The Instigator
Knaveslayer99
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Locke000
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

The C.I.S are the good guys during the events of the Clone Wars. [Star Wars]

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/9/2016 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 3 weeks ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 183 times Debate No: 96843
Debate Rounds (5)
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Knaveslayer99

Pro

So I tried to do this debate once and my opponent ended up just never getting back to me so I thought I'd try once again.

I will be defending the Confederacy Of Independent Systems as the good guys during the events of the Clone Wars and will be arguing it was the preferably side to the Republic.

Con will argue against my claims and will argue that the Republic or another Faction are clearly the good guys instead.

Round 1: Acceptance

Round 2: Opening Arguments

Round 3: Counter-Arguments

Round 4: Counter-Counter Arguments

Round 5: Conclusion
Locke000

Con

The Confederacy of Independent Systems was an evil entity in the Clone Wars. My argument is predicated on the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights and war crimes as defined by the U.N. and international treaties from our real world and history. To prove that the C.I.S., was not the good side of the Clone Wars I shall prove three things: 1) The C.I.S. violated the norms and rights set forth by the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights, 2) The Republic did not commit war crimes or violate rights, and 3) The C.I.S. is officially described as "oppressive". (Episodes from the Clone Wars animated TV show shall be abbreviated as [season]:[episode].)
Beginning the list of rights violations by the C.I.S. is slavery. In Clone Wars episodes 1:20-21, the Confederacy invaded the planet of the Ryloth and enslaved the Twi'leks, using them for harsh labor and as human shields to prevent attacks from the Republic. Also keep in mind that under U.N. law, prisoners of war cannot be forced to do labor. Once Twi'lek rebels and Clone forces had retaken control, the Twi'leks were immediately returned to freedom by the Republic. The slavery of the C.I.S. was not isolated to Ryloth. In episodes 4:11-13 we learn that the Confederacy revived the slave industry of Zygerria, which had long been dormant due to the strict illegality of slavery under the Republic.
The C.I.S. also did not actually give people a choice of which side of the war they would support, failing to respect the chosen neutrality of certain systems, unlike the Republic. One example is the planet of Onderon. When King Dendup chose neutrality the C.I.S. invaded the capital and installed a puppet king, Sanjay Rash. This was a clear violation of the right to neutrality in war, a right which is upheld by the U.N. Another example came in Clone Wars 4:1-3. When the Mon Calamari king of the planet Mon Cala died and his son, the rightful king, ascended to the throne, the C.I.S. pushed the Quarren, the second species of Mon Cala, also under the rule of the King, to attempt an armed coup, which was supported by C.I.S. military droids. This was despite the high probability that the Mon Cala and Quarren could have come to a peaceful agreement, as they did once the leader of the Quarren, Nossor Ri, realized his mistake in beginning the coup and brought immediate peace.
In Clone Wars 1:13-14, the C.I.S. committed perhaps one of its worst war crimes in the entire war: using weapons of mass destruction on civilian, neutral civilians. The C.I.S. had developed a "defoliator" weapon, which would destroy organic matter and not harm inorganic, such as their own droids. This weapon was fired upon a village of pacifist Lurmens as a weapons test. Such behavior is one of the highest war crimes under our international law, and no government which allows and condones such practices can be the "good guys", as my opponent would have you believe.
Lastly, the C.I.S. is officially described in the summary of season 1, episode 14 as "oppressive".
If you are to believe that the Confederacy of Independent Systems were the good guys in the Clone Wars, you would have to believe that slavery is acceptable, war prisoners don't have rights and can be treated like trash, neutrality is not an option in war, neutral systems should be invaded, and the use of weapons of mass destruction on unarmed, neutral civilians for weapons tests is acceptable. Please help us all keep our faith in the goodness of humanity and not accept these traits and policies as those of the "good guys".
Debate Round No. 1
Knaveslayer99

Pro

So I'm going to copy my argument from my last debate on this topic since my opponent never actually debated me I'd like to actually use this with an opponent who clearly is interested in this. :D

Firstly, The Confederacy of Independent Systems ) C.I.S were created by the Republic by accident this happened due to the corruption within the Republic it is a well known fact that the Republic favored the Core Systems and disliked the Outer Rim systems this is evident due to the fact that before the Clone Wars the Republic raised taxes on a lot of Outer Rim systems this resulted in the systems feeling like they were being treated unfairly and eventually led to the forming of the C.I.S.

Secondly, I will bring up is the fact that the Republic attacked first the Naboo Crisis had happened before the C.I.S had formed and thus they cannot be held accountable for that. However I would like to address the fact that 2 Jedi Anakin Skywalker and Obi-wan Kenobi along with 1 Senator Padme Amidala was found trespassing on C.I.S territory. Not to mention Kenobi had been spying on the Separatist Leaders this means that when the C.I.S orders the execution of the 3 trespassers it is completely within reason. However the Republic responds by sending an army to rescue them resulting in the deaths of thousands of innocent Geonosians who were simply defending their home from this foreign invader.

Thirdly, I will also point out the fact that although the C.I.S used Slavery so did the Republic hence their clone army an army of people born to train and fight for the Republic. If any of them wanted to live their own life they would not be allowed to this was evident in one of the Clone Wars episodes when Captain Rex finds a clone living a normal life. Rex then threatens to report the clone which in that case the clone could have faced execution just for wanting to live a normal life. Eventually Rex doesn't report him and lets him live in peace which is against the rules of the Republic Army meaning Rex broke the rules all because a clone helped him open his eyes convincing him that the clones can be more than just soldiers.

