The Instigator
Orwell
Pro (for)
Losing
17 Points
The Contender
GarretKadeDupre
Con (against)
Winning
53 Points

The Catholic Church is harmful to society

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 13 votes the winner is...
GarretKadeDupre
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/22/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,943 times Debate No: 30573
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (21)
Votes (13)

 

Orwell

Pro

I will be arguing that the world would be better off without the Roman Catholic church. It will be for my opponent to demonstrate that the church's good actions outweigh the bad.

Rules
No semantics.
We share an equal burden of proof.
The first round will be for acceptance; the second round for our respective arguments; and the third round for rebuttals to the arguments in round two.
GarretKadeDupre

Con

I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
Orwell

Pro

I thank my opponent for accepting this debate.

I will presenting examples that should illustrate the damage the Catholic Church has done to society.

The Crusades
In 1095 Pope Urban II announced that the Church would be going to war with the Muslim world, with the goal of gaining access to Jerusalem. He called on French and Italian Christians to fight for the Church, in return for indulgences. Over the next 200 years the Catholic Church continued one of the bloodiest wars in history, leading to the deaths of around two million people, as well as the destruction of countless others' homes, and a rift between the Western and Eastern worlds.

Contraception
The Church continues to maintain that not only is all abortion wrong, even in cases of rape; but also that all birth control is wrong. It goes to the most overcrowded countries in the world; many riddled with Aids, and tells the people there that condoms are immoral. With over a billion members worldwide, the Catholic Church is hugely influential. While aid organisations are trying to distribute birth control, and so give women control over their bodies, the Church undoes all this on the basis of an archaic doctrine.

Child abuse
Given the number of countries the Catholic Church operates in, it is difficult to quantify, but we know of over 3,000 victims of sexual abuse at the hands of Catholic priests. This of course does not take into account the victims who have been too frightened to come forward, or the undocumented cases that happen in the developing world. So far the Church has paid over two billion dollars to these victims, although this doesn't come close to compensating. There is also evidence that there has been a concerted effort by the Church, right up to and including Pope Ratzinger, to hide this abuse.

These examples should illustrate that far from being a "force for good", the Roman Catholic Church has done huge harm to society.

Sources
http://www.guardian.co.uk...
http://fallibleblogma.com...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
GarretKadeDupre

Con

Aid to persecuted Jews during the Holocaust:

The Catholic Church in Poland aided many Jews during the Holocaust, in spite of the fact that harboring Jews was punishable by death. (1)(2) Thousands of Jews were "hidden, fed, clothed, and bedded in the 180 known places of refuge in Vatican City, churches and basilicas, Church administrative buildings, and parish houses." (3) The Pope himself personally took care of misplaced Jews. According to Jewish theologian and Israeli historian, Rabbi Lapide, "No less than 3,000 Jews found refuge at one time at the Pope’s summer residence at Castel Gandolfo [...]" (4)

Charity:

The Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization in the entire world. (12)(13) It placed in the top 10 of Chronicles of Philanthropy's 2010 Philanthropy 400 ranking. (5)

Healthcare:

The Catholic, charity health-care system is responsible for 637 hospitals, fulfilling 17% of total U.S. hospital admissions. (6)

Education:

The very idea of Universities was derived directly from Catholic monasticism. (7)

According to Bloomberg Businessweek magazine, the Catholic Church is the biggest operator of private schools in the United States, with more than 2.6 million students enrolled in its 6,900 elementary schools and roughly 1,200 high schools. The Church has 230 colleges and universities which, together, have a grand total of 670,000 students. (6)

Science:

Modern science owes much of its history to Catholicism. Galileo, the physicist, mathematician, astronomer, philosopher, and devout Catholic, (10) is credited as being the father of the scientific method, (9) along with Roger Bacon, a Catholic monk.

And last, but not least, the Big Bang Theory was first proposed by a Catholic priest. (8)

The Catholic Church is beneficial to society.

(1) Tadeusz Piotrowski (1997). "Assistance to Jews". Poland's Holocaust. McFarland & Company. p. 117. ISBN 0-7864-0371-3.
(2) Delegatura. The Polish government-in-exile underground representation in Poland. Shoah Resource Center, The International School for Holocaust Studies. PDF direct download, 45.2 KB. Retrieved October 2, 2012.
(3) Joseph Lichten, "A Question of Moral Judgement: Pius XII and the Jews," in Graham, 126.
(4) Pinchas E. Lapide, Three Popes and the Jews (New York: Hawthorn, 1967), 133.
(5) http://cnsblog.wordpress.com...
(6) http://www.businessweek.com...
(7) http://www.newoxfordreview.org...
(8) http://www.pbs.org...
(9) http://scientificmethod.com...
(10) Sharratt (1994, pp. 17, 213)
(11) http://www.westerncultureglobal.org...
(12) http://www.forbes.com...
(13) http://www.zenit.org...
Debate Round No. 2
Orwell

Pro

Catholic treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany





You say that the Church "aided many Jews during the Holocaust". In reality, even the Catholic Church itself acknowledges its part in the Holocaust. In 1998 (about time) the Vatican finally officially apologized "for not doing more to challenge the Nazi extermination of more than 6 million Jews". Given that at the time 40% of Germans were Catholic, it's difficult to over-state the impact the Churches intervention could have had.

