The Instigator
Harbinger
Pro (for)
Losing
6 Points
The Contender
Fruitytree
Con (against)
Winning
8 Points

The Biblical God and the God of the Qu'ran are not the same!

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Fruitytree
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/15/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,317 times Debate No: 34745
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (43)
Votes (3)

 

Harbinger

Pro

I would like to thank Fruitytree for deciding to debate this topic with me. We will be debating whether or not the God of the Bible is the same God of the Qu'ran. Anyone who accepts this without permission will automatically forfeit the debate.

Since this is the first round, it should only be used for acceptance. I think I will establish some rules, definitions, and round structure. If Fruitytree has any issues on rules, definitions, and structure, I have set, then she may post in the comment section to determine the changes and then Fruitytree may add those changes in her first round or I will change my structure here.

The Biblical God and the God of the Qu'ran are not the same!

The resolution may seem difficult because one mite say that the Bible has different Testaments and that the New is not the same as the Old. My contention is that Jesus Christ is in fact the same God of the Old and New Testament and I will attempt to establish this in my opening argument.

I will now set the rules.
1. Only the Qu'ran and KJV Bible are to be used. Original texts from both are valid.
2. There is to be no semantics used on wording. Only the proper use(ordinary) of each word is to be allowed. Interpretations of the message in each book are allowed.
3. No insulting each other or their religion. Only addressing the debate topic at hand should be discussed.

Definitions
1. Biblical God- God of the Old and New Testament Bible of the Christian religion.
2. Islamic God- God of the Qu'ran and Muslim religion.
3. Same- Identical; not different in anyway; unchanged.
4. Not- Definitely different.

Round structure
1. Acceptance
2. Opening arguments. Con can simply rebuttal.
3. New arguments and rebuttals.
4. Closing remarks and rebuttals. No new arguments introduced.


I hope my opponent accepts these terms and I look forward to a good debate. Again Fruitytree, if you want to discuss problems about this structure please post in comment section. Thank you and good luck.
Fruitytree

Con

I thank Pro for having instigated this debate that I accept along with the definitions.


We both have the BOP , I will have to prove that the God of the Quran is the same God who sent prophets Moses and Jesus and revealed to them Torah (OT) and the Gospel (NT), obviously I would have to show that Jesus- peace be upon him- is not the God of the bible, but his "Father" the one who sent him forth, is both the God of the bible and the God of the Qur'an.


Beside Qur'an and the Bible, I may use the authentic prophetic tradition (if necessary) for Hadith is inseparable part of islamic scriptures.


I now send it back to Pro to start his argument.
Debate Round No. 1
Harbinger

Pro

Thank you Fruitytree for accepting this debate. I agree with the additional terms she has included in her first round acceptance. With that said, let's move on to the argument.

My opponent has made her stance plain in her first round by saying that Jesus Christ is not a God but merely a messenger or prophet of the God called the Father. That the Biblical God the Father is the same God of the Qu'ran and the Bible. This is the meat of the argument and what I will focus on. I will show here that Jesus Christ is in fact the God in the Old Testament, there is a God the Father as well, and that the God described in the Qu'ran is quite different than the God of the New or Old Testament.

C1. My first contention is that Jesus is the God of the Old and New Testament. That the Father gave Him power and glory in the creation.

Let's look at what the New Testament says about Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:12, "..Thanks unto the Father, which hath made us..to be partakers...13 Who hath delivered..and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:14 In whom we have the forgiveness of sins:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth... all things were created by him, and for him:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning...19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;20 And...by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."

To explain here so we can fully understand, these verses are clearly describing Jesus Christ as the first born of all creation. Jesus Christ is the living Word of God and the fulfilling action of the spoken Word of God. We see that Jesus Christ the Son created all things in earth and in heaven for His own pleasure with the power of God the Father, Jesus Christ is that spoken Word.

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 The same was in the beginning with God.3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

We see here that my interpretation is even more verified by these verses. It is stating that Jesus Christ is the Word, the Word is with God the Father, and that makes the Word also God. That the Word created all things and made all things.

I am sure Fruitytree will contend that Abraham was before Jesus Christ as a prophet. Jesus claimed different as I have shown above and will show it further.