Fourthly, The Republic has forced famines upon worlds that did not deserve to be treated in such a way prime example is Kalee. Kalee is the home planet of General Grievous, the people of Kalee (Kaleesh) were at war with a neighboring species the Huk. When Grievous rose up and began to defeat the Huk eventually removing them from Kalee however Grievous was not satisfied the Huk had slain so many of his people Grievous perused the Huk to their homeworld. It was then that the Huk pleaded to the Republic for aid and the Republic accepted the plead and send Jedi who ended the war at the cost of the Kaleesh people putting them into a famine. It was this unfair treatment of his people that led to Grievous joining the C.I.S.

Final Statement: I would like to point out it was injustices like these that led to the banding together of alien governments to form the C.I.S to fight for a galaxy rid of a corrupt Republic and bring about a new era free from the holds of oppression. Some of the C.I.S's tactics may be ruthless but they are ruthless because they opponent is ruthless there is no way to play fairly when fighting a galactic tyranny. How many more injustices could the galaxy take until finally someone stood up to it that is exactly what the Separatist did and have been doing throughout the entire time of The Clone Wars.

Sources:
http://starwars.wikia.com......
http://starwars.wikia.com......
http://starwars.wikia.com......
http://starwars.wikia.com......
http://starwars.wikia.com......
http://starwars.wikia.com......
Locke000

Con

When Obi-wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and Senator Amidala were caught trespassing on Geonosis, it was because Obi-wan had followed a dangerous bounty hunter, Jango Fett, to the planet, after Jango had resisted arrest by Kenobi with deadly force. The Republic and Jedi council had long suspected the Trade Federation was planning another rebellion and thus Obi-wan had reasonable suspicions upon which to investigate further when he came across the droid factories on Geonosis. I would also like to remind everyone that Kenobi did not go to Geonosis to investigate unsubstantiated claims of droid factories, he went to the planet because he was following Jango Fett. After the Naboo Crisis, the Trade Federation had been ordered, by the Republic, to downsize their droid army*, and the droid factories on Geonosis were in clear violation of this order. Thus the Grand Army of the Republic had the legal right to invade Geonosis to stop their production of military droids for the Trade Federation, which were certainly not intended to be used as simple protocol droids. Furthermore, Kenobi, Skywalker, and Amidala were sentenced to executed for trespassing by Poggle the Lesser, a high-ranking member and founder of the C.I.S. who was in direct contact with the Sith lord Count Dooku. One can suspect that the sentence of execution was not motivated solely by justice or legal precedence, if it even was.

Despite the possible slave-status of Clone troopers, I posit that the Clones were the absolute best and most humane option for the Republic. The C.I.S. was mass-producing droids for their military, and a volunteer Republic military simply would not be able to muster anywhere near the required volume of troops. Because of the situation forced upon the Republic, the clone army was accepted as the Grand Army of the Republic for the Clone Wars. And clones were superior to droids for one sole reason: they weren't droids. Fives, one of the most prominent clones, said of clone troopers, in Clone Wars 4:10, "We are loyal soldiers, we follow orders, but we are not a bunch of unthinking droids, we are men. We must be trusted to make the right decisions, especially when the orders we are given are wrong. " Clones were given free-will, thus they were able to disobey immoral orders and the Republic would have a difficult time ordering war crimes. Furthermore, as stated by clone trooper Fives, clones were men. In Clone Wars 1:20, two clones troopers form a bond with a Twi'lek child, whose parents and entire village had been enslaved by the C.I.S. army. They even risk their lives to protect her. Can you imagine two C.I.S. droids doing the same? Also, I remind everyone that there is a vast difference between Clones and enslaving innocent Twi'lek civilians, which is what the C.I.S. did.

In the Huk War, it is true that the Republic came to the aid of the Yam'rii, but it did so because the Yam'rii lied about the origins of the war, saying the Kaleesh had been the aggressors. While the Republic did make a mistake, it is misleading to imply that the Republic knowingly caused famine on undeserving people.

My opponent would like you to believe that the Confederacy of Independent Systems rebelled against the Republic because of "injustices" placed upon them by a corrupt government, but this simply is not true. Let us look at three of the highest ranking leaders of the C.I.S., all of them founders. The first, Nute Gunray. Many of you will recognize his name from the Naboo Crisis. Gunray was the viceroy of the Trade Federation during the Naboo Crisis and throughout the Clone Wars. He was an conniving Neimodian concerned firstly with his own wealth and power. Originally, his power as viceroy was restricted by the Directorate of the Trade Federation, but Gunray conspired with the Sith lord Darth Sidious to assassinate them, thus becoming the sole ruler of the Trade Federation.*** Gunray's greed and vileness was demonstrated when he sent droids to set up illegal bases on Alaris Prime, a planet whose colonization rights had been granted to the Wookies. He then attempted to wipe out the Wookies which had arrived to rightfully colonize the moon until the Republic intervened. The second C.I.S. leader is Wat Tambor. Tambor was the one who ordered the invasion of Ryloth and the enslavement of the native Twi'leks, whose plight I talked about in my opening statement.**** If Wat Tambor is fine with ordering the enslavement of innocent civilians, then he is automatically not the good guy in the war, unless you consider what he did fine. Lastly, we have Shu Mai, a Gossam who used unscrupulous tactics in her business dealings and economically enslaved her own people, demanding tribute.***** Are these the leaders of the good guys in a war?