Hitler himself was brought up in a Catholic family, and remained a member of the Church until his death. The teachings of the Church clearly influenced him greatly. In Mein Kampf he stated "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord". Previously in a speech in Munich, he stated "My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them, and who was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison".

Charity
While the Church does do some good work, it is primarily a business. Its senior members live in extreme opulence in Vatican City. Within Italy alone the Church owns over 110,000 buildings (about 20% of all buildings in Italy), many commercial, including hotels, restaurants and sports centers. In addition, the vast majority of the Churches resources go to spreading its message, not to providing charity.

Education
You say that "the Catholic Church is the biggest operator of private schools in the United States". Incidentally, these schools just happen to be where much of the child abuse takes place (ironic given that they teach abstinence only). Since the government subsidizes these schools, and the rest is paid for through public donations, these children could instead go to a public school at no greater cost, and probably be better off.

In summary I believe that the Catholic Church is detrimental to society, and I would urge you to vote Pro if you agree. Thank you.

Sources
http://tech.mit.edu...
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
GarretKadeDupre

Con

The Crusades

My opponent argues the Crusades were harmful to society. This is not true.

In 1095 the Byzantine emperor asked Pope Urban II for military assistance against Muslim aggression. (1) Jerusalem had been overrun by Turks and 3,000 Christians had been massacred. (2) The Crusades were initiated in response. There is nothing wrong with being granted indulgences in exchange for sacrificing your life for a just cause; in this case, reclaiming land stolen by the Saracens.

Contraception

My opponent falsely claims that "The Church continues to maintain that not only is all abortion wrong [...]" In reality, the Catholic Church permits abortion if the mother's life requires it, and the death of the baby is not intended as an ends or means.

Pro makes another false claim by saying the Catholic Church "rules that all birth control is wrong." The Catholic Church permits birth control based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods. (3) This natural form of birth control, permitted by the Church, is equally effective as artificial forms of birth control. (4)

Child Abuse

My opponent puts the spotlight on cases of sexual abuse by Catholic priests so as to portray the Catholic Church as harmful. This is misleading and deceptive. According to Thomas Plante, PhD, Catholic priests are no more likely to molest children than the rest of the population. (5)

Allow me to quote Dr. Philip Jenkins, Distinguished Professor of History and Religious Studies at Penn State:

"My research of cases over the past 20 years indicates no evidence whatever that Catholic [...] clergy are any more likely to be involved in misconduct or abuse than [..] nonclergy." (7) (emphasis mine)

The Catholic Church is not harmful to society.

Thank you for this debate.

(1) http://www.fordham.edu...
(2) http://www.middle-ages.org.uk...
(3) http://www.vatican.va...
(4) European Society for Human Reproduction and Embryology. "Natural Family Planning Method As Effective As Contraceptive Pill, New Research Finds." ScienceDaily, 21 Feb. 2007. Web. 25 Feb. 2013.
(5) http://www.psychologytoday.com...
(6) http://www.jjay.cuny.edu...
(7) http://old.post-gazette.com...
Debate Round No. 3
21 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by devient.genie 3 years ago
devient.genie
The destructive nature of religion because of its inherent divisiveness, is also a mental poison that causes an atrophy to free thought.

Free thought led to scientific understandings of the universe and life. Restricting scientific free thought in school and government is only possible when the arrogance of religion sticks its nose where it doesn't belong.

Therefore, supporting religion is supporting its inherent weaknesses, and thus, draining Mankind with a ball and chain we drag on our way to a higher standard :)

The religious elite have used their filthy beliefs from thousands of years ago to promote slavery, racism and a homophobic attitude. This is all done while the religious loud mouth champions are hiding behind a shield of humility that protects them from criticism :)

Kicking that shield aside and exposing the soft intellect behind it, is just the splashing glass of ice water needed to wake up the world to the childish, disgusting, destructive, divisive, immoral, and unnecessary nature of religion, especially in the 21st Century :)

Lets get back to this Higgs Boson and let kissing girls get married in a court of law, and go night night with your holy binky America :)
Posted by malcolmxy 3 years ago
malcolmxy
Your ideas about what I believe and don't are as ridiculous as your stance that the church only promulgates evil.
Posted by devient.genie 3 years ago
devient.genie
malcominthemiddle,

"A catholic priest figured out the elliptical orbit of the planets around the sun that Galileo didn't."

