The Instigator
17djones
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
Bitch_Goddess
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

The Case of The Kneeling at the flag and Anthem

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
17djones
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/27/2017 Category: Sports
Updated: 9 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,364 times Debate No: 104167
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (25)
Votes (1)

 

17djones

Con

While everyone has the right to protest and voice their opinion, there are ways we can do it w/o showing complete disregard for our patriotism. The NFL recently has been in the midst of a "scandal" in which the players and other staff were, in my opinion, disrespectful to the flag, the country, and those who fought for it. They did it because they wanted to protest President Trump's comments about them kneeling. While I don't particularly like the president's choice of words regarding the situation, he was right in saying that there should be no tolerance for a complete disrespect of this nation and what it stands for. And plus, this is coming from people who get paid millions of dollars to play this sport, and they want to repay America by spitting in it's face? I don't think so. But, I am willing to hear anyone else's arguments over this topic.
Bitch_Goddess

Pro

I thank Con for allowing me to accept this debate.
Before I go further, I would just like to state that I, myself, do indeed stand for the flag.
I am here to go against the idea that the NFL players should have to stand.

"While I don't particularly like the president's choice of words regarding the situation, he was right in saying that there should be no tolerance for a complete disrespect of this nation and what it stands for."
This is the specific reason as to why I accepted this debate. Con states that there should "be no tolerance" for this act. I disagree. The reason our soldiers fought/fight for the USA is to allow the American citizens the freedom of choice and speech.
Tolerate: allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference.
So by "not tolerating", you would not allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of men kneeling on the field.
With this, I say it would be disrespectful to not allow these men to kneel during the anthem. By denying them their right to kneel, you are taking away the very thing the soldiers fought for people to do: freedom. Yes, I agree that it is disrespectful. However, it is even more disrespectful when you take away that right when trying to say it's disrespectful to the soldiers. It's quite honestly hypocritical: taking away the right of others while saying it's because they are showing disrespect those of who fought for their rights.

I look forward to Con's argument in Round 2.
Debate Round No. 1
17djones

Con

Thanks for accepting. I would like to start out by stating that when I said it should not be tolerated, what I meant was that NFL should start being more proactive against this very practice. Again, I believe they have the right to kneel. But the practice itself is disrespectful to those who fought and either died or lost their minds or limbs. I would also like to dispute that I did not say they had to stand for the anthem. They can link arms, they can stand without placing their hands over their hearts. I just don't think that it's okay to kneel at the anthem because you're trying to make a statement. There are many ways to make a statement without being disrespectful. I would also like to point out the fact that the NFL is very hypocritical when it comes to things like this. For example, they wouldn't allow for the Cowboy's to wear stickers showing solidarity to the Dallas police officers who were gunned down by a Black Lives Matter activists. They also wouldn't allow for players to wear cleats showing support to those who lost loved ones on 9/11. But yet, they would allow for players, like Colin Kaepernick (I think I spelled his name right), to wear socks that depict cops as pigs and would allow them to kneel at the anthem. It just shows that the NFL has no standards when it comes to respecting the nation. Yes, they have tossed out players who do stuff that go way to far as it pertains to this topic, but they should start being a little more strict on their policies for this stuff. So, I reiterate, the practice of kneeling, while constitutional, is not a good way to make a statement. Plus, I find it hard to believe that these guys want to protest the same nation that is allowing them to play football and receive millions of dollars in their contracts. It's like a homeless person on the street who does drugs and alcohol, yet says that America is unfair for not helping him.
Bitch_Goddess

Pro

Kneeling down, as you said, is a sign of protest towards Trump. Yes, in my opinion, they are going about it wrong. But none-the-less, it is their way of protest. They are not deliberately trying to protest against soldiers who fight and die for them.
They believe that by kneeling to the national anthem, it protests Trump.
Like I said, I do believe it is disrespectful. The whole point of the anthem is to those who fought and died for us, our country and our freedom.
I guess the wrong person accepted this debate.
I apologize for the confusion, I do agree with you that it is disrespectful. I thought that when you stated it shouldn't be tolerated, that it shouldn't be allowed (as you can tell by my entire argument Round 1).
But I thank you for this opportunity. Your arguments have helped straighten my view on this more than it already was.

I will be forfeiting this argument because I believe you can find someone who actually takes the stance of it not being disrespectful.
Sorry for wasting your time!
Debate Round No. 2
17djones

Con

Oh no, you didn't waste my time. I should be apologizing for the confusion. I thank you for doing this debate and letting me hear another person's side.
Bitch_Goddess