My opponent claims that the Republic instigated the Clone Wars by unreasonably invading Geonosis in response to the rightful execution of three trespassers. This is not true. Geonosis was the site of the main droid factories of Wat Tambor, which produced military droids for the Trade Federation, in direct violation of the military down-size order issued by the Republic after the Naboo Crisis. Second, my opponent would like you to believe that the Republic was just as ruthless as the C.I.S. in the use of slavery. First off, there is no comparison between the brutality of the C.I.S. enslaving innocent Twi'lek civilians and the Republic's clone army. Secondly, the clones were by far the most humane choice of soldier the Republic could have made, because clones were programmed to think and feel like real humans, to have compassion, sympathy, and love. And finally, my opponent makes the incorrect claim that the Confederacy of Independent Systems was motivated by a desire to correct injustices. But many, if not all, of the Confederate leaders, such as Nute Gunray, Wat Tambor, and Shu Mai, were evil, ruthless, and above all, greedy, valuing nothing above their own personal wealth and power. The Seperatist rebellion was not about justice, it was about money and power.

* http://starwars.wikia.com...
**http://starwars.wikia.com...
***http://starwars.wikia.com...
****http://starwars.wikia.com...
*****http://starwars.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Knaveslayer99

Pro

I thank Con and will not counter his claims.

First of all my opponent claims that the clones were the most humane thing the Republic could do but this is false given that the Clones were fitted with Chips to make them do absolutely anything Palpatine wanted when he gave them an order. This lead to a clone's innocent death and caused a lot of mental issues with other clones that discovered the truth about the chips. While I am aware both sides were being played by Palpatine it is obvious Palpatine planned to use the Republic and as such had some of the most evil Orders prepared for the Clone Army such as Order 37 an order in which the Clone Army would massacre entire cities in order to draw Jedi out of hiding after Order 66 luckily this order barely saw use. The was a lot of physiological effects on the clones from the war and unlike the Separatist they didn't lose lives of living organism they only lost droids.

"When Obi-wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and Senator Amidala were caught trespassing on Geonosis, it was because Obi-wan had followed a dangerous bounty hunter, Jango Fett" - Con

For the most part this is true but it does not excuse Obi-Wan of spying on the Separatist Leaders if all he was supposed to do was track the Bounty Hunter. If he had simply waited and contacted the council rather than infiltrating the Geonosian Base after all the Jedi believe in Democracy and Diplomacy yet Obi-Wan resorted to spying which led to him being sentenced to Execution and thus the Clone Wars began.

"And clones were superior to droids for one sole reason: they weren't droids." - Con

This is also false while the Clone were great soldiers the Droids simply would have won the war had it not been lead by Palpatine a direct quote from the Super Tactical Droid Kalani confirms this when he states that by his calculations

"Near the end of the war Separatist units vastly outnumbered Republic units, by my calculations the probability of us being defeated was only 23.6% percent" - General Kalani

Even Captain Rex quotes how intelligent Kalani is and even Ezra sides with Kalani when he runs a test on the 3 of them stating that he would have defeated them had his droids not malfunctioned from their age.

"While the Republic did make a mistake, it is misleading to imply that the Republic knowingly caused famine on undeserving people." - Con

While it was a mistake they should have gone back and correcting their mistake but instead still left he planet in famine and drought which is something you think the Republic would do but yet it doesn't simply leaving Kalee to it's sad fate.

"My opponent would like you to believe that the Confederacy of Independent Systems rebelled against the Republic because of "injustices" placed upon them by a corrupt government, but this simply is not true" - Con

This is a huge lie while the much larger Separatist were in on a bigger plan you cannot deny the injustices the Republic bestowed on Outer-Core systems and the taxes they raised coupled with the unfair treatment of Alien life. While it is true that the bigger Separatist Leaders are corrupt they are not in total control and this is evident by the Clone Wars as during it you can see the Separatist do indeed have their own form of democracy. They have a Parliament which at one stage attempted to negotiate peace but sadly that failed as a a result of Dooku per-longing the war by bombing a Republic Embassy. By simply pointed out the bigger Separatist leaders you ignored the entire Separatist Parliament in which is where almost all of the big decisions are made. As for Slavery just look at the Clone Army and all the psychological effects it left on the clones and the amount of life lost during the Clone Wars.

The issue with the Republic is that it's built upon Democracy of a corrupt system which favors core systems over outer systems. Unlike the C.I.S which was founded upon the principals of Equality, Equity and Justice for all species, races and people. While yes some Separatist used Slavery you cannot deny that the Republic would often look the other way when it came to Slavery a good example are most of the Criminal Cartels especially the Hutt Cartels which have a huge slavery ring. The Republic has a full pledged army and yet does not even attempt to put a stop to all the piracy and slavery which noted in one of the comics in recent Disney canon by Vader he makes it clear that Jabba can operate aslong as he does not interrupt the Empire and if he does the Empire would wipe him out. If the Empire could wipe him out why didn't the Republic and why did the Republic help Jabba get his child back? The whole reason the Republic helped Jabba for that particular reason was to become friends with the hutts so they could operate in their territories easier completely disregarding the fact they are helping one of the biggest criminals in the galaxy.

It is also worth noting that a lot of Separatist Systems that used Slavery had to resort to using slavery because of the heavy taxes the Republic had put on those systems. The Republic taxed some systems so hard that they had to resort to slavery once joining the C.I.S in hopes of fixing their economy so in the end the Republic is the main cause of slavery in the galaxy.

