The Instigator
polka-dots323
Con (against)
Losing
46 Points
The Contender
Kleptin
Pro (for)
Winning
72 Points

The Big Bang and evolution are real and have occured.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/10/2008 Category: Science
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,609 times Debate No: 2538
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (29)
Votes (31)

 

polka-dots323

Con

I am obviously a religiouss person. I don't believe in evolution and the Big Bang didn't occur. I know thos because where did the stuff to create the atom that formed the universe come from??? Where did it start? I am not debating God's existance, for I know it is real and true. I am debating against these 2 theories and their lack of sense and evidence.
Kleptin

Pro

First and foremost, I would like to thank my opponent for issuing this challenge. Though I'll first state that I will not argue the issue precisely.

I will argue that with our current scientific evidence, it is reasonable to assume that the theory of evolution is valid, and that there is no evidence detailing that the universe came about because of a willful, intelligent force.

We're all sick of these types of debates. I'm sure of it. But it's my first God debate on this particular site so please bear with me. I greatly apologize.

"I am obviously a religiouss person. I don't believe in evolution and the Big Bang didn't occur. I know thos because where did the stuff to create the atom that formed the universe come from??? Where did it start?"

Philosophically speaking, we can answer this question by asking "Where did God come from? Where did God start?"

The answer is simple. Just as how the theists say that God always was, we can say that the atoms always were. Or better yet, we can say that all the atoms came from God, and God initiated the Big Bang and set the whole universe in motion, the left (deism).

My opponent has declared that he does not believe in evolution, or the big bang, and that he knows God exists.

I now ask him the following:

Why do you not believe in evolution? If you do not believe in evolution, how can you explain our existence and speciation? Please answer in detail.

Why do you not believe in the big bang? If you do not believe in the big bang, how do you explain the presence of matter in the universe? Please answer in detail.

Why do you believe in God? Do you have empirical evidence for God? Do you believe in God purely because of faith or do you have reasons? What attributes does God have, and how do you know he has all those attributes?

Answer all my questions, and I shall answer all of yours.
Debate Round No. 1
polka-dots323

Con

Thank you for accepting this debate. :)

"I will argue that with our current scientific evidence, it is reasonable to assume that the theory of evolution is valid, and that there is no evidence detailing that the universe came about because of a willful, intelligent force."

Can you give any proof that the Big Bang theory is true? Also, I have a few questions…

1. If life "evolved" on Earth to fit Earth's conditions, why hasn't life "evolved" on the moon or the Sun?

2. How do you explain life by itself? Life and death seem too special and miraculous to have just occured.

3. How did humans evolve from apes? Did we just stop growing hair in some places and change the shape of our bodies all of a sudden?

4. How do animals evolve? They can't evolve by choice. Does nature suddenly decide that one animal should change to fit its surroundings?

"Philosophically speaking, we can answer this question by asking "Where did God come from? Where did God start?""

Well, to directly answer your question, God has been here forever. He is eternal. We are used to things here on Earth having a begning and an end. It's so much for the human mind to comprhend. God didn't come from a certain place or "start." Now, I would like you to answer my question about where the universe started and how it formed. People who believe in the Bing Bang are usually atheists. Afterall, this is a debate mainly about the Big Bang and evolution.

"Why do you not believe in evolution? If you do not believe in evolution, how can you explain our existence and speciation? Please answer in detail."

I do not believe in evolution because in the book of Genesis in the Bible it states that God created people in His image. It does not state that he created organisms that evolved into humans. He created us with purpose of creating us. I can explain our existence by reading the book of Genesis. God created humans. It's as simple as that.

And how can you explain our existence? In detail please.

"Why do you not believe in the big bang? If you do not believe in the big bang, how do you explain the presence of matter in the universe? Please answer in detail."

I do not believe in the Big Bang because again, in Genesis, it says that God created the heavens and the earth. It does not state that God created a tiny atom that exploded and created space.

How exactly did the atim create space? Or did it?

"Why do you believe in God? Do you have empirical evidence for God? Do you believe in God purely because of faith or do you have reasons? What attributes does God have, and how do you know he has all those attributes?"

I believe in God becuase I read the Bible and I've heard people talk about him and his miracles and how He's affected their lives. How do you explain the everyday miracles of life without God? After doing this, I started to pray, and I found that nothing is impossible with God. So, I have not actually seen God, but I know He's here. And what exactly do you mean by attributes? Are you talking about His qualities, or how He's realted to us? The bible tells the whole truth, and I believe what it says. How could everybody who took part in writing the bible had been lying? How could all those witnesses that saw Jesus, the Messiah, on Earth, were lying and didn't see the miracles He caused. God doesn't need proof to exist-it even states so in the Bible. All I need is faith to believe in God. Have you seen everything to know its real? The same idea applies for God.

