The Instigator
DeadSpace
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
robthomp012095
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points

The Bible is the infallible word of God

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
DeadSpace
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/25/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,503 times Debate No: 30697
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (1)
Votes (1)

 

DeadSpace

Con

Hello all, I would like to debate with someone (preferably a fundamentalist) that the Bible is not the infallible word of God. Anyone is welcome to accept the debate. I look forward to seeing what others have to say. The debate will go as follows:
Round 1: Acceptance
Round 2: Argument
Round 3: Rebuttal
Round 4: Rebuttal/Closing

These definitions will be used. (from Merriam Webster)
Infallible - incapable of error.
Bible - the sacred scriptures of Christians comprising the Old Testament and the New Testament.
God - the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe.
(I know they're fairly obvious, but I'd rather be specific and not deal with confusion)
robthomp012095

Pro

I am delighted that God has given me the opportunity to discuss this issue with you. I do believe that the Word of God (Bible) is the infallible Word of God. I thank you for posting this issue, and I pray that God will use me in a way that glorifies Him.

May God's Will Be Done,
Robert
Debate Round No. 1
DeadSpace

Con

I'd like to thank my opponent before starting with my argument. While my opponent was praying that God uses him in a way that glorifies him, I was doing a little bit of research myself.

I would first like to start off by asking my opponent a simple question: What makes you think that the Bible is in fact the infallible word of God? God himself never actually says them directly that the Bible was his word. Fallible imperfect human beings did. Nowhere in the Bible does it claim that all 66 books are God"s word or infallible. The doctrine of Biblical inspiration and infallibility was made up by Christian fundamentalists to create an artificial foundation for their faith. Also, I would like to ask my opponent, if the bible is in fact "incapable of error", then how are inconsistencies in the Bible possible? Here are just but a few examples of contradictions in the Bible:

Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

Prov 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Ecc 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
1 Cor 1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

Mat 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."
Luk 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."
Joh 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

Now, if the bible is the word of God and is incapable of errors, then how is it that pieces of the bible can go against what may have been previously said in the bible? Does that logically make sense that two things can contradict each other and yet still be without error?

If the Bible is true, then these conditions would be seen as real and verifiable outside of the Bible:
The universe is only six thousand years old, dinosaurs never existed, the world is flat and the earth is in the center of the universe, the Sun goes around the earth, demons, invisible spirits, ghosts, holy ghosts, demons, angels, snakes, bushes, and donkeys, can talk, virgin birth is possible, god and jesus live in the clouds above, prayer has secret powers over this god, miracles and blessing do occur, invisible souls can either be saved or unsaved, depending on what a person decides to believe in their heart, the heart is the center of all thought and emotion, people can talk to god and jesus with their heart, there is no such thing as a brain, people can be raised from the dead, people can walk on water, water can be turned into wine, 5000 people can easily be fed with two loaves and two fishes, only invisible jesus can save invisible souls, diseases are caused by demons, science is of the devil, a person can live in the belly of a whale for three days and nights, a whales'stomach acid has no effect upon humans.

Now, I'm sure that my opponent will say something along the lines of "You're not interpreting it correctly" ... which is fine. But If "God" truly wanted to inspire people with this book, then why would he make it so difficult to interpret and understand? Why would "God" (the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe) make it so difficult for us to understand if he wants us to believe in him so badly?

This is my opening argument, I look forward to my opponents response.
robthomp012095

Pro

I again want to thank my opponent for presenting this issue.

To answer my opponent's first question, my response involves Scripture. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work." (ESV)
1 Thessalonians 2:13 says "And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers. (ESV)
1 Corinthians 14:37 says "If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord." (ESV)
Jeremiah 1:9 says "Then the Lord put out his hand and touched my mouth. And the Lord said to me, 'Behold, I have put my words in your mouth.'"(ESV)
2 Peter 1:19-21 says "And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." (ESV)

To answer my opponent's 2nd question, I will use the passage of John 17:17 where Christ is praying to God the Father and says, "Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth." (ESV)

When you mention the discrepancies in the genealogies in Matthew and Luke, there are some theories behind why this is so. Scholars who specialize in genealogies around that time, believe that Heli (the one mentioned in Luke, was Mary's father, why Jacob (mentioned in Matthew), was Joseph's true father. When these books were written, it was custom to leave women out of genealogies, so numerous times you will find that genealogies of any nature, will call a man's father-in-law, their father for some reason.