Sources:
http://starwars.wikia.com...
http://starwars.wikia.com...
http://starwars.wikia.com...
http://starwars.wikia.com...
http://starwars.wikia.com...
http://starwars.wikia.com...(super_tactical_droid)
Locke000

Con

The inhibitor chips in the clones cannot count against the Republic because they were placed by the Jedi master Sifo Dyas, the Republic did not even know about them. And while it is true that the Republic spent hundreds of thousands of lives in the War, instead of just using droids, I would like to remind everyone of my earlier argument: the clones were the most humane choice of soldiers for the Republic. What would you rather have your own planet invaded by? Droids who don't think and just follow the orders from evil men like Wat Tambor and Sith lords, or thinking, compassionate, and empathetic clone soldiers who will refuse to enslave you and and your family because it goes against their moral code?

I don't deny that Obi-wan Kenobi was spying on Geonosis, but doing so wasn't violating democracy and diplomacy. The Trade Federation was breaking the law by vastly upsizing their droid army. When Kenobi followed Jango Fett to Geonosis he happened upon "an unusual concentration of Federation ships". As a Jedi peacekeeper and Republic agent, Kenobi had a duty to investigate his very reasonable suspicions. And again, I will point out that the sentencing of Kenobi for espionage is 1) unfair because the Geonosians were violating the law and Kenobi had very reasonable suspicion to investigate, and 2) suspicious because the judge, Poggle the Lesser, who, by the way, overthrew the previous archduke in a coup, was in direct contact with the Sith lord Count Dooku, and by extension, Darth Sideous.

On the quote from General Kalani, it is hearsay. We cannot ask General Kalani what factors went into his calculation and how it was produced. Perhaps he had a bias, perhaps he made a mistake. The C.I.S. military consisted mostly of B1 battle droids, which is the "standard" battle droid. And these droids were famously known for being stupid. Time and time again they were tricked by very simple and non-complex ploys. In Clone Wars 5:10 we see a whole battle cruiser of C.I.S. droids tricked by Republic mech droids. Two Super Battle droids were even tricked into leaving their guard post and walking into a closet. There are many, many more examples of the stupidity of the C.I.S. droids showcased in the Clone Wars animated series. The reason basic B1 battle droid was so unintelligent, when clearly higher intelligence was readily achievable was due to cost. The C.I.S. chose quantity over quality. Certain highly-intelligent and effective droid models were employed, such as the BX-series*, but those were vastly more expensive and thus the leaders of the C.I.S., those funding the production, chose to mass-produce the cheaper, dumber models. So even though the C.I.S. droid army vastly outnumbered the Republic clone army, the numbers need to be normalized to account for the vast superiority of clone troopers, such as ARC troopers. But, let's assume General Kalani's assessment is correct, it still calculated a nearly 25% chance that the Republic would win. Those odds really aren't that bad, so my opponents claim that the "Droids simply would have won the war", that the Republic had no chance, is wrong. It's more wrong than saying, "If I roll this 6-sided dice, it will simply not land on 5."

We are unable to know how the Republic would have responded if they realize their mistake on Kalee. We have no way of knowing if the Republic ever knew the truth about Kalee. Ignorance is not an excuse for bad governmentship, but you can't call someone evil for not fixing injustices they aren't aware of. If we did, then who of us would not be now labeled as "evil"?

While the Confederacy of Independent Systems did have a Parliament, I believe it was nothing more than a trick to make the lesser members of the Confederacy believe they were actual members. The Confederacy was controlled the Sith lord Count Dooku, his master Darth Sideous, and evil, greedy beings like Nute Gunray, Shu Mai, and Wat Tambor. In Clone Wars 3:10, the C.I.S. parliament voted to pursue peace and coexistance with the Republic, however, Count Dooku had the leader of the new peace movement, Mina Bonteri, assassinated to end it. The wiki page on the Separatist Parliament agrees with my belief that it was not a real power in the C.I.S.** (My source is the same page my opponent looked at and seemed to have gotten the conclusion from that the Parliament had large amounts of power, despite it specifically stating the contrary.) Thus, my opponent's claims that "almost all of the big decisions" were made in the Parliament is false. It is understandable that the representatives of lesser systems backed down but leaders like Nute Gunray, Shu Mai, and Wat Tambor, among many others, had real leverage by ways of their droid supplies and economic power. The Trade Federation alone could have ended the war by cutting off their supply of droids to the C.I.S. military. But, none of them did end their war support because none of them wanted peace and coexistance. If the war was really about unjust laws, then coexistance would be the goal, such as it was with the Confederate States of America, for as an independent government, they could undo the Republic laws.

Let me set one thing straight: the Republic did not "look the other way" from the slave empire of the Hutts. The Hutt Empire was NOT part of the Republic, thus the Republic did not have jurisdiction. The Republic allows the Hutts to have slavery for the same reason the U.S. doesn't invade every nation we perceive as doing wrong, because doing so would be enforcing their own subjective morality upon others and violating the sovereignty of the Hutt Empire, which would definitely make them evil. Because the Hutt Empire was it's own nation, the Republic had to respect it's borders or go to war. A nation who respects the borders of other nations is one step closer to being a good nation.