I hope that you can directly answer my questions about evolution and the Big Bang. Also, I really encourage you to just open up a Bible and start reading. This is not related to the debate, but just something that wouldn't hurt. :)
Kleptin

Pro

"Can you give any proof that the Big Bang theory is true?"

I believe scientists have detected trace amounts of energy where there should be none in space, and mapped out such that the energy came from one source and one direction. Overall, I choose not to debate on the big bang.

"Also, I have a few questions…"

Undoubtedly

"1. If life "evolved" on Earth to fit Earth's conditions, why hasn't life "evolved" on the moon or the Sun?"

This is a very common theistic question. The reason why this question never seems to be resolved is simple. Evolutionists think differently from those who don't understand evolution, and those who don't tend to make assumptions.

Take for example, the question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" Obviously there are hidden assumptions in this question. The same goes for why life hasn't evolved elsewhere. Theists believe that life is sacred and mystical, something inherently good to the universe. Scientifically speaking, life is just a specific biochemical process. There was nothing to guide life to forming, not even natural selection. Maybe it would help to think of life as "Chemical process 77728692"

So why doesn't 77728692 occur on the sun or the moon? Same reason why there is no sound in space, or why gravity exists. The physical and chemical composition of the moon or sun makes it chemically impossible to carry out 77728692. It can carry out an infinite number of other processes from chemical process 00000001 to chemical process 99999999 for example.

"2. How do you explain life by itself? Life and death seem too special and miraculous to have just occurred."

That's usually where theists and scientists go at odds. If you have never really gotten a good answer in other debates before, this is probably why.

Humans are fascinated by love, intelligence, life, and death, because for hundreds and thousands of years, they could not explain it. Tribes in Africa may worship those with lighters, mirrors, and scissors. However, we understand how these things work, and are not impressed. Similarly, we as a human species place too much unfounded awe and wonder on life and death. It carries over as part of our culture.

If you sat down with a Zen master and really, REALLY thought about it, you would realize that you have no reason to see life or death as miraculous. In that case, Life is just a name for some chemical process that indeed happened at random. It's just that this random thing happens to be very important to us. Imagine this:

A radioactive spider bit Peter Parker and he became spiderman. Spiderman is a very, VERY important superhero to the citizens of New York city because he fights crime, but this event happened purely at random.

The fact that something is random does not mean it is not important.

"3. How did humans evolve from apes? Did we just stop growing hair in some places and change the shape of our bodies all of a sudden?"
4. How do animals evolve? They can't evolve by choice. Does nature suddenly decide that one animal should change to fit its surroundings?"

See, this is a very good question. Many people view evolution to be a sudden change in an individual while they are alive. Sort of like the game Pokemon. But that's not quite how evolution works.

When DNA replicates, sometimes it mutates to cause changes. Some changes are good, some bad, some neutral. Some of the only have effect when combined with other changes.

The problem is that a lot of people have trouble grasping the concept of time beyond 100 years. We're impatient people, we want to see results now. Most people don't understand evolution because they don't understand time.

Humans did not evolve over a period of 100 years. Or even 1000 years. Or even 10000 years, which is beyond all recorded history. The entire history of mankind as we know is only about 10,000 years. MULTIPLY THAT BY TEN.

That's all human history multiplied by 10. That's a lot of time. Think about it. That's enough time to live from the beginning of what we know about human culture all the way to today.

Guess what? That's not enough.

NOW MULTIPLY THAT BY 10 AGAIN.

Now you can live through human history ONE HUNDRED TIMES.

But guess what? That's still not enough.

MULTIPLY IT BY FIVE AGAIN.

You can live through all recorded human history FIVE HUNDRED TIMES. From the times of cavemen all the way to today.

Human evolution took place over the span of five million years.

During that time, these little mutations kept on building up. Genes changed and expressed different things. Some included new abilities that allowed them to pass on those new genes faster, because they could mate better. Eventually, this kept on going up until today.

(I'm running out of characters so I had to keep it short)

"Well, to directly answer your question, God has been here forever."

I wasn't really asking you a question, because I knew the answer already. In fact, I even answered my own question in my first post. The thought is this: If you can use the excuse that God always was, why can't I use the excuse that atoms always were?

"I do not believe in evolution because in the book of Genesis"
"I do not believe in the Big Bang because again, in Genesis"
"I believe in God becuase I read the Bible"
"The bible tells the whole truth, and I believe what it says."
"God doesn't need proof to exist-it even states so in the Bible."

So the bible is the only evidence you have. I'll address this later.

"How could everybody who took part in writing the bible had been lying?"
How could all those witnesses that saw Jesus, the Messiah, on Earth, were lying and didn't see the miracles He caused."