John 8:58, "58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
Mark 14:60, "And the high priest..61.. asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."
The Old Testament God made a similiar statement when He said to Moses:
Exodus 3:14, "And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you."

"I AM" is one of the Seven Names of God according to Jewish tradition. It is pretty clear that Jesus Christ was saying, “I am Israel’s God.” If Jesus Christ is Israel's God then He is the God talking throughout the Old Testament and clearly is not the God of Islam.
Genesis 1:1. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:"

The Hebrew word for God here is Elohim. By combining "EL" to "Ohim" it becomes distinct as a plural form from the root El, which can be used to mean Gods in plural. This gives credance for the doctrine of the trinity of, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity. We see here:
Matthew 28:19, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

1 John 5:7, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word(Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
I think this contention gives much reason to believe that Jesus Christ is the creator of man and the world. That He is the God of Israel through the power of the Father. The Father may be the chief of the Godhead but the Son is also of the Godhead and not just a prophet as claimed by the Qu'ran. I will now move on to contention two.
2. God of Qu'ran and Old Testament are different.
First we never see in the Bible that God causes pain or torment on His prophets when revealing His Word to them by Himself or through angels. In the Qu'ran Muhammad describes this very thing.

Quoting from the Hadith of Bukhari, 9.111: "The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good righteous... He never had a dream but that it came true like bright day light. He used to go in seclusion (the cave of) Hira where he used to worship(Allah Alone) continuously for many (days) nights...suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him in it and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read." (The Prophet added), "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, "I do not know how to read," whereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and asked me again to read, but again I replied, "I do not know how to read (or, what shall I read?)." Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me and then released me and said, "Read: In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists)." http://answering-islam.org...;

No where in the Bible do we here of any prophet or apostle being pressed to write or know God's Word. This is a major difference in revelations between the two. There are more experiences like in the Qu'ran for Muhammad that I may expand on in the next round.
The God of the Qu'ran is described as & The God of the Bible is described as:

(a.) Qu'ran "Allah loves not transgressors" (2:190)
Bible: Psalms 51:13 "Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee."
(b.)Bible: Monotheistic, Trinitarian, (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6-8; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14).
Qu'ran: Monotheistic (5:73; 112:1-4), denies the Trinity (5:73).
(c.) Bible: Worship on Sabbath (Exodus 20) then later on Sunday (Rom. 14:5-6; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2).
Qu'ran: Worship on Friday (62:9).
(d.) Bible: Miracles, numerous are recorded (1 Cor. 15:3-5, etc.).
Qu'ran: No Miracles recorded, except they claim the Qur'an is a miracle.
(e.) Bible: Makes numerous prophecies (Isaiah 53; Micah 5:2, etc.).
Qu'ran: Makes no prophecies.
(f.) Bible: Yahweh, the God of the Bible, knows us; He is knowable and approachable.
Qu'ran: Allah is not personal, knowable, or approachable. Of the 99 names for God in the Qur’an, Father is not one of them. In Islam, it is considered blasphemous to “presume” that one can know God or claim any sort of close, personal fellowship with Allah. He reveals his will, not himself.
(g.) Bible: Yahweh, the God of the Bible, loves all people. His love is not a response to our goodness, but in spite of our lack of goodness. Even though God hates sin, He loves the sinner and takes no pleasure in punishing him (Eze. 18:23). His love for all people is unconditional.
Qur’an: Allah loves those he chooses to love and hates those he chooses to hate. It appears his love or hate is in response to human behavior. “Allah loves not those that do wrong,” says the Qur’an (Surah 3:140), neither does he love “him who is treacherous, sinful” (Surah 4:107).


I think this is a good starting point here. I await Con's response.
Fruitytree

Con

I would like to thank Harbigner for his first argument, I will start my argument for Allah is YHWH, and Jesus-peace be upon him isn't God.


1- Who is the God ?


1-1- of Quran:

God is the creator of the heavens and the earth, the giver of life, the One with whom there is no partner.

Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then mounted He the Throne. He covereth the night with the day, which is in haste to follow it, and hath made the sun and the moon and the stars subservient by His command. His verily is all creation and commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds! (54) (O mankind!) Call upon your Lord humbly and in secret. Lo! He loveth not aggressors. (55) Quran/7


He is the one who sent all the previous prophets who called upon the people to his name and revealed to them :

Lo! Allah preferred Adam and Noah and the Family of Abraham and the Family of 'Imran above (all His) creatures. (33) They were descendants one of another. Allah is Hearer, Knower. (34) Quran/3

Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. (84) Quran/3


He is the one who has the most beautiful names:


He is Allah, than Whom there is no other God, the Knower of the Invisible and the Visible. He is the Beneficent, Merciful. (22) He is Allah, than Whom there is no other God, the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One, Peace, the Keeper of Faith, the Guardian, the Majestic, the Compeller, the Superb. Glorified be Allah from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him). (23) He is Allah, the Creator, the Shaper out of naught, the Fashioner. His are the most beautiful names. All that is in the heavens and the earth glorifieth Him, and He is the Mighty, the Wise. (24)


1-2 of the Torah:


In Genesis and without quoting all the concerned verses, it is Clear that God is the creator of the universe and all that is in it.


This verse particularly shows the unity of God, and that he has one image:


27And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (Genesis.1)


He is also the one who spoke to the prophets and revealed whetever he revealed to them, whether it be dorectly or through the Holy ghost.


Different names of God used in the Torah:

Elohim : always used with a singular verb when it refers to God, means "He is lord (singular) even over any of those things that he owns that are lordly (plural)."
El Shaddai: The Almighty
Shalom: Peace
Elyon: combination of Elohim and One used as : Supreme


http://www.agapebiblestudy.com...


1-3 of the Gospel:

17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Jesus here is speaking to the God who sent him, the One and only. He doesn't seem to be speaking to himself!


8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Well it is so clear that I don't think this needs an interpretation, God sent Jesus to the children of Israel (or whoever was there) as much as He sent the previous Messengers, in order to call the to the One true God, the same who sent John, Moses and Abraham.


In Conclusion : Moses, Jesus and Mohamed were sent from One same God the creator of all things, and they called people to worship him alone, as they were the men models to follow, the way people need to take in order to deserve eternal life.
Debate Round No. 2
Harbinger

Pro

Thank you Fruitytree for your opening argument. Con did not address any of my argument in her opening argument, so, I will further establish my argument this round and I will address her argument. I will not object to her use of the Qu'ran as none of her post establishes that Allah is the Biblical God at all.

1- Who is the God ?

"God is the creator of the heavens and the earth, the giver of life, the One with whom there is no partner."

In my opening round I established that Hebrew word Elohim just the trinity doctrine and the three persons in the Godhead.

Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:"

The Arabs are not Israel. In fact the Arab peoples where the Islam religion came are from was Ishmael and he was Hebrew(which is Jewish and Israeli) and Egyptian and never was a covenant made with him or his descendants.

Genesis 17:19, "And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him."
Genesis 17:21, "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac."
Exodus 2:24, "And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob."

We see these a few verses in which the Biblical God declares His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and his seed. None of Ishmael's seed was involved nor is he within the genealogy of Isaac's seed through Jacob.

"Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then mounted He the Throne. He covereth the night with the day, which is in haste to follow it, and hath made the sun and the moon and the stars subservient by His command. His verily is all creation and commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds! (O mankind!) Call upon your Lord humbly and in secret. Lo! He loveth not aggressors."

Of all the names of the God of the Qu'ran none are Father(as I have mentioned) nor the name of the God of the Bible. http://www.islamicity.com...

The God of the Bible gives Himself a specific name YHWH. The four Hebrew consonants that comprise YHWH are given in Scripture as God's holy Covenant name, and it is this form of His name that is the most frequently used in the Bible (about 6,800 times).
"He is the one who sent all the previous prophets who called upon the people to his name"

I agree the Biblical God drew all the prophets and apostles to Himself and all the followers of Him. Though the Biblical God and the God of the Qu'ran are not and have not been established as the same God.

"revealed to them"

Revelations have been revealed to many people who are not of God. They were revealed by demons or devils or what the Qu'ran calls Jinn.