Please show me proof that any system legitimately had to turn to slavery to survive economically. And even if they did, then why didn't they stop using slavery once they joined the C.I.S.? If their use of slavery was due to taxation laws under the Republic, and those laws stopped effecting them upon joining the C.I.S., then their reason for having slavery would no longer apply. But either way, how can people who would turn to the subjugation, oppression, and exploitation of others ever be called the "good guys"?

*http://starwars.wikia.com...
**http://starwars.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 3
Knaveslayer99

Pro

"I would like to remind everyone of my earlier argument: the clones were the most humane choice of soldiers for the Republic. " - Con

Once again using clones who are trained from birth to fight who by the way don't get an opinion when it comes to politics otherwise they would be killed let alone using a clone army of beings who can feel pain and who are forced to watch their "Brothers Die" is a more humane choice. Like I stated the Clone also had more Orders than just Order 66 like I stated in my argument one of those orders being Order 37 which was far more brutal and evil.

"The inhibitor chips in the clones cannot count against the Republic because they were placed by the Jedi master Sifo Dyas, the Republic did not even know about them" - Con

Is it not the Republic's duty to check and ensure the Clone Army they are using is indeed legitimate? If the Republic decided to just accept the Clone Army and still not investigate after Episode II to ensure that the Clones they are using are going under fair training and that they have all the information on "their" army?

"As a Jedi peacekeeper and Republic agent, Kenobi had a duty to investigate his very reasonable suspicions"

He is a peacekeeper yet he still choose to spy on Geonosis which ended up putting his apprentice and a Senator in danger rather than leaving Geonosis and report his suspicions to the Jedi Council who then can take it to the Senate. After all Obi-Wan states to Anakin in Episode III

"My allegiance is to the Republic to Democracy!" - Kenobi

Yet he did consider this "Democracy" and choose to take matters into his own hands which would end up resulting in the Clone Wars costing millions of lives just because Obi-Wan couldn't do what a Jedi is supposed to do. Keep in mind it is stated the Jedi are not supposed to get involved in politics and all the C.I.S were trying to do was leave Republic Control and go under another form of Government.

" I will point out that the sentencing of Kenobi for espionage is 1) unfair because the Geonosians were violating the law and Kenobi had very reasonable suspicion to investigate," - Con

The Genosians were breaking laws they didn't even want to follow anymore they wanted to split from the Republic as a result of it's harsh laws, taxes and policies that often favored humans over the "aliens" and as such many people saw this as unfair and unjust and went about trying to oppress these Alien cultures and outer-core systems.

"We cannot ask General Kalani what factors went into his calculation and how it was produced. Perhaps he had a bias, perhaps he made a mistake. " - Con

General Kalani is agreed on by Rex that he is super intelligent and as I pointed out before Ezra agreed that Kalani had beat them in the test to prove what side was superior and the droids won. As for the B1s and Super Battle Droids I don't see what their intelligence has to do with General Kalani or proving the C.I.S isn't good.

"it still calculated a nearly 25% chance that the Republic would win. Those odds really aren't that bad, so my opponents claim that the "Droids simply would have won the war", that the Republic had no chance, is wrong. It's more wrong than saying, "If I roll this 6-sided dice, it will simply not land on 5."

I had never stated the Republic would lose I was just stating they had some huge odds stacked against them also it's 23.6% I know you summed it up to 25% to make it simpler but because this is a Super Tactical Droid I'd say his calculations were correct. Kalani is so intelligent he completely prevented the emergency shut down code for all droids under his command believing it was a Republic Trick and to some degree it clearly was.

"While the Confederacy of Independent Systems did have a Parliament, I believe it was nothing more than a trick to make the lesser members of the Confederacy believe they were actual members"

I understand but if anything this proves how the C.I.S was willing to make peace with the Republic first despite who the C.I.S's leaders are you cannot deny that it was a majority of the C.I.S who willingly agreed that Co-existence before the Republic did and while yes you can claim it's due to Padme the fact remains that it was 1 Republic Senator who talked to another influential Separatist and that it was the C.I.S who considered this first and not the Republic Senate yet.

"Let me set one thing straight: the Republic did not "look the other way" from the slave empire of the Hutts. The Hutt Empire was NOT part of the Republic, thus the Republic did not have jurisdiction." - Con

Just as Obi-Wan had no jurisdiction to spy on Geonosis when as pointed out earlier in this counter argument he could have reported his suspicions to the "Democracy" he loved so very much. It should also be mentioned that Geonosis was not a Republic System but a System in the Outer-Rim which was less than a Parsec away from Tatooine if you claim they were still breaking Republic law then explain to me why the Republic never acted on the Hutts since it sounds to me like Geonosis was doing nothing wrong and was simply just acting outside of the Republic just like the Hutts and if the Republic respected it's borders once again it's good to see Obi-Wan respecting those borders by spying on the C.I.S Leaders.

"Please show me proof that any system legitimately had to turn to slavery to survive economically. And even if they did, then why didn't they stop using slavery once they joined the C.I.S.? If their use of slavery was due to taxation laws under the Republic, and those laws stopped effecting them upon joining the C.I.S.," - Con

I don't think you understand Economy it isn't just that easy to recover from heavy taxes especially when being dragged into a war once again look at what happened to Kalee and how it almost never recovered from the Republic's harsh decisions which almost took Kalee the entire Clone Wars just to recover. Most C.I.S Systems weren't just using Slavery to fix their economy they had to keep using it in order to say sustainable while the war was continuing.

"But either way, how can people who would turn to the subjugation, oppression, and exploitation of others ever be called the "good guys"?"