When my opponent mentions the passages on wisdom, I personally believe it is a misinterpretation. Yes, God does want one to be wise, but biblical wisdom, is accompanied with humility. The two passages that were mentioned by my opponent, it is talking about wisdom that is accompanied with pride. If you continue reading in the 1 Corinthians passage, you see that Scribes and the "debaters of this age" are thrown in with this type of wisdom. The Scribes were known for their pride in religious issue. They thought they were better than all others because they had more knowledge of the scrolls. Yes, God does want His people to have wisdom, but biblical wisdom that is accompanied with humility.

To address the next few passages that my opponent mentions, I must go into detail about the books, so please bear with me.

The Gospel of according to Matthew was written by Matthew, and he wrote it addressing the Jews in Hebrew. This affected many of the things he included and left out of the Gospel of Matthew.

The Gospel according to Luke was written by Luke, and he wrote it in Greek to Theophilus. This word Theophilus in Greek was an honorary title. When translated to English, it means "friend of God" or "(be)loved by God" or "loving God." This suggests that the gospel of Luke was written to Greeks who had already come to Christ.

The Gospel according to John was written by John, and was written to gentiles. This book was written as a persuasive piece, summarizing the life of Christ. The verse that my opponent uses, John 19:30, is taken out of context. When you look at verse 28-30, you get the full context. "After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the Scripture), "I thirst." A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth. When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."
(John 19:28-30 ESV)

The Matthew text is also taken out of context. My opponent only mentions verse 46 and 50, but if you look at the verses between those two, 47-49, then you will see what he has chosen to look past. "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" And some of the bystanders, hearing it, said, "This man is calling Elijah." And one of them at once ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine, and put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink. But the others said, "Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him." And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit."
(Matthew 27:46-50 ESV)

As you can see, my opponent has chosen to pick out what does not help his case.

And in response to my opponents next paragraph, he is misguided in many ways. God and Jesus do not live in the clouds above us, and nowhere in Scripture is that stated, in fact, Scripture disproves that with the tower of Babel story. Nowhere in Scripture is it mentioned that animals can talk. Yes, the serpent in the garden was able to talk, but that is because the serpent was of the devil at the time. Nowhere in Scripture does it talk about the sun going around the earth, or that dinosaurs never existed. And yes, the earth is a young earth according to Scripture. In the genealogies leading from Adam to Jesus was 3 times 19 generations. That equals somewhere from 4,000-9,000 years. Then you add on the 2000 since Jesus, you get somewhere from 6,000-11,000 years. I personally believe it is closer to 11,000 years. And by the work of human hands, 5,000 people cannot be fed by two loafs and two fish. That was a miracle done by God, and God alone. Nowhere does it say that science is of the devil, in fact, I personally believe that science helps prove the bible when you really look at it. And no, demons do not cause diseases, but rather diseases is the result of the fall of man, or man's rebellion against God. And the story of Jonah and the whale, that again, is a miracle done by God.

And Scripture also explains why it is hard to interpret at times. In Luke, Jesus says, "Then he said to them, 'These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.' Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them..."
(ESV)

Christ had to open their minds in order for them to understand the Scriptures. Therefore, if God has not called you to understand the Scriptures at this time, then yes, it will be IMPOSSIBLE to interpret it.

May God's Will Be Done,
Robert
Debate Round No. 2
DeadSpace

Con

"The Matthew text is also taken out of context. My opponent only mentions verse 46 and 50, but if you look at the verses between those two, 47-49, then you will see what he has chosen to look past. "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" And some of the bystanders, hearing it, said, "This man is calling Elijah." And one of them at once ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine, and put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink. But the others said, "Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him." And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit."
-What my opponent seems to not understand here is what I was pointing out about those three verses. The last words of Jesus Christ were different in each book.