"Family of 'Imran"

The Qur'an mentions Mary as the sister of Moses and Aaron and the daughter of Imran. The Qur'an indicates that Mary (Christ's mother) had a brother whose name was Aaron (chapter 19:28) and a father whose name is Imran (chapter 66:12). Their mother was called "the wife of Imran" (chapter 3:35) which eliminates any doubt that it confuses Mary, mother of Jesus, with Mary, sister of Aaron. Muslim scholars acknowledge what happened and they are confused and fail in their desperate attempts to justify this grave error. It is an obvious historical mistake because Mary had no brother named Aaron. http://www.answering-islam.org...

"We make no distinction between any of them(Moses-Jesus), and unto Him we have surrendered."

This is a grave error and mistake that Con must correct or justify.

"Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" Isaiah 48:16-17

We see the Biblical God calling Himself, "I am" again. This verse also establishes the Holy Ghost, Jesus the redeemer and savior and the Lord God who is the same.

"He is the one who has the most beautiful names"

None of the names are the Father or the Biblical God's name, YHWH. This is a grave part missing in the Qu'ran if these two are the same.

1-2 of the Torah:
"This verse particularly shows the unity of God, and that he has one image: 27And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (Genesis.1)"

This is a very telling point indeed. Let's go to the verse before this one. My opponent ignores the obvious:
Genesis 1:26, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:"

If God is one as Con claims, then who is the our in this verse? Why is God multiplying Himself? Because He is three in one and the trinity is verified here.

"He is also the one who spoke to the prophets and revealed whatever he revealed to them, whether it be directly or through the Holy ghost."

This is also a very telling statement by Con, where does the Holy Ghost come from?

John 14:26, "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name(Jesus), he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
Lamentations 1:16, "For these things I weep; mine eye, mine eye runneth down with water, because the comforter that should relieve my soul is far from me:"
We see that the Holy Ghost is the Comforter.

1 John 5:7, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
2 Corinthians 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen."


We see that the Holy Ghost bears record and so does Jesus Christ(the Word).

"Well it is so clear that I don't think this needs an interpretation, God sent Jesus to the children of Israel (or whoever was there) as much as He sent the previous Messengers."

My opponent makes grave errors here in the verses she provides, as she said it is clear, I will repost some key verses there:

"2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh(no other prophet had power over all flesh), that he should give eternal life (no other prophet could give eternal life)to as many as thou hast given him.3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ,(does not mention we must know any other but Christ) whom thou hast sent.5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.(We see Jesus Christ was around before the earth)6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word"
"Jesus here is speaking to the God who sent him, the One and only. He doesn't seem to be speaking to himself!"

Indeed, He was speaking to the Father but Con gravely misses the verses and statements made by Jesus. Jesus plainly states that the Father gave Him power over all flesh, salvation of men, and He was with the Father since the beginning.


"Moses, Jesus and Mohamed were sent from One same God the creator of all things, and they called people to worship him alone, as they were the men models to follow, the way people need to take in order to deserve eternal life."

This is grave errors. Where does Moses or any other prophet given the power over flesh or salvation of men? No where.


My opponent needs to address a lot of things in this debate and has a large obstacle to tackle this round. I will leave this where it falls and await her response. Thanks.
Fruitytree

Con

Thank you Harbinger,


I did not want to start rebutting your arguments before I even post my own.


1- Ilohim:


My apponent claims that this Hebrew word, that can both be used for : gods, or God is a plural and reffers to the trinity.


unfortunately for my opponent and although this is off-topic, when "Ilohim" is used for God, the following verb comes in its singular form, so to mean " He is lord (singular) even over any of those things that he owns that are lordly (plural)." which is a possible frm in the Hebrew language.


http://books.google.dz...


But yet , in Quran, Allah does use the plural "We" and "Us" with a plural verb, which is synonym to authority in arabic.


Like in these following verses: Quran/2

" He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide. (33) And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever. (34) And We said: O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and eat ye freely (of the fruits) thereof where ye will; but come not nigh this tree lest ye become wrong-doers. (35)"


And the plural for God is used in ocasions of authority according to scholarship interpretations.

http://www.islam101.com...


