The Book of Revelation was not Inspired or Created By the Judeo Christian God
Debate Rounds (3)
It is apocryphal based on the Pagan beliefs it draws its visions from.
Proof its Aprocryphal
Numerology and Astrology both practices which has a consensus origin among historians with Ancient Babylon. Divination is what the ancients called the practice of using Numerology or Astrology to foretell future events and find hidden knowledge of God. We still define divination the same today.
Divination: : the art or practice that seeks to foresee or foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge usually by the interpretation of omens or by the aid of supernatural powers
The bible clearly condemns divination at De 18:10 -
10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,
Revelation deals most with the destruction of Babylon the great and destroying god's adversary Satan. In the same breath it uses Babylon's own belief system to predict God's return and the tools in which god will use upon his return to destroy Babylon. Revelation use of Numerology and Astrology breaks the laws written at De 18:10 and therefore the Judeo Christian God could not have written nor inspired it to be written. Revelation talks about removing god's adversary Satan but Deuteronomy tells why God would remove kingdoms because they practiced divination at De 18:12
12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.
Evidence of Numerology being used in Revalation abounds. Bible scholars excuse Numerology in the bible saying the numbers are symbolic and therefore do not fall under the realm of mysticism. Symbolism though still falls under the umbrella of divination. This point is proved by the Catholic encyclopedias response to Numerology in the bible.
Catholic Encyclopedias take on numbers.
Suffice it to note here that although the Fathers repeatedly condemned the magical use of numbers which had descended from Babylonian sources to the Pythagoreans and Gnostics of their times, and although they denounced any system of their philosophy which rested upon an exclusively numerical basis, still they almost unanimously regarded the numbers of Holy Writ as full of mystical meaning, and they considered the interpretation of these mystical meanings as an important branch of exegesis.
Simply put they continued to preach it having divine origin despite knowing it was of Apocryphal origin. Although the Catholic church used the Book of revelation The Eastern Orthodox church doesn't include it in its Divine Liturgy. Protestants use it to keep the sheep in the field afraid of the big bad wolves of revelation.
The number of instances Numerology is used in revelation are far to many for the 5,000 characters I have remaining so we'll just go through a few.
666 - This is undeniably, without a doubt numerology even acknowledged by the author. He states that this is a man's name 666. That is the very meaning of divination using numbers to discover a deeper knowledge. In fact the Babylonish system was design with 1 - 36 numbers for their god. 1 number for each god. Adding 1 + 2+ 3+ 4+ 5+6 to + 36 = 666 which was the number for the SUN god.
24 Elders around the Throne of God -
7 congregations - 7 planets of Astrology
Astrology is a lot easier to prove as to a correlation. Meaning X example found in the bible matches X example found in Astrology.
4 Living Creatures = The very term living creature is a definition of a word we could translate into modern english that is readily used today, Zodiac. In fact Bull, Man, lion, Eagle. Were the 4 axis points of the ancient zodiac.
4 horseman of the apocalypse = People who follow the zodiac for compatible partners should easily identify who the 4 horseman are.
Lion matches Sagitarius = Man seated on a white horse with bow (Sagatarius Bow Horse)
Bull matches Virgo = Man taking peace from the world with(In old star maps the goddess represented in Virgo is depicted as Astrea, Goddess of Justice. She is depicted holding a sword in one hand, scales in the other.)
Man Matches Libra = Thus able to take away the scales (Libra has the scales)
Eagle(Scorpio) matches Pisces = The food shortage and pisces also represents death since it is the last month in the zodiac.
God is to return to the middle of the Zodiac. Babylons belief was when the Zodiac was first created the Serpent was placed in the middle of the Zodiac with his minions. Revelation 4:6
The woman was described as having 12 stars and the sun and the moon. This is without a shadow of a doubt the goddess Virgo. Rev 12:1
The Earth comes to the pregnant woman's rescue. Which is what Ishtar does with the God Tammuz when she comes to his rescue Rev 12:15-17 (Ishtar is the babylonian name for Virgo)
The Serpent which bruises Virgo in her heel in Genesis and Tortures her now (The same serpent that sits in the middle of the Zodiac that god removes) has multiple heads just like the Hydra Rev. 12:3,4. And for a bonus in the Zodiac as the snake in the middle works its way around it bites the foot of Virgo or she Bruises him in the head.
I could continue but their are only so many characters remaining on the internet.
All of this proves that it was not of divine origin of a Hebrew god from which Revelation was written but it was Babylon. In fact my belief is the author of Revelation was actually piecing together the apocryphal beliefs scattered through out the bible into one concentrated tell all. In a writing style that would force the knowledgeable reader to question the origin of beliefs in the bible in their entirety. That is why even other citations in the bible in which Revelation draws its words from are in themselves apocryphal. If they were not it would be as god committed Genocide against people unjustly because he used those same tools.