I'm wondering the same thing since the Republic exploits outer-core systems and oppresses them based on Species and Race which is proof by the Alien hatred under the Empire which is stated that the Racism towards other species had always stood even when the Republic was around. Same with how people can claim using a living army that feels pain, watches their own "family" members die next to them and despite the Republic using a inhumane army it also never even planned to run background checks on the clones to see exactly what was happening with them and check the process in which they grow up in.

Sources:
Star Wars Rebels
http://starwars.wikia.com...
http://starwars.wikia.com...
http://starwars.wikia.com...
http://starwars.wikia.com...
Locke000

Con

My opponent says it was wrong for the Republic to use clones because they were forced to fight in a war in which they watched their brothers die. But let me ask this: If the clones were made to feel no emotions at all, particularly grief, love, compassion, and loss, then would Pro not point to that as evidence that the clones are slaves created by the Republic? I would like to ask you, the audience, the question I posed earlier: Would you rather have your planet invaded by the compassionate, empathetic clone troopers, or the emotionless droids of the Separatists?

I will have to retroactively amend my previous statement that the inhibitor chip was placed by Jedi Master Sifo Dyas. The inhibitor chips were a standard procedure, Master Dyas had had the chips put into the clones he ordered programmed with extra safeguards. So the Republic did know the inhibitor chips were inside the clones, but because the few Kaminoians who knew about the extra features of the clone army chips kept them a secret, the Republic understandably was unaware of such orders as Order 37, thus the existance of Order 37 has no bearing on the moral status of the Republic.*

Obi-wan Kenobi did not "put his apprentice and a senator in danger". After he reported his findings on Geonosis to the Jedi Council and was seen getting captured, his apprentice, Anakin Skywalker was ordered to not go to Geonosis to attempt to rescue Kenobi. Padme Amidala, the senator Skywalker was charged with protecting, was the one who put herself and Skywalker in danger by going to Geonosis. Kenobi cannot be blamed for endangering Senator Amidala when she was the one who chose to go into danger. (And just to cover basis: The Jedi Council's specific order was for Skywalker to "stay with the senator". But the obvious implication was, "stay with the senator on Naboo.")

Once again, my opponent is attempting a major deception. In no way did Jedi Master Kenobi's actions on Geonosis cause the Clone Wars. Yes, it triggered it, but the Clone Wars was inevitable. Wat Tambor was mass producing military droids on Geonosis for the Trade Federation. Why do you think the Trade Federation needed millions of military droids? For war. The Confederacy of Independent Systems was gearing up for war. Whether or not Kenobi had been caught on Geonosis, the war would have started. The entire Clone War was part of Sith Lord Palpatine's plot to take total control of the galaxy. The war was inevitable.

And there is another major deception my opponent is attempting. He claims that, "all the C.I.S were trying to do was leave Republic Control and go under another form of Government." The factories on Geonosis were built by Wat Tambor, one of the founders and leaders of the C.I.S., to produce millions of military droids. And, at this time, the leaders of the C.I.S. did not know the clone army existed, thus they believed the Republic had no military which could fight their droid army. If all the C.I.S. wanted was to leave the Republic, they certainly wouldn't need a droid army numbering over 4 million** to do so.

I would like to know what "harsh laws, taxes and policies that often favored humans over the 'aliens'" my opponent claims existed and were the reasons for Geonosis joining the C.I.S. On the contrary, the Archduke of Geonosis, Poggle the Lesser, had a much more obvious and reasonable motivation. Poggle was born into the lower caste of Geonosian society, and rose to power through a rebellion, which was successful because Sith Lord Palpatine aided him.*** Therefore it would seem that Geonosis joined the C.I.S. as part of a bargin Poggle the Lesser had with the Sith.

In regard to Pro's section on General Kalani's test and calculations regarding the outcome of the Clone Wars: it's irrelevant to the discussion. My original claim that Pro set out to disprove is that the clones were superior to the C.I.S. droids because they weren't droids. But Pro's assertion that the droids would have defeated the clones is completely irrelevant to whether or not the C.I.S. was the good side of the Clone Wars. But, just to cover base: Kalani's test to prove that the droid army was superior to the Republic army is inadmisible because the test is hardly relevent. Both sides of the test battle were so far out of their prime that they did not reflect either side of the Clone Wars. The Republic side also lacked real Jedi masters. Also, Pro said, "As for the B1s and Super Battle Droids I don't see what their intelligence has to do with General Kalani." To answer this question: I clearly stated that General Kalani's calculation was stated as, "The droid army vastly outnumbered the clone army, thus they it should have won." But if the only factor in the calculation was numbers, then the calculation would be faulty because even the most basic clone trooper was immensly superior to the most basic droid, the B1 Battle Droid. However, we can't ask General Kalani about the specifics of the calculation because this "evidence" is hearsay, which is why I originally said it is not admisible in this debate.

Pro said, "I had never stated the Republic would lose." But he clearly did say so when he said, "Droids simply would have won the war." Is saying the droids would win the war not the same as saying the Republic would lose the same war?

I have no idea where my opponent got the notion that "the C.I.S was willing to make peace with the Republic first." In Clone Wars 3:10, Chancellor Palpatine reminds Senator Amidala that, "In the past, whenever we've reached out our hands in peace, they've been slapped away." So it is clear that the potential request for peace by the C.I.S. in that episode was not the C.I.S. being the first side to be willing to make peace.