So I ask my opponent to place himself in the context of the original language, and not to be quick at judging.


If you want to know if God is one, or 3 in 1, just see how his prophets prayed him, in plural or singular ? they all prayed in singular, for they know his is one and only.



2-YHWH :


One of the recurrent questions that come is the name YHWH of Iloah or Allah, please read the following hadeeth:

It was narrated from Asma' bint Yazid that :

the Messenger of Allah (saas) said: "The Greatest Name of Allah is in these two Verses: And your Ilah (God) is One Ilah (God - Allah), La Ilaha Illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.' And at the beginning of Surah Al 'Imran." (Hasan)

http://sunnah.com...


Here is the beginning of Surah Al-Imran:

Alif. Lam. Mim. (1) Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. (2)


And it sounds like this: Alif, Laam, Meem, Allahu La Ilaha illa Huwa'el Hay'ul Qayoum.


The only name of God that reccurs in both verses is Huwah (He, Himself). So considering Arabic and Hebrew are cousins We accpet the absense of the "Ye " that usually means "The"


So the name YHWH was given to Muslims and is even made the greatest name of Allah.


And the Prophets refer to Allah by calling him Anta ( you) , and He calls himself Ana (I am) in severa verses in the Quran. I will chose just one as an example:

Allah! There is no God save Him (Huwa). His are the most beautiful names. (8) Hath there come unto thee the story of Moses? (9) When he saw a fire and said unto his folk: Wait! Lo! I see a fire afar off. Peradventure I may bring you a brand therefrom or may find guidance at the fire. (10) And when he reached it, he was called by name: O Moses! (11) Lo! I, even I, am (Ana) thy Lord, So take off thy shoes, for lo! thou art in the holy valley of Tuwa. (12)


I arabic it comes in this order: Lo! even I (Inni), I am (Ana).

3- The Father:


Allah didn't call himsef Father in Quran, and didn't call Muslims or any creature his children and the reasons are the deviation that occured with Christianity, so He refutes having any begoten sons or daughters including the Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary.



Quran/6: " He it is Who sendeth down water from the sky, and therewith We bring forth buds of every kind; We bring forth the green blade from which We bring forth the thick-clustered grain; and from the date-palm, from the pollen thereof, spring pendant bunches; and (We bring forth) gardens of grapes, and the olive and the pomegranate, alike and unlike. Look upon the fruit thereof, when they bear fruit, and upon its ripening. Lo! herein verily are portents for a people who believe. (99) Yet they ascribe as partners unto Him the jinn, although He did create them, and impute falsely, without knowledge, sons and daughters unto Him. Glorified be He and high exalted above (all) that they ascribe (unto Him). (100) The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child, when there is for Him no consort, when He created all things and is Aware of all things? (101) Such is Allah, your Lord. There is no God save Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He taketh care of all things. (102)"


Note that God is denying the specific meaning of "begoten" sons that many Christians went to beleive.



4- Mary's family:


The Quran clearly states Mary's father is "Imran", and there is nothing in the bible to counter this claim, except views contradicting one another, but an honest man who beleives in the bible will have to say: it isn't possible to know who the father of mary was. so not because of names resemblance do you assume it reffers to Moses father!!

http://en.wikipedia.org...

For the verse about Haroon, we arabs can call a person as brother of (a specific tribe) whether he is their true decendent or is he by adoption. and Mary was the "sister" of the tribe of Haroon by adoption, as she was raised in the home of Zachariah , and both Zachariah and his wife Elizabeth were from the descendents of Haroon, so calling her "sister of Haroon" is relationg her to the tribe of Haroon (to remind her of her responsibility towards the tribe) where she really was adopted and raised, although she wasn't descendent from.

Mughira b. Shu'ba reported:
When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read" O sister of Harun" (i. e. Hadrat Maryam) in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them.

http://sunnah.com...

I answered this although I see it is off topic too.


5-Power over flesh !


Prophets get Power over the flesh that God gives them, and those who don't beleive the prophets have gone astray, and many generations were distroyed for not following the Propets, for only if they beleived and followed the prophets woud they have been saved !! so Jesus is no different, He is the way like the previous prophets were the way. He is the life 'eternal life' like previous prophets were, once God send the messengers, te people become guilty if they choose not to follow the Prophets.