"Nowhere in Scripture is it mentioned that animals can talk. Yes, the serpent in the garden was able to talk, but that is because the serpent was of the devil at the time"
First of all, you state right there that the serpent talked. Also, "And the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? And Balaam said unto the donkey, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee. And the donkey said unto Balaam, Am not I thine donkey, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay." Num 22:28-30 There it clearly states that the donkey
was talking.

"Nowhere in Scripture does it talk about the sun going around the earth"
"13 And the asun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of bJasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day." Joshua 10:13

"I personally believe it is closer to 11,000 years. And by the work of human hands, 5,000 people cannot be fed by two loafs and two fish. That was a miracle done by God, and God alone. Nowhere does it say that science is of the devil, in fact, I personally believe that science helps prove the bible when you really look at it."
-The oldest discovered human fossil is approximately 1,300,000 (1.3 million) years old. That would have meant that humans lived on earth before God created either humans or the earth. In fact, depending on how much evidence you consider to be acceptable, and how you define us as a species, you could place humans at between 1.8 million and 130,000 years old. No one could sensibly claim that humans are less than 130,000 years old. SCIENCE has proved that the Earth has fossils far older than 11,000 years old. Also, Noah's Ark was logistically impossible, and there is no geological record of a global flood. These are scientific facts, and my opponent claims that they help prove the bible.

I will state a few more biblical contradictions and wait to see how my opponent responds to them.

--First on Killing--
Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put
or
Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."

--What about Lying?--
Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal."
Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him."
or
Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."

--Are we "saved" by works or faith?--
Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."
Romans 3:20,28 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."
Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."
or
James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven."

--Slavery?--
Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."
Genesis 9:25 "And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."
Exodus 21:2,7 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do."
Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it."
Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."
Colossians 3:22 "Servants, obey in all things your masters."
or
Isaiah 58:6 "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break every yoke."
Matthew 23:10 "Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

--It would also appear that "God" changes his mind in the bible--
Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
Or
Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."
See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

Also, I'd like the voters to take note that my opponent completely avoided the points of a person being able to live in the belly of a whale for three days and nights and the world being flat.

[1] http://www.the-atheist.com...
robthomp012095

Pro

I am very deeply sorry that this has happened, but I was never notified that my opponent had made his latest argument. I got on to check and see how much longer he had to post his argument, only to discover I only had 45 minutes to research and come up with my next argument. I again, and greatly grieved that there was a failure in the notification process resulting in my lack of preparation.
Debate Round No. 3
DeadSpace

Con

I will not go into another in depth argument due to my opponent's computer lacking a notification. I will just leave my opponent to respond to my round 3 argument and end with this: Gen 32:30 states, ""for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." However, John 1:18 states, "No man hath seen God at any time"" Both statements cannot be true. Either there is an error of fact, or an error of translation. In either case, there is an error. And if there is an error, then infallibility of the Bible (in this case the King James Version) is falsified. This is just one of many examples of contradictions that are found within the bible. If the bible is in fact infallible (incapable of error) then no contradictions could be possible. I ask the voters of this debate to look at the evidence provided by myself and to observe the contradictions I have placed before you. These are not opinions, these are facts. I'd like to thank my opponent for this debate and I hope that he is notified for this.
robthomp012095

Pro

Unfortunately, I was failed to be notified again. But, I checked early this time, making sure that there was no mishap.

I would also like the voters to see that my opponent called me out on avoiding the issues he stated on humans surviving in the belly of the whale for 3 days, and the world being flat. I will admit, I forgot to mention the one about the world being flat, but I will now. Nowhere in Scripture, that I can recall, does it mention that the world is flat.
I would like to point out though, that I did indeed mention the one about the whale. I probably should have been more clear on what I was talking about, but the last sentence of 3rd to last paragraph (the one where I stated all the things that Scripture didn't state that my opponent argued it did), I said this, "And the story of Jonah and the whale, that again, is a miracle done by God."