Pro

I just realized I have absolutely no idea how to forfeit the debate, so since this is the last round I will just continue it.
Debate Round No. 3
25 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Nd2400 9 months ago
Nd2400
Sure they probably could do that at a different time in the such as half time. I would not have a problem with that. But they wasn't truing thinking of how to effectively protest for social injustice. Probably because trump said his remarks on a Friday night, so it put the Whole NFL league at a damn if we do or damn if we don't. Trump put the league in a no win-win. But lets look back at this colin was doing this last season, so the only time he could have done his protest in front of a national television was during the anthem. But again his intent wasn't to disrespect the flag or whats it mean, it was to point out he was agaist the injustice around this country. He said that form the very beginning. And people got the impression that he was against this country, which is further than the truth.
Posted by Bitch_Goddess 9 months ago
Bitch_Goddess
Then why do they pick the time of the anthem to protest? They could have done it at any other time in the game, but they chose to do it when it was time to stand for the anthem.
" So you think not showing up during the anthem or having their back against the flag is more right than kneeling?"
I think none of them are "more right". They are both disrespectful actions towards the flag. Even if they are not protesting it, they did not stand for the anthem, and that in and of itself is disrespectful.
It makes no sense to not stand if they are trying to protest something else.
Again, other options could have been to "refuse to play (which would certainly strike up commotion between everyone), take a moment of silence for those who have been lost due to police brutality, stop mid-damn-game, come out on the field and kneel THEN."
Posted by Nd2400 9 months ago
Nd2400
Again the players are not protesting the flag nor the anthem. They are fighting for social injustice. Kneeling is not being disrespectful toward the flag or the anthem. Oh not all the players are having there hand over there hearts, during the anthem, but some of them are. So you think not showing up during the anthem or having their back against the flag is more right than kneeling? People going to see this issue differently, such as this. But we all should see the injustice in this country. We can't ignore this.... Oh yea, trump should have more important things on his mind not the NFL. We getting closer toward war, we having issues with china because of NK, trade could become very difficult if trump keeping on his current path. This country is even more dividend since the past 60 years. Should focus on better health care for all America, not focusing on the elite tax cuts. They is a lot more issues trump should be handing not the NFL.
Posted by Bitch_Goddess 9 months ago
Bitch_Goddess
Just a heads up, when the football players kneel, they don't put their hands over their hearts. They just kneel.

"Yes, the flag and the national anthem isn't for trump."
"Again this really having nothing again the flag nor the anthem, I don't know why people are thinking this way, they not protesting against the flag or this country. "
The players are KNEELING DURING THE ANTHEM. How would people not think it's being disrespectful to the very thing they are protesting? There are so many other things they could do, such as refuse to play (which would certainly strike up commotion between everyone), take a moment of silence for those who have been lost due to police brutality, stop mid-damn-game, come out on the field and kneel THEN.
It makes absolutely zero sense to say they are not disrespecting the flag and anthem when that's the exact time they decide it is a good idea to kneel (when we are honoring soldiers who fight and die for us).
We stand for the national anthem and flag because it is a sign of respect. Kneeling during it is not the custom of respect that we people have made for the honoring and respect for the flag and anthem. We shake hands because that is how we show respect. We don't shake feet. We take our hats off when we are honoring the death of someone. We don't put hats on.
It. Is. Respect.
Going against what we see as the normal view of respect, is indeed, disrespectful.
Posted by Nd2400 9 months ago
Nd2400
It the best way to make a stand, on national television, they won't get that anywhere else. Only the top players could do it somewhere. But really doing this during before the game is just the best time either though it might not seem that way. Yes, the flag and the national anthem isn't for trump. But like I said before he should not have open this can of warms. More importantly, is the player are not protesting against the flag nor the anthem by kneeling. they are doing it because of the injustice of the police force in this country and for equal rights. Again this really having nothing again the flag nor the anthem, I don't know why people are thinking this way, they not protesting against the flag or this country. Now with Trump, the players also not really protesting against him by kneeling, it trying to show they have unity against him. Yes, the flag is a symbol and respect to this country, So, I don't know why the so call the disrespect comes in when they are kneeling? it would be more of a disrespect if they didn't show up to the anthem or have they back against the flag, that would be disrespect. But kneeling with their hand over there heart isn;t disrespect.
Posted by Bitch_Goddess 9 months ago
Bitch_Goddess
How was it the only way they could do this? There are multiple ways of protesting. And how does it make sense? The flag and anthem are NOT FOR TRUMP. It's like if I were to chain myself to the doorstep of a doctors office in order to protest breaking down a library. It makes no sense because the two are not the same. The doctors' office has no correlation to the library itself.
If their intent wasn't to disrespect the flag, they are doing a horrible job at that. The flag and anthem, like I said many times before, are not symbolic of Trump. Therefore, it makes no sense to start ignoring the accustoms of them (standing for the flag and anthem, which are signs of respect for the soldiers) in order to protest someone/something that is completely irrelevant to the meaning of the flag and anthem
Posted by Nd2400 9 months ago
Nd2400
This is the only way they could do this. Again the intent wasn't to disrespect the flag nor the anthem. It was trying to show how injustice this country is, and now because of trump. They the players to coaches to owner agree they not against the flag nor the anthem. Kneeling actually isn't as bad, as not showing up to the flag or the anthem.
Posted by Bitch_Goddess 9 months ago
Bitch_Goddess
It's disrespectful because the flag and anthem itself do not represent our president. They represent our soldiers who fight and die for us.
If they want to protest Trump, there should be another way to do it. It makes no sense for them to not show respect to the flag and anthem when those have absolutely nothing to do with Trump.
Posted by Nd2400 9 months ago
Nd2400
Okay tell me why it disrespectful? They as the players and owners are not protesting the flag, they are protesting for social injustice in this country. And was protesting against trump because he shouldn't had open his mouth. Him opening his month only made things worst, not better.
Posted by Bitch_Goddess 9 months ago
Bitch_Goddess
Arganger, the point of standing to the flag is to show respect to those who have died for our freedom and country. Just because you do not like the things some people (like Trump) do, does not mean you should not stand for those who fought for us. And I understand why you would not like Trump (if that's the reason). I don't particularly like the man as well.
I am sorry about your father, however, I don't understand why you don't stand for the flag when it's there to represent the soldiers who fought for the freedoms we have today. It's not a salute to Trump, it's a salute to the brave men, like your father, who has saved us from becoming freedomless men and women.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 9 months ago
dsjpk5
17djonesBitch_GoddessTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Concession.