Jesus is different by his special mission, great Miracles from God, his birth, and his ascention and return, but all this is the Work of his God, not his own.


Conclusion:


I made it enough clear in my first argument that the God defined in the Quran is the same God defined in the bible, he is the God of Moses and Jesus peace be upon them, the creator of the universe, and this is enough to identify him.


Now the refutations of my oponnent are only based on semantics and misunderstanding of original languages.


And so far he didn't show how can the God of the Bible be different from the God of Quran


The issue with the first verses of the book of John is that the author is the one speking, he isn't an apostel, nor did he see Jesus, for he never said "we" or 'I" except by the last chapter where he acknowledged where he got his Gospel from.


And Paul isn't even one of the 12, nor did he have the testimony of Jesus for being upon the right path! so I don't know why I should consider his writings ?!



Debate Round No. 3
Harbinger

Pro

Harbinger forfeited this round.
Fruitytree

Con

As my opponent forfeited this round I will do the same for fairness.



Please vote impartially.
Debate Round No. 4
43 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Chase200mph 3 years ago
Chase200mph
That's because the one true god existed as many goods before these religion existed. Their debate was never a debate however, it was only a string of conditional statements. debate requires the examination evidence and there is no such evidence... their is some evidence the god Yahweh need human sacrifices in his youth....but that's is a different story all together.
Posted by johnlubba 3 years ago
johnlubba
Reasons for voting decision:

Excellent debate, and shame it never ended with a 4th round from harbinger, I think both debaters were explosive, Harbinger nearly convinced me that Jesus is one with the trinity as believed in Christianity, and portrayed excellent arguements from a Christian perspective, only the debate was about if the Christian God was the same as the God of the Quaran, Not if Jesus is the same God as the Bible, Although if he was, then the God of the Quaran can not be the same God, Known as Father the Bible, because the Quaran God, does not call himself Father but in fact denies idea. So there is a discrepancy here. They can not be the same God. But Fruitytreee did provide arguments for other names for the Christian God and the God of the Quaran, Such as He Himself, And I Am, both are using the same name. So although Allah doesn't call himself Father He does use the other names of the Christian God. Fruity tree provided a strong fourth round with more similarities in the Bible with the Quaran, Such as the Adam and Eve account, due to Harbinger's forfeit, and no response, I award arguments to Con. Also some of the debate was of topic.
Posted by Chase200mph 3 years ago
Chase200mph
1000 years before the story of Jesus came about"not that you will ever be allowed to see it again. Beyond that the story is told in much older religions as Horus the son of RA, the son of Jupiter and so on. The story of Jesus is pagan of origin and predates written history.

Regardless of someone's religions status you cannot deny that facts are facts.

Answer: That"s what religion is, the denying of the facts.
Posted by Chase200mph 3 years ago
Chase200mph
effimero89 2 hours ago

effimero89
@Chase200mph You're on the right path but you are going about it all wrong. First off, how could a "self proclaimed illiterate Hebrew slave" WRITE about anything if he or she was illiterate??

Answer: Exactly, when you stop "begging the question that Jesus ever lived" and the argument Jesus lived is an argument from ignorance because there are no historical accounts, it becomes ridiculous to believe that self-proclaimed illiterate Hebrews wrote anything let alone in Greek. But this doesn"t stop the foolish in believing that these completely anonymous apostles wrote scriptures that make up the New Testament".let alone having wrote them more than a generation "after" the supposed event of Jesus"s crucifixion.

Second Jesus was a real person, not many people argues this mainly due to the fact of the writers during his time.

Answer: You are again completely wrong as NO contemporary accounts of Jesus have ever appeared anywhere at any time. The fact is that most people do argue that Jesus never was.

Its not like some slaves just started imagining up a savior and everyone all the sudden decided to listen to slaves, that doesn't make any sense..

Answer: No, it"s like a Roman ruler named Constantine made up the bible via the priests and governors he placed into office. Until that time no-one ever heard of Jesus and creating or using a religion to gain control in a Roman providence was common practice.

