfeit. A quick and speedy recovery to you!
lannan13

Con

Thank you and God bless.
Debate Round No. 4
Microsuck

Pro

Not a problem. I'm sorry we could not finish the debate.
lannan13

Con

True, I would say vote tie but you clearly won.
Debate Round No. 5
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by annanicole 4 years ago
annanicole
Oh, boy, I was pullin' for the con, but I see that my pom-poms and cheers are gonna be futile.
Posted by AdamDeben 4 years ago
AdamDeben
Watch Zeitgeist The Movie (free on youtube)
It explains clearly that Jesus is based on Astrology and so is Moses and Joseph. Jesus is the sun god.
Posted by thomas44 4 years ago
thomas44
Let's not forget the spellcheck option at the bottom of the page..
Posted by Microsuck 4 years ago
Microsuck
Exactly what I'll do.
Posted by annanicole 4 years ago
annanicole
I would reduce your "facts" under (c) to 1 or 2 points for discussion.
Posted by imabench 4 years ago
imabench
Im guessing your going to FF half way through this round too?
Posted by TheApologist 4 years ago
TheApologist
I would love to take this debate but I do not match the instigators age rank criteria. Oh well, I'll just watch and maybe add a tip or two for con.
Posted by logicrules 4 years ago
logicrules
wow.....lets all go in circles.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by 1dustpelt 4 years ago
1dustpelt
Microsucklannan13Tied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: ff
Vote Placed by wiploc 4 years ago
wiploc
Microsucklannan13Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit
Vote Placed by Stephen_Hawkins 4 years ago
Stephen_Hawkins
Microsucklannan13Tied
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Total points awarded:61 
Reasons for voting decision: Concession.
Vote Placed by TUF 4 years ago
TUF
Microsucklannan13Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: forfeit.
Vote Placed by 16kadams 4 years ago
16kadams
Microsucklannan13Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: conceded