I will admit, I did miss the story about the donkey. But I will also say, that the passage did not say that the donkey did it on its own power. It clearly states that God opened the donkey's mouth. Anything can be done by God. My dog, which is sitting right next to me, could talk if God caused it to talk. That would be a miracle. But it is not God's will for my dog to talk to me right now.

I will say about what Christ said was different in the 3 passages he shared from the 3 books, yes they are different, but that doesn't mean that He never said all 3 things. The writers of these books were emphasizing different things according to who their intended audience was. They left some things out that they did not find important to share with their audience.

And the passage my opponent shared about the sun and moon standing still. Isn't it true that it was common in all literature from that time period to say things like that? Plus, nowhere does it say that the sun moves around the earth, it just said it stopped, therefore meaning the earth actually stopped. It was just the way they worded things back then.

I will say, what are the ways that they determine the age of artifacts? Carbon dating. And the way that carbon dating works, is that they determine how much ground was on top, and how much carbon was compressed into it. Could this not happen when a rush of dirt/ground is forced on top of these animals in a quick fashion with great force?

And how are fossils formed? By years of sitting in place and making its imprint on the stone right? But how would you get the fossils like the ones of fish in the process of eating other fish? The only possible explanation is that there was a great amount of ground thrust on top of them in a way that they could not escape it. The only thing that could have done this to them, is in fact the flood.

The passages shared on killing, I admit I do not know at this time. I would love to have more time to study this issue and get back to you, but for this debate I simply do not have the time.

In the verses you shared about lying, the disciples did not lie. When they were taking the donkey, the owner did come out and ask why, and they told the truth in that the Lord needed the use of it. And it is clear that owner was OK with that, given the fact that they did indeed get it to Jesus. For it was God's will for them to obtain the donkey.

The verse my opponent showed about the saved by faith and not works, but James 2:24 said faith must be accompanied by deeds. I will say, that if you look a couple verses before that, and read through that verse, you will get a better understand of that verse. It does not mean that the deeds save you, but yet that if you have a true faith with Christ, it will result in the deeds following it. It is a sign that one truly has faith, but not everyone who does the deeds will have true faith, because the deeds do not save you.

The verses you shared on slavery, I believe it was the culture then, but that is one area that I am not well studied on yet. I hope I can study it, and get an answer, but I do not have an answer right now.

And God never changed His mind, He did things that were all of His will from the beginning. For God knew all of what would and will happen on this earth, and in the universe. If you do a broader study of this area, you will see this. That is, if God calls you to understand this. Yes, it says things that God will never repent, and then in another book, it says that He repents of what He does. Those specific places, I am not well studied. And the length of this debate, does not give me the amount of time needed to get studied on this area.

I do not expect to win this debate. Not because I did a poor job debating, but because of the nature of this issue. It is an issue that "offensive" to the world. The only people who will truly understand all that I have said, are the ones whom God has called to understand. Most people who will see the debate, will disagree with me from before this debate ever started, and with the nature of this debate, it is close to impossible to change their minds in such a short period of time if God does not first work in them. I pray all the best to my opponent, and everyone who sees this debate. Thank you.

May God's will be done,
Robert
Debate Round No. 4
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by AlwaysMoreThanYou 4 years ago
AlwaysMoreThanYou
'I do believe that the Word of God is the infallible Word of God.'

lol
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by MrCarroll 4 years ago
MrCarroll
DeadSpacerobthomp012095Tied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:31 
Reasons for voting decision: I think the lack of study on those last few issues hurts you pretty badly, Pro. More importantly, you didn't really show how these verses make sense contextually. Con, your arguments are incorrect, as far as I can see, but you present them well. Just be clearer on how the verses contradict each other instead of just throwing two verses side by side. And that rant on the Bible in r1 was completely false and you know it. And you never presented anything to back it up. Thus, conduct points to Pro. Not because you were rude in discussion, but because you just threw 30 unfounded arguments into the debate.