Now we come upon another massive deception my opponent is attempting. He makes several claims in a single paragraph that are completely false. First, that Jedi Obi Wan Kenobi had no jurisdiction on Geonosis. Kenobi was a Jedi, his jurisdiction had nothing to do with the Republic. The Jedi Order was NOT part of the Republic, they simply served it voluntarily.**** Second, my opponent says the flat out lie that, "Geonosis was not a Republic System but a System in the Outer-Rim." This line is very amusing because the second part completely contradicts and disproves the first. The Outer-Rim was part of the Galactic Republic*****, therefore Geonosis was too. And Geonosis being "less than a parsec away from Tatooine" has absolutely no relevance to political status of it. Just look at a world map to see how political borders work. Geonosis was violating Republic law by knowingly aiding the Trade Federation in violating their military restrictions. So my opponents claims that "Geonosis was doing nothing wrong and was simply just acting outside of the Republic" is 100% false and contradicts itself. Geonosis WAS doing something wrong, they were acting outside of Republic law.

In round 3 of this debate, I asked my opponent for proof that, "any system legitimately had to turn to slavery to survive economically." He completely failed to do so, instead just repeating the same unsubstantiated "facts" to support his claims.

The final set of claims my opponent made is that the "Republic exploits outer-core systems and oppresses them based on Species and Race." First off, the outer-core includes the planet Alderaan, which is primarily human, and certainly not oppressed. I assume my opponent meant "outer-rim systems". Anyway, where is the proof of this? The wiki page on humanocentrism makes no mention of the Republic "exploiting outer-rim systems based on species and race" (http://starwars.wikia.com...). I would like to know where my opponent got the information that the Republic did so. Or is this another completely unsubstantiated fake-fact being used to falsly support a claim?

In this round, we have seen that my opponent lacks any real basis for his assertion that the C.I.S. was the good guys in the Clone Wars. Every one of his paragraphs had false "facts" that he clearly did not fact-check, outright lies, bent truths, self-contradictions, and completely made up "facts" which he used to support his claim. My opponent also spent time arguing points which have no relevance to the actual debate of whether or not the C.I.S. was the good side of the Clone Wars, such as if the droid army would have defeated the clone army, in an attempt to create a false impression that he was proving valid points.

*http://starwars.wikia.com...
**http://starwars.wikia.com...
***http://starwars.wikia.com...
****http://starwars.wikia.com...
*****http://starwars.wikia.com...

Note to Pro: For round 5 you can do counter arguments for this post, which will even out the number of times each of us has done counter-arguments at three. My round 5 post will be only a closing statement, but yours can be counter-arguments for round 4 plus your closing.
Debate Round No. 4
Knaveslayer99

Pro

I will now continue with my Conclusion.

My opponent has used slander and propaganda coupled with lies and ignoring facts to attempt to gain the upper hand during this debate. He has claimed the the C.I.S were producing the droids to prepare for war but where is the proof of this? You can claim to make a logical conclusion that it was preparations for the upcoming war but I say the reason these droids were being mass produced was simply to protect Systems that swore loyalty to the Confederacy Of Independent Systems one can easily make this claim due to one of the facts I stated in an earlier argument. Many systems economies were almost on the edge of failure if not had already failed and as a result their government weakened making it much easier for pirates and slavers to attack the weakened government/planet just like the Huk attempted to do to Kalee.

Here is a direct quote from Count Dooku on the matter of the Republic and the C.I.S

"It is an honor to stand before you, for you represent the freedom and the future of our galaxy. The once-great Republic and Jedi Order have become victims of their own ambitions, and the Supreme Chancellor is no more than a pawn of corporate monopolies. As a people you called out for change, you called out for leadership, and I humbly answered that call. Together we challenged the system. We asked for equality. And how were we met? With war! The Jedi secret army of clones was revealed, and their treachery was far greater than we could have imagined! Countless living beingsâ€"these clones the Jedi createdâ€"have been sent to their deaths, while we sacrifice mainly droids. Our soldiers of flesh and blood are willing participants! They are your fathers and sons, mothers and daughters, who fight not because they were grown and designed to do so, but because they know in their hearts that they are fighting for a just and noble cause!" - Count Dooku

This count clearly shows that the C.I.S called out for equality but why would they need to if the Republic wasn't against aliens? Keep in mind around 70% of the C.I.S leaders are Aliens yet they still needed to call for equality this clearly proves the true feelings the Republic has towards Aliens. Dooku also states how he uses droids and that the only blood and flesh soldiers/leaders in the war are willing participants who are not breed to bleed and die for an ideology they have shoved down their throats! My opponent keeps asking

The whole reason that politicans joined the Separatist Alliance aka the C.I.S is a result of corruption coupled with unfair treatment of innocent and alien systems. You make claims that I have no proof that the Republic was against Aliens yet look at the C.I.S and how many of their politicans and leaders are aliens and as stated in the quote from Dooku the C.I.S was about forming equality or atleast that's what it was to those who allied themselves with the C.I.S. The Republic is a corrupt government run by rich and powerful men which is evident with Palpatine making his way to power and keeping his power throughout the whole war.

The C.I.S was formed to fight inequality created by the Republic from heavy taxes on Outer-Rim systems along with unfair treatmentand favourtism of Core Systems. If the Republic is truly a democracy surely the Republic would have heard these systems call for aid and help yet just like Kalee they left systems in a damaged and dying state. If the Republic was truly the better side why doesn't it just use droids instead of forcing innocent organisms to live, bleed and die to fight for them which is clearly far more inhumane than a droid army!

