The Instigator
OtakuJordan
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
Cade_Griffin
Con (against)
Losing
1 Points

The Bible is not inerrant

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
OtakuJordan
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/27/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 695 times Debate No: 43015
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
Votes (1)

 

OtakuJordan

Pro

The first round will be for acceptance. Trolling will result in a full seven-point loss.

Best of luck.
Cade_Griffin

Con

The Bible, an ancient text that dates back to about 2,000 years (possibly even more) is a text held sacred by many Christians of different affiliations. It, as a whole, cannot contradict itself. The Bible is a complete truth and has no errors in its original form (Hebrew)
Debate Round No. 1
OtakuJordan

Pro

Thank you for accepting, Con.

I shall now present some contradictions to be found within the pages of Holy Writ.

The number of fighting men in Israel
"Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand." -2 Samuel 24:9

"
Joab reported the number of the fighting men to David: In all Israel there were one million one hundred thousand men who could handle a sword, including four hundred and seventy thousand in Judah." -1 Chronicles 21:5

Here we have two records of the same event that clearly contradict each other on the point of how many warriors there were in Israel.

The place of Josiah's death
"
In his days Pharaoh Neco king of Egypt went up to the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates. King Josiah went to meet him, and Pharaoh Neco killed him at Megiddo, as soon as he saw him. And his servants carried him dead in a chariot from Megiddo and brought him to Jerusalem and buried him in his own tomb. And the people of the land took Jehoahaz the son of Josiah, and anointed him, and made him king in his father's place." -2 Kings 23:29-30

"
And the archers shot King Josiah. And the king said to his servants, "Take me away, for I am badly wounded." So his servants took him out of the chariot and carried him in his second chariot and brought him to Jerusalem. And he died and was buried in the tombs of his fathers. All Judah and Jerusalem mourned for Josiah." -2 Chronicles 35:23-24

Did King Josiah die instantly at the battle of Megiddo and then have his dead body transported to Jerusalem, or was he wounded at Megiddo and then carried alive to Jerusalem where he died?

The angelic appearance before the women
"
There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it." -Matthew 28:2

"
As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed." -Mark 16:5

"
While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them." - Luke 28:4

"...
and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot." -John 20:12

So, did the angel descend from heaven in front of the women and then roll the stone away in their presence and sit down upon it? Or did they find the stone rolled away and enter to find an angel sitting inside? Or did they enter and have two angels suddenly appear standing beside them? Or did they enter to find two angels sitting inside?

Conclusion
I look forward to Con's response. I may present more examples of error later in the debate.
Cade_Griffin

Con

First, I find this intriguing, thank you for giving me some food for thought as I was not expecting these at all. :)

The number of fighting men in Israel

"And Joab gave the sum of the numbering of the people to the king: in Israel there were 800,000 valiant men who drew the sword, and the men of Judah were 500,000" -2 Samuel 24:9 (ESV)

"And Joab gave the sum of the numbering of the people to David. In all Israel there were 1,100,000 men who drew the sword, and in Judah 470,000 who drew the sword." -1 Chronicles 21:5 (ESV)

I will give you that both numbers are different though I will provide a solution to the varience in numbers. In the first recording shown above (2 Samuel 24:9) it says that 800,000 valiant men who drew the sword were recorded. The valiant men are veterans who have fought in wars before and are seasoned, whereas in the second recording (1 Chronicles 21:5) 1,100,000 men who drew the sword were recording, meaning that the other 300,000 men had not seen war before, but knew how to use a weapon.