Also the "theory" about Jesus being identical to any pagan was started by people who typically have a stone to grind with Christianity and are completely wrong.

Answer: Again, when all what would have been considered Jews were practicing polytheism, the created the story about the son of one god who was born of a virgin/young girl and who took all man"s sins through being sacrificed"the son of this god"s name was Gabriel. Ring a bell? This story found on the now hidden stone tablet is dated a 1000 years before the
Posted by effimero89 3 years ago
effimero89
@Chase200mph You're on the right path but you are going about it all wrong. First off, how could a "self proclaimed illiterate Hebrew slave" WRITE about anything if he or she was illiterate?? Second Jesus was a real person, not many people argues this mainly due to the fact of the writers during his time. Its not like some slaves just started imagining up a savior and everyone all the sudden decided to listen to slaves, that doesn't make any sense..

Also the "theory" about Jesus being identical to any pagan was started by people who typically have a stone to grind with Christianity and are completely wrong.

Regardless of someone's religions status you cannot deny that facts are facts.
Posted by Chase200mph 3 years ago
Chase200mph
Answer: I guess you cannot care about what you couldn't understand in the first place. The only question remaining is why are you in a debate forum then, we all know, it's a rhetorical question.
Posted by Harbinger 3 years ago
Harbinger
@Chase, we do not care about your secular opinion, quite honestly.
Posted by Chase200mph 3 years ago
Chase200mph
Your Savior is Pagan, the story is a stupider version of that which is Pagan, the story of the cross is Pagan, the one true god (god's really) with many names are all pervious pagan Jewish names because Jews were Pagan/poltheists. Think about it, some anonymous self proclaimed illiterate Hebrew slaves wrote about Jesus generations after the fact and no-one heard of Jesus until then....it's not rocket science!

PS, the O/T sources never had a name God, only god's in the plural and if memory serves, the one called Yahweh had a taste for human sacrifice and or blood.
Posted by Chase200mph 3 years ago
Chase200mph
that was history, the problem here is that you are confused and believe that the Bible can be used as a history book.this is not only nonsense, it's the worst type of circular abstract thinking there is.
Posted by Harbinger 3 years ago
Harbinger
@Fruity, that is it though Fruity, I know God's will for me. Maybe not in full but I have a direction. His Word, plain and simple. Be a vessel for Him to speak that Word. You are right we need to find the truth. I ask you, how much investigation have you done in your truth? How investigation have you done into Islam and its past? Me, I do endless search not just in my own faith but yours, others, many. I want to know the truth of them all. I want to know the truth of my own. Unlike the guy Chase here, he has hardened his heart and mind to not know any thing that is true but instead follows men and what they tell him to think and then he spews it people who in fact just know better and gets angry because they ignore him. We should all see real knowledge and true about everything we believe.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by leonardlewis4 3 years ago
leonardlewis4
HarbingerFruitytreeTied
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Total points awarded:51 
Reasons for voting decision: - Conduct to Con because Pro forfeited the final round and Con gracefully followed. - Pro provided undeniable proof that the God of the Bible and Allah of the Qu'ran are two completely different characters--claims of the Qu'ran notwithstanding. Con helped Pro in this regard by listing Allah's attributes that are inconsistent with the God of the Bible. Pro listed many attributes unique to the God of the Bible while pointing out the attributes unique to Allah of the Qu'ran. - Pro used the most reliable sources because the reliability of the Bible has been proven to far-exceed that of the Qu'ran on many levels.
Vote Placed by dj21 3 years ago
dj21
HarbingerFruitytreeTied
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Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: Having read both (a longtime Christian), I think the Qur'an makes quite clear it is the same YHWH of Jewish and Christian tradition. Con establishes that. Pro made the Christian argument very well, but seldom drew from Muslim doctrine. Con was similarly one -sided, but was fortunate to be on (imho) the correct side of the argument. Con did touch on the difference between the difference between what the Bible says and Christian doctrine, but could have more agressively gone after the Platonic additions that form the core of modern Christian theology.
Vote Placed by johnlubba 3 years ago
johnlubba
HarbingerFruitytreeTied
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Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments