The Instigator
kwagga_la
Pro (for)
The Contender
tumeric
Con (against)

The Calvinist Doctrine of Unconditional Election is wrong

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/20/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 350 times Debate No: 106923
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

kwagga_la

Pro

The Calvinist position can be stated as follows regarding Unconditional Election: This means simply: God chooses to give some people eternal life, without looking for anything good in them as a condition for loving and saving them. Before any man or woman is born -- in fact, before the world was made -- God decided who would go to heaven and who would not. Before they did good or bad, God chose some to be His people and rejected others. http://www.prca.org...

I believe the above position is wrong because it contradicts the Bible that states we have assurance of salvation among others. Con is free to state his/her case from the acceptance round.

The Debate is meant for Calvinists who hold to the above position,
tumeric

Con

I don't really hold this position, but I was raised with this belief (we called it Predestination) and it makes a lot of sense.

If you start with the premise that God is both all-powerful and all-knowing, then predestination must be true as there cannot be free will. This is because God would have known the outcome of any possible scenario from the outset.

Another interesting idea is the Anonymous Christian. These are people who are saved but don't profess Christ. This must also be true, because anyone who wasn't born yesterday can see that people do not really understand their own motivations. Someone who knows you well can give a much more accurate description of you than you would. Therefore a person's expressed believes is a very poor indicator of what is in their hearts. Therefore you cannot decide to accept Jesus in one moment.

Also, anyone who wasn't born yesterday can see that there can be very Christlike behavior demonstrated by people who are not christians. If this is not because Christ is in them, it means that Christ is not the only source for christian behavior, which would seem impossible.
Debate Round No. 1
kwagga_la

Pro

Thank you for accepting the Debate. There are two issues here that I would like to address. The first is whether or not free will exists and the second is what my opponent calls the "anonymous Christian".

I would like to ask Con to explain why free will does not exist in order to rebut it properly. I believe free will does exist but determined within context. Let me give an example: If you play chess you have rules that you must adhere to. With those rules you are free to choose millions of different moves and sequences that will determine the outcome of the game. The rules and nature of the pieces and board is fixed and do not determine the choices the player will make. I give this brief explanation awaiting Con"s explanation to rebut it properly.

Secondly, the anonymous Christian presents questions that contradict Scripture in my opinion:

Do you believe salvation is only through Jesus Christ? If there are people out there who are predestined to be saved who never heard the Gospel then it means that salvation is not found only in Christ.

If people are predestined why did Jesus Christ give the great commission to go out and preach the Gospel? It does not matter whether the elect hear the Gospel or not. They will be saved regardless.

Jesus himself said He came to save the lost. How can someone who is predestined to be saved lost at any time? Clearly you can only be lost if you are not predestined.

There are many warnings in the Bible exhorting Believers to be watchful. Why would this be necessary if you are predestined to be saved?

Mark 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
If you are pre-ordained to be saved what does it matter whether you fall into temptation?

The last question I hope my opponent can touch on is what happens to babies who die at birth. Will the un-elected baby go to hell?

Thank you!
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Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by kwagga_la 6 months ago
kwagga_la
@FollowerofChrist1955 I stated that I believe the doctrine mentioned contradicts the Bible. It will obviously be a discussion based on the Bible. This brings three questions to mind regarding your comments:

1. You state: Believers guess at scripture because they are Biblically illiterate, that means they should not be arguing debates.

Since you hold strictly to the Bible, where does it say this in Scripture? Show me where it says Biblical illiterate or, for that matter, literate believers are not allowed to argue debates? Do you consider yourself Biblical literate? According to your reasoning, Titus applies to you as well, but here you are, on a Debate site

2. Do you regard discussing things found in the Bible as foolish? I state my argument on the Bible not my opinion and you quote a verse out of context to show it is foolish? You see, the context of the Scripture you quote is regarding whether the argument is foolish or not.

3. 1Pe_3:15" But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

I am asking a Calvinist a reason for his hope based on his particular doctrine. Is this wrong?
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 6 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
The title and your opinion on it are both wrong!

The Calvinist Doctrine of Unconditional Election is wrong

1. Doctrine is Gods alone not any denominations, not even yours.
2. If YOU have bought off ON a Doctrine provided by a denomination and hold fast to their Doctrine, your likely Saved only or Saved with reward, but certainly "NOT" in line for Kingship according to scripture not opinion! which is what YOU are going by, that makes you in violation yourself of multiple scriptures at onset.
3. You salvation is secure, BECAUSE it's FREE, not earned.
4. Rewards, Crowns are EARNED ALONE not gifted by scripture.

correct title should be God knows WHO is saved and who isn't from the foundation of the World!
The correct answer is YES!
Rationale: God says it THAT ends it! Human or denominational opinion is useless, pointless and serves divisiveness alone, they are ALL wrong based on scripture evidence and secular evidence:
look up list how many Christian Denominations ... if you can explain why there are in the thousands, then your on the right tract ... they ALL are in violation of scripture ... even yours.

Rule should require scripture alone not opinions, though slight comments should be allowed. Reason ... Believers guess at scripture because they are Biblically illiterate, that means they should not be arguing debates, because they Like you, are basing them on what YOU Think not what God says, or what God thinks. If this were not true, you would not be arguing this point as Titus warns?

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.

1 Timothy 1:4 or devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculation rather than the stewardship of God"s work, which is by faith. 5 The goal of our instruction is the love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and a sincere faith."
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