In the first recording (2 Samuel 24:9) there were 500,000 men recorded in Judah while in the second recording (1 Chronicles 21:5) there were 470,000 men in Judah who drew the sword, meaning men who were able to use the sword, which means the other 30,000 men were incapable of using a sword because of being too old or young men who just didn't know how (Though I feel as though the second isn't so plausible since weilding a sword was important, then)

The place of Josiah's death

"In his days Pharaoh Neco king of Egypt went up to the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates. King Josiah went to meet him, and Pharaoh Neco killed him at Megiddo, as soon as he saw him. And his servants carried him dead in a chariot from Megiddo and brought him to Jerusalem and buried him in his own tomb. And the people of the land took Jehoahaz the son of Josiah, and anoited him, and made him king in his father's place. -2 Kings 23:29-30 (ESV)

"And the archers shot king Josiah. And the king said to his servants 'Take me away, for I am badly wounded.' So his servants took him out of the chariot and brought him to Jerusalem. And he died and was buried in the tombs of his fathers. All Judah and Jerusalem mourned for Josiah." -2 Chronicles 35:23-24 (ESV)

This one can also be explained. Please consult the bold print in the first verse (2 Kings 23:29-30) the Pharaoh Neco did indeed kill Josiah when they met in Megiddo, as soon as he saw him, but this does not mean that he died immediately. Josiah had the breath to command his servants to take him away, and he did indeed die, though it was not specified where he died (In Jerusalem or Megiddo) even so Pharaoh Neco would have killed him even if he died in Jerusalem or Megiddo due to the fact that it was the wound inflicted by the Pharaoh that brought king Josiah to death. Neither verse specifically states that Josiah was dead in Megiddo OR Jerusalem, but that Neco administered the final blow that would kill king Josiah.

The angelic appearance before the women

"And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it."-Matthew 28:2 (ESV)

"And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe, and they were alarmed."-Mark 16:5 (ESV)

"But when they went in they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel.Luke 24:3-4 (ESV) There is no Luke 28 so I assumed that this is the verse that you meant.

"And she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had lain, one at the head and one at the feet." -John 20:12 (ESV)

Matthew 28:2 is merely describing what an angel did BEFORE the women arrived. Also, this angel invites the women inside the tomb (Matthew 28:6) Which is where they encounter the two angels inside the tomb.

Mark 16:5 & Luke 24:3-4. These two were in the same event though in Mark one angel is described, while in Luke two angels are described. This is explained by the fact that different people described the same event. There were more than one eye witness to this event, one eye witness merely mentioned only one angel, while another mentioned that there were two. Neither are wrong, but both are right. One just happened to think it was more important to mention just one angel, while the other felt it was more important to mention that there were two angels inside of this tomb.

John 20:12 describes a second visit to the tomb between Mary Magdalene and two angels, this was AFTER the women had gone to fetch the disciples to see that Jesus was gone, so this is a different event entirely from the other three books.

Comments:
Very good, I'm liking this so far. Thank you for giving well thought out questions. :)
Debate Round No. 2
OtakuJordan

Pro

Thank you for providing one of the most thoughtful responses to these points that I have received.

The number of fighting men in Israel
If, as you say, the criteria for the numbers Joab presented were different in the two accounts, there are several resulting problems for the view of biblical inerrancy.

First of all, why are the accounts different? The standard inerrantist rebuttal would be to say that a lack of inclusion does not mean a lack of happening, but we must question why one biblical author would include a different statistic than the other. If one considered one to be important enough to include, we would assume that the other would also.

Secondly, there is no real reason to think that there is a difference between "men who drew the sword and" and "valiant men who drew the sword." The word valiant simply refers to a man who is a warrior in biblical Hebrew.[1] It carries no implication of being a veteran.

Thirdly, David's purpose in numbering Israel was clearly to determine the might of his kingdom.[2] Including men incapable of battle would, therefore, have been pointless.

The place of Josiah's death
The reading my opponent offers is extremely tortured. While it is indeed true that "killed" may mean "mortally wounded" in certain contexts, it is far from the natural reading in this instance. This alone raises challenges to the inerrantist view that the Bible is perfect as literary work.

Also, 2 Chronicles says that Josiah died after stating that he was taken to Jerusalem, implying that the death occurred after the arrival rather than on the way.

The angelic appearance before the women
Matthew 28:2 relates that the women go the tomb before relating the incident with the angel, implying that they came to the tomb before the angel did.

As for the standard inerrantist claim that mentioning only one when two were present, etc., clearly stating that there was one angel present is not the same as saying that there were one or more or that an angel was present. If a journalist said that there were three people present at a Tea Party rally, we would accuse him of dishonesty and bias when it turned out there were 300, no matter how much he protested that he did not state that there were only three.

As for your point about John, no angelic encounter is mentioned in their first visit to the tomb and they go away thinking that Christ's body has been stolen, not that he has been resurrected. Clearly it is not until the next visit, the visit that I referenced, when they encounter the angel(s).

Sources
1. http://www.abibleconcordance.com...
2. http://www.ucg.org...
Cade_Griffin

Con

Thank you for the compliment. The same goes for you.

The Number Of Fighting Men In Israel
There were two different authors for these books, the King's chronicler (1 Chronicles) and the author of Samuel is unkown. Different things are important to different people. What may be important for you may not be as important to me.

I tried to look at your concordance reference to strengthen your argument but I could not find an explanation in the link as to why it negates my current argument that valiant men are veterans when referring to the bible.

Pointless or no it is included. Though I do not see in any of the versions that I'm reading that this census was for the purpose of the might of David's kingdom (Might, I'm going to assume, meaning men capable of fighting) but merely a counting of the men in his kingdom.

But the point of this debate is to find errors in the Bible. I have provided a solution (thus far) as to why this isn't true in this case. Finding out why it's different or why the numbers aren't exactly the same in both books is invalid since the question in this debate is: "Is the Bible not completely true?"
So far I have held that even with the differing numbers the Bible is still true as a complete whole.

The Place Of Josiah's Death
If I am not to take the scriptures as they are written how then must I debate on a matter of the Bible? If you are to mean that I am taking this argument in this instance out of context please enlighten me, as I do not see how.

And we shall say that I agree with Josiah dying on the way to Jerusalem since I have no other argument that would negate that other than the one that I've written above (That doesn't state for or against Josiah dying in Jerusalem) I do not see how this would be against my current argument that the Pharaoh did indeed inflict the killing blow in Josiah.

The Angelic Appearance Before The Women
In Matthew 28:2 even if they witnessed the angel and the earthquake it would just mean they saw that one as well as the other two angels.

Though this same journalist could say that they talked to three people at the party without mentioning that there were 300 people there and they would not be wrong. Which is what we are faced with. Two angels were present inside the tomb though only one book of the Bible mentioned it and the other one mentioned two

John 20:12 is still only mentioning Mary Magdalene and her account of this encounter.
Debate Round No. 3
OtakuJordan

Pro

Thank you for your response.

The number of fighting men in Israel
I will grant you that "different things are important to different people." However, a key tenet of inerrancy is plenary verbal inspiration, which can be defined as the belief that God inspired the entire canon and that this inspiration extends to the words chosen by the writers.[1] With this in mind, the question of why the two accounts are different poses a serious problem to inerrancy.

The Strong's Concordance reference I provided lists the meanings and the nuances of said meanings for the Hebrew word we translate as "valiant" in our modern English Bibles. The claim that it implies that a man is a veteran is not borne out by this authoritative concordance.

I would agree, in a sense, that the Bible is true as a whole. However, that is not what we are debating. The doctrine of inerrancy states that there are absolutely no errors within Holy Writ and that it is perfect in every way.

The place of Josiah's death
Actually, I am saying that you should take the Scriptures as they are written. The problem is that any natural reading of the two accounts of Josiah's death has it occurring at different times, while you are forcing the accounts to fit your view of inerrancy. If someone read either account in isolation of the other they would have two different ideas about what happened. This lack of clarity poses a challenge to the doctrine of inerrancy because of its tenet that the Bible is perfect in every way.