I ask the audience can you ignore the attrocities commited by the Republic and it's corruption? The Republic is clearly corrupt if not more corrupt than the C.I.S (It's head leaders) also a quick statement to my opponent if you watch the Clone Wars you'll see that when Wat Tambor is about to die he says

"Its does not matter we will both die for the glory of the Separatist Alliance"

So even Wat Tambor held faith in what the C.I.S stood for against the Republic and it's corrupt senate!

Sources:
Star Wars Rebels
Star Wars The Clone Wars
http://starwars.wikia.com...
http://starwars.wikia.com...
http://starwars.wikia.com...
+ The Sources I used in my earlier arguments

Locke000

Con

Throughout this debate, particularly in round 4, my opponent attempted to use completely made up "facts", false claims that he did not fact check, outright lies, and bent truths. I will go over some of the most blatant lies:

1) My opponent claimed that Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi caused the Clone Wars when he investigated the illegal activity being carried out by the Geonosians and Trade Federation on Geonosis. The Trade Federation and C.I.S. were gearing for war. My opponent asks where the proof of this is. The proof is the First Battle of Geonosis (shown in Star Wars: Episode 2 " The Clone Wars). The C.I.S. had thousands of tanks and other such heavy artillery droids, along with millions of B1 and B2 battle droids. If the droids were meant as guardians for C.I.S. planets, why were there millions of battle droids all stationed on Geonosis, and why did they have heavy artillery droids? You don"t use heavy artillery and tanks to defend against pirates and slavers, you use them to fight a war. Furthermore, the entire Clone Wars was a plot engineered by the Sith Lord Palpatine. Therefore it is clear that the C.I.S. droid army was built to fight a war against the Republic clone army, thus fulfilling Palpatine"s plan. His plan did not include millions upon millions of droids being built as security guards.

2) My opponent claimed Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi had no jurisdiction to investigate the illegal activity on Geonosis, saying, "Geonosis was not a Republic System but a System in the Outer-Rim." This of course is wrong, Geonosis was a Republic System. The proof? It was part of the area known as the "Outer-rim", which was Republic territory. Furthermore, a Jedi"s jurisdiction, such as in the case of Kenobi, is not tied to the Republic if they are acting as Jedi, not Republic agents. So again, my opponent used false information to support his claim.

3) My opponent claimed in episode 10 of season 3 of the Clone Wars animated series that the C.I.S. became the side first willing to make peace. But in that very episode it is said, "In the past, whenever we've [the Republic] reached out our hands in peace, they've been slapped away." Clearly my opponent did not fact check or perhaps he was intentionally leaving out crucial information.

4) My opponent claimed, "The Republic exploits outer-core systems and oppresses them based on Species and Race." As I mentioned before, the wiki page on humanocentrism (http://starwars.wikia.com...) makes no mention of such activities. When I pointed this out previously and asked Pro for proof, instead of proving proof, he neglected to do so. Furthermore, Pro bent my words, claiming, "Con makes claims that I have no proof that the Republic was against Aliens." The only thing I said was asking him where his proof that the Republic exploited systems based on species and race is, not that the Republic was absolutely not racist against non-humans. But, Con was unable to provide proof and resorted to putting words into my mouth.

In this debate, my opponent conveniently skipped addressing a major point which I brought up in my opening statement: the C.I.S. used weapons of mass destruction on neutral, innocent civilians (Clone Wars 1:13-14). Pro never once addressed this alarming contradiction to his claim that the C.I.S. was the good side of the Clone Wars. Ever since the beginning of modern international war crimes attacking civilian populations has been illegal. Attacking neutral civilians with weapons of mass destruction is even worse. And I will remind everyone that the C.I.S. was only TESTING their weapon on a civilian village with zero strategic value. Is the good side of the Clone Wars the side that tested weapons of mass destruction on neutral civilian populations?

One of the main points my opponent brought up to prove the Republic was not the good side is the clone army, saying it was cruel for the Republic to breed clones that they would then send into war. However, if you watch the Clone Wars animated series, you will see many instances in which the clones are as compassionate as real humans, liberating the enslaved Twi"leks, saving a Twi"lek child, risking their lives for their brother clones, and refusing to carry out orders which are morally wrong. Without a doubt, the citizens of C.I.S.-aligned planets which were invaded by the clone army were treated infinitely better by the clones than their Republic counter-parts, who were enslaved by the C.I.S. droid army.

The second main point of my opponent is that the C.I.S. was primarily a coalition to fight the injustices of the Republic. I do not deny that the Republic did have unjust laws, but the leaders of the Separatists, which included vile people such as Nute Gunray, Wat Tambor, and Shu Mai, were in it for the money and power. The other members of the C.I.S. were nothing more than pawns given the illusion of democracy. When the C.I.S. senate voted to open peace talks, Count Dooku instead aggravated the war, proving that the lesser systems who are given a place on the C.I.S. actually have no power, all of the power is with the evil leaders, who were far more concerned with their personal profits than achieving justice and equality for non-humans.

When you vote on this debate you will be voting on who won, me or my opponent. I ask you to remember all of the self-contradictions, blatant lies, bent truths, and false facts of my opponent when you vote. Even if you still believe the C.I.S. was justified in the Clone Wars, and maybe even that they were the good guys, it is clear that my opponent did not win this debate.
Debate Round No. 5
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