My beliefs have some precedence in the immediate history following the publication of the book of Revelation. Many bible scholars and early church leaders assigned Cerinthus as the writer of Revelation. Many of the Pagan beliefs such as Christmas, Easter, etc can find their origins justified in Revelation. The god who killed Canaanites and establish the Jewish religion would be a hypocrite to adopt the same tools. Many protestants teach against the catholic churches teachings based on the fact they are based upon Pagan beliefs. They then turn around and use Revelation as the damnation prophecy that will be fulfilled on all people not approved by God. How can the God that wrote those words in Deuteronomy be justified in his actions if he uses the same tools as the God's of Babylon. Either god is unjust or Revelation is not inspired by God. I believe revelation is not inspired by God.
*NOTE - BOP is on pro to prove that The Book of Revelation is not from the Judeo-christian God.
My opponent opens with this statement :
"My debate will center around it is apocryphal based on Pagan beliefs it draws its visions from."
Such and argument requires a profoundly unique set of evidence that proves beyond any reasonable doubt that The Book of Revelation is based on pagan beliefs that is draws its visions from. Let us investigate my opponents arguments to see whether he fulfills this heavy burden of proof .
1- PROOF IT IS APOCRYPHAL
I maintain no disagreement with what my opponent puts forward until he says; "In the same breath it uses Babylon's own belief system to predict God's return and the tools in which god will use upon his return to destroy Babylon. Revelation's use of Numerology and Astrology breaks the laws written in De 18:10 and therefore the Judeo-Christian God could not have written nor inspired it to be written."
To accuse the book in question of using divination is to directly contradict the internal contents (passages) of the book. The Book of Revelation itself condemns ALL FORMS of magic and sorcery (this includes divination) :
"Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts..." (Revelation 22:15)
"The light of the lamp will never shine in you again. The voice of the bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again. Your merchants were the world's great men. By your magic spell all the nations were led astray." (Revelation 18:23)
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts... their place is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur." (Revelation 21:8)
See also Revelation 9:21
Now what is Numerology exactly? Here is the definition :
The study of the occultic significance of numbers
My opponent then begins to present his case by making an interesting assertion :
"Bible scholars excuse Numerology in the bible by saying the numbers are symbolic and therefore do not fall under the realm of mysticism. Symbolism though still falls under the umbrella of divination."
The major flaw of this argument is that simply because numbers in the book are of a mystical or symbolic nature, it does not mean that they are occultic in significance. Bear in mind that numerology is the study of not just any significance, but particularly and exclusively the occultic significance of numbers. Hence if the numerical values in The Book of Revelation do not comprise of any form of symbolism or mysticism that pertains to occultic significance, the book is, in effect, free of numerology.
Through an understanding of the definition of numerology and the numbers represented in The Book of Revelation, my opponent need to prove 3 things in order for his case to be true :
 The book affirms the use of numerology.
 The numbers in the book have an occultic significance.
 The book itself calls for the use of numerology to interpret the connotations of the numerical values present in the book.
Premise  has already been proven false as The Book of Revelation in, chapters 9:21,18:23,21:8 and 22:15, explicitly condemns all forms of magic arts (divination, contact of familiar spirits, witchcraft etc). As such is the stance on divination, The Book of Revelation is in complete accordance with Deuteronomy 18:9-12 and thus, is in agreement with the scriptural passages revealed by the Judeo-Christian God concerning magic arts. This is one proof of the inspiration of Revelation by the Judeo-Christian God.
My opponent provides this to support his case :
"Banylonish system was design with 1-36 numbers for their god. 1 number for each god. Adding 1+2+3+4+5+6 to +36 = 666 which is the number of the SUN god."
Despite the fact that my opponent speaks truth concerning the Babylonian numerical system. He disappointingly fails to mention that hebraic and greek numerological systems also calculate 666 to other figures in history. In fact numerous attempts have been made to decode the 666 reference throughout history. Each attempt reaching a different outcome. Here are some of the results that the various numerological schools of thought yielded concerning 666 :
Nero, Sun God, Ronald Reagan, Mohamet , the Pope, Lateinos (language of the beast's kingdom), Titus, Vespasian, Simon Gorias, Luther, Napoleon etc
e.g. Nero's name in Greek (Kaiser Neron) is represented in greek and Latin numerology as so :
It is evident that Nero nor the other acclaimed figures were the Anti-christ (beast) ,and thus 666 bears no reference to them. This is the reason why numerology fails in interpreting Revelation 13:18.
This is also proves premise  false as the occultic interpretation yielded results that have proven to be found wanting.