"Also, I really encourage you to just open up a Bible and start reading. This is not related to the debate, but just something that wouldn't hurt. :)"

You would be surprised. I've studied Genesis and the Gospels with much more fervor than you probably did. And through much sharper eyes. Literary analysis can be performed on great classical books. Some people read them for the stories. The good readers understand symbolism and metaphorical language. This, I applied to the bible. I've taken three courses in Catholic Theology, which requires us to study the Gospels, and I've read many articles explaining controversies and the history of the Church.

Trust me when I say that I know what I'm talking about.

I'd like to bring this discussion back to the Bible.

Many theists like a literal interpretation of the Bible. But I have a little something to tell you.

Did you ever play the game telephone, where a message is given to one person, whispered around a circle, and it comes back all funny? Same thing with the bible. The voice of God can simply not be heard by humans. The acts of God simply cannot be understood by humans. Even if God tries to communicate with us, we would not be able to understand because God does not vibrates sound waves. God doesn't have a human mouth or human vocal chords, or a human brain. God is so far beyond us, that we insult God by assuming that God is even a LITTLE bit similar to human beings.

The Bible was written by humans who THINK they know God, but they really don't. In fact, many stories of the bible were borrowed from other cultures at the time. Many styles of writing in the Bible can be traced to the writing styles of authors from that time.

There is too much human intervention in the Bible for it to be the true voice of God. If God did exist, God would be NOTHING like what the Bible says. Humans would simply not be able to understand God because God is TOO FAR BEYOND HUMANS.

(I'm really running out of characters so if I missed anything, I'll get to it next time)
Debate Round No. 2
polka-dots323

Con

polka-dots323 forfeited this round.
Kleptin

Pro

I'm guessing my opponent had all his questions answered in depth. I hope he now understands the truth of evolution and may be willing to re-examine his beliefs in favor of scientific truth.
Debate Round No. 3
29 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by brittwaller 8 years ago
brittwaller
How does someoone who forfeits win?

^head explodes^
Posted by Kleptin 9 years ago
Kleptin
I'm not really satisfied with this debate x.x my opponent made an opening in Post 1, asked a lot of questions in Post 2, then sort of forfeited the last round.

I went through quite a bit of time to answer each and every single one of those questions in good detail.

I'd like some feedback o.o
Posted by polka-dots323 9 years ago
polka-dots323
I totally agree with Megan. :)
Posted by JackBauerPower 9 years ago
JackBauerPower
Edit* Big BANG theory................
Posted by JackBauerPower 9 years ago
JackBauerPower
First i did not refer to newtons law of gravity, i was referring to the theory of gravitation, as i clearly said in my comment. You have jumped to the wrong conclusion there. I really dont want to have a debate as to the nature/validity of the definitions on wikipedia. I was only trying to give you a link to something that might illustrate to you that there is an overwhelming amount of data supporting a theory, even ones such as the big band theory. Again, not to be repeatative or come off as harsh, but you seem to have missed the point entirely.
Posted by meganlg43 9 years ago
meganlg43
JackBauerPower i think everyone would appricieate if you did a little research before you try to prove us wrong. You said there was a "theory" of gravity, you're wrong, it's the LAW of gravity-- meaning it IS in fact true. there's theorys and laws for a reason, because they are different! wikipedia's explantaion of big bang THEORY[guess what happend]only would define what people believe happend,not waht actually did happen. i'm sure wikipedia could define "santa claus' but does that make him real? no. And if you would like to go that the way that it does--i'm sure they define creationism too, so maybe you should read up on that.
Posted by polka-dots323 9 years ago
polka-dots323
I did not say that everyone agreed the big bang theory was disproved. I just stated that many scientists have disproved it. By this I mean they have found small errors in the theory. But, the whole theory itself has not been disproved. Sorry for the confusion. Challenge me to a debate if you believe I am wrong.

Kleptin: My whole thesis staement was not a conjunction. Only the word "and." I do not see why you pointed that out...
Posted by JackBauerPower 9 years ago
JackBauerPower
No, the big bang has not been disproved, otherwise it would not still be considered theory. I never stated that because something was theory that it was fact, i simply am saying that calling something "just" a theory is completely wrong. It serves as the best model we have to date using all of the data we have until something else comes along that is able to prove it wrong. However nothing has, i am not necessarily talking about only the big bang theory but the nature of theories themselves.
Posted by Kleptin 9 years ago
Kleptin
Your thesis was a conjunction. Big Bang *And* evolution.
Posted by polka-dots323 9 years ago
polka-dots323
Nobody was there when the big bang supposedly occurred. therefore, we have Also, the big bang has been disproved by many scientists. You must have not "made the connection" that just because its a theory doesn't mean its real. Challenge me to a debate if you think I am wrong.
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