Notice that I did not claim that one account says he died on the way to Jerusalem: "Also, 2 Chronicles says that Josiah died after stating that he was taken to Jerusalem, implying that the death occurred after the arrival rather than on the way."

In contrast, 2 Kings says that he was carried dead in the chariot from the battle: "And his servants carried him dead in a chariot from Megiddo." This does not leave room for the claim that he was merely mortally wounded at the battle and then died on his way to Jerusalem or at Jerusalem.

The angelic appearance before the women
Even if I concede that the accounts of Matthew and John do not contradict (which would then mean that, as my opponent explains it, there were actually three angels at the tomb instead of the traditional three), this still does not explain the inconsistency between Mark and Luke. Was there "a young men dressed in a white robe" and sitting as they entered, or were there "two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning" that suddenly appeared standing next to the women after they had already entered and were standing about confused?

Thank you for a good debate, Con. Best of luck.

Sources
1. http://www.theopedia.com...
Cade_Griffin

Con

The Number Of Fighting Mem In Israel
As far as God speaking to the authors and them being inspired to write the Bible, I have no argument. I stand by my opinion that I still see no error in this as I have provided possible solutions and do not see the big deal in the two accounts having different numbers because of this possibility. It may be that I am not understanding you correctly or I am not presenting myself correctly, but this makes sense in my mind.

I will agree with you that valiant men could very well not mean veteran. I won't pretend that it absolutely does, especially since I have no evidence to back up my claim, what I have presented on that is just a suggestion or an opinion.

The Place Of Josiah's Death
I cannot argue this any further as I see my opponent's side of the argument and, at this time, I have no counter argument. Though I still stand by the fact that either way the Pharaoh did indeed kill Josiah. (Though this may not matter to the debate or argument)

The Angelic Appearance Before The Women
I still stand by that there were 3 angels in total. One outside the tomb and two inside the tomb. But as far as any elaboration on the event, I have no more to give.

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate this topic.
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by dj21 2 years ago
dj21
I enjoyed reading this debate. Congrats both on good arguments and classy behavior. Cade, I am curious: do you believe the Bible is infallible or inerrant? I ask because you said, "It, as a whole, cannot contradict itself."

If something is not falsiable, (i.e. not capable of shown false) can it ever be regarded as true? If something is untestable, can it ever be more than an unverifiable theory or assertion?
Posted by OtakuJordan 2 years ago
OtakuJordan
Thank you for the debate, Cade.
Posted by Cade_Griffin 2 years ago
Cade_Griffin
I tend to see things through to the end. So you have no need to worry about me forfeiting.
Posted by OtakuJordan 2 years ago
OtakuJordan
Yes, that is exactly what the debate is about. Will you be able to complete this debate without forfeiting?
Posted by Cade_Griffin 2 years ago
Cade_Griffin
Just to make sure that I understand the topic correctly:
What is to be debated is whether or not the Bible contains errors or is contradictory to itself? And you hold the opinion that the Bible is most definitely not perfect and holds contradictions and errors?
If so, I will oppose and accept this debate, if you would allow me.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 2 years ago
Ragnar
OtakuJordanCade_GriffinTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:31 
Reasons for voting decision: CONDUCT: Giving this lightly to con, for being so reasonable ex: "(Though I feel as though the second isn't so plausible since weilding a sword was important, then)" which is not to say pro did bad in this area, I am merely giving con a point lightly when voting in pro's favor anyway. ARGUMENT: Pro probably should have dropped the soldier count, but he did do a good job of using a source to try to counter the easy explanation. "Josiah's death" I was not moved by either case on, having been to war I've had friends make it to the hospital before dying, yet we still think of it as them having died in that battle. However pro came ahead on the missing angel, and tea party analogy; if mentioned reporter claimed his words were inerrant when they so badly excluded information, he might be fired. Going by con's logic, we would have no clue the total number of angels present; merely that there were at least 3. SOURCES: pro comes ahead on this, but not by enough to claim the points.