The verse itself does not call for numerology but for WISDOM (one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit of the Judeo-Christian God) thus also falsifying premise  :
"This calls for WISDOM. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666." (Revelation 13:18)
Notice that the verse also never states anywhere that the number stands for a mans name, thus dismissing numerology as a means to calculate the number. The verse simply calls for wisdom and wisdom alone.
My opponent proceeds to provide this to support his case :
"24 Elders around the throne of God -
7 congregations - 7 planets of Astrology
There are two problems with those arguments
(1) Three of the listed quotes (24 elders, 144000 and the 7 lampstands) contain no pagan parallel in my opponents accusation. He provides no parallel to prove their numerological pagan influence. Rather he just simply lists them. These 3 quotes thus prove to hold no water and are ,in essence, futile to his case. They are really pointless to the debate thus far.
(2) The only listed 'quote' (7 congregations) with a pagan parallel is correlated to the 7 planets of Astrology. The problem with this accusation is that no where in The Book of Revelation is there a mention of '7 congregations'. The only possible relation that the 7 congregations have to The Book of Revelation is the 7 churches mentioned in Revelation chapter 2. Even if this were the case, my opponent provides not a single scrap of evidence to support their alleged correlation to the 7 astrological planets.
2- PROOF OF ASTROLOGY
What is astrology? Here is the definition of astrology :
The divination of the supposed influences of the stars and planets on human affairs and terrestrial events by their positions and aspects.
Let us proceed to examine the claims my opponent makes. He begins with :
"4 living creatures = The very term 'living creature' is a definition of a word we could translate as, zodiac."
In fact the correct translation of the greek (zoon) should be 'living things'. Also the greek word zodiakos means "the circle of animals - referring to all living creatures, not just four as in Revelation 4:6. For my opponents case to be true, he need to prove how the 4 living creatures as described in The Book of Revelation relate to not just four animals, but to the WHOLE zodiac or else my opponents argument is one of opinion and is simply based on opinionated nitpicking. What is also detrimental to the whole paragraph of the 4 four living creatures and their alleged pagan inspiration, is that NO EVIDENCE in general is supplied to support ANY of my opponents claims.
He proceeds to say :
"The woman was described as having 12 stars and the sun and the moon. This is without a shadow of a doubt the goddess Virgo. Rev 12:1. The earth comes to the pregnant woman's rescue..."
Response to the whole paragraph (see my opponents full paragraph) :
Nothing could be further from the truth! This is totally incorrect. Revelation chapter 12 tells the more mystical version of two stories in christianity and the bible. The first being the war in heaven and the fall of Satan. The dragon (identified as Satan in Rev 12:9) swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them down to earth. The stars represent the third of angels (Rev 12:9) that fell with Satan after their failed rebellion in heaven.
The second story is of the nativity of Jesus and his mother Mary. The dragon (Satan) attempts to kill the women(Mary) and her baby(Jesus). This is an indisputable reference to Mary and Jesus, her child. Herod the King of Israel ordered the slaughter of all children of 2 years and younger(Matthew 2:18, Rev 12:4). Mary then flees to Egypt (the place in the desert as in Rev 12:14) for 1260 days/ 3 and a half years (Matthew 2:13-14 and Rev 12:6). Nowhere in Revelation chapter 12 is the woman (Mary) ever injured in her heel as Virgo is in the pagan story my opponent provides. Further the child in the story is meant to be a king who will rule over all the nations with an iron-scepter (Rev 12:5). This is without a doubt a direct reference to Jesus who is the Jewish messiah who will rule over all the nations with an iron scepter (Rev 19:15).
For more info ---� http://www.tedmontgomery.com...
Consequently, as known my opponent holds the BOP. He has however failed to fulfill the burden of proof as not one piece of evidence is presented to affirm his huge claims and accusations. Further his arguments have been proven to be erroneous in content and hold no water. All I had to do is prove that his arguments are speculative and contain some doubt which is what I have done. As a result I still hold my position that the Judeo-Christian God inspired The Book of Revelation because my opponent has not presented any evidence to prove otherwise.
# REFERENCES :
skinnerrr forfeited this round.
Since my opponent was busy and was forced to forfeit this round. I will not present any new rebuttals but further my arguments from last round.
PLEASE VOTE CON! PLEASE VOTE CON! PLEASE VOTE CON!
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Mr.Infidel 5 years ago
|Agreed with before the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Agreed with after the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Who had better conduct:||-||-||1 point|
|Had better spelling and grammar:||-||-||1 point|
|Made more convincing arguments:||-||-||3 points|
|Used the most reliable sources:||-||-||2 points|
|Total points awarded:||0||3|
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit. Con also refuted pro's contentions.
You are not eligible to vote on this debate
This debate has been configured to only allow voters who meet the requirements set by the debaters. This debate either has an Elo score requirement or is to be voted on by a select panel of judges.