Translation: "I killed a ground squirrel with a stick once"

Thanks for the kick start ancient humans who all assumed a god was part of nature, the big kids got this now.

A word to outdated human minds:

Take your aryan nation black people denial wishes and your christian nation gay people denial wishes and go play in traffic :)
Posted by malcolmxy 3 years ago
malcolmxy
congrats on the win garrett
Posted by devient.genie 4 years ago
devient.genie
Is there any organization, social club or group of people with as much scandal, lies, deception, and utter nonsense that catholics belong too, besides their church?

Is catholicism the only filth in their life?

Take stock of your friends catholics, do any of your other affiliations have the shady record your church does? Then why are you with the church?

Brainwashing, its whats for dinner :)
Posted by smzstefan 4 years ago
smzstefan
They were the record keepers of history after they burned down the libraries of Alexandria... few historical events inspire such contempt for a specific group of people...
Posted by malcolmxy 4 years ago
malcolmxy
A catholic priest figured out the elliptical orbit of the planets around the sun that Galileo didn't.

Nuns were the record keepers of history.

The church did a lot of bad, but it didn't do all bad.
Posted by smzstefan 4 years ago
smzstefan
Organized religion is an obsolete crowd control technology
Posted by smzstefan 4 years ago
smzstefan
I cannot believe Galileo was used as a supporting point for the Con team. LOL! The guy was beheaded by the church for his SCIENTIFIC CLAIMS!!!! BAHAHHAHAHA you bible thumpers are all closed minded to science where science is not closed minded to religion... fools
Posted by qopel 4 years ago
qopel
:Anything good a Christian can do, an Atheist can do better. It's a fact, not a vote bomb.
13 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Legitdebater 3 years ago
Legitdebater
OrwellGarretKadeDupreTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con failed to point out why the world would be better off without the Catholic Church, he just proved that the Catholic Church wasn't all bad. I think Pro could have made a stronger argument, and used more examples. Thanks for keeping it simplistic!
Vote Placed by teddy2013 4 years ago
teddy2013
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Reasons for voting decision: The only misspelling I saw was from Pro (organisations). I agree with Pro as it relates to condom use and AIDS,however Cons arguments for the good done were more diverse and convincing. Both conducted themselves well.
Vote Placed by medic0506 4 years ago
medic0506
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Reasons for voting decision: Con adequately defended against the concerns that were registered by Pro, even showing how they were false or misleading. In addition, Con showed instances of how people around the world benefit, in many different ways, from the existence of the Church. This was a tough resolution for anyone taking the Pro position.
Vote Placed by FritzStammberger 4 years ago
FritzStammberger
OrwellGarretKadeDupreTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I totally disagreed with con before the debate but he made some convincing arguments, I guess the catholic church isn't ALL evil. but rather probably just has a rotten core. Many christians believe the catholic church to be the whore of babylon as spoken of in the book of revelation. evil or not, it was the hospital fact that got me. 17% of the united states hospitals!! that's impressive!
Vote Placed by likespeace 4 years ago
likespeace
OrwellGarretKadeDupreTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I commend both sides for an easy-to-read debate. Pro made three arguments against the church--the crusades, contraception, and child abuse. Con made three arguments for the church--the holocaust, charity, and education. Pro pointed out the church could do more, but that doesn't negate that what they did was beneficial. Con justified the crusades, argued abuse by clergy was no more likely, and that the Catholic church advocated some forms of birth control and abortion. This completely undermined at least the first and third arguments against the church. I think Pro could have made a stronger case. Of the cases made, Garrett's was strongest.
Vote Placed by malcolmxy 4 years ago
malcolmxy
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Reasons for voting decision: countering TheWalkingDrums. Despite disagreeing with Con's position, when reviewing the two arguments, Con made the much stronger case and won the debate, regardless of what I think. If Pro had put forth a stronger case, or revised the debate premise, I would have voted for Pro, but Con won, and he doesn't deserve to be vote bombed for it.
Vote Placed by TheWalkingDrums 4 years ago
TheWalkingDrums
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Reasons for voting decision: Countering bias judgement.
Vote Placed by TrasguTravieso 4 years ago
TrasguTravieso
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Reasons for voting decision: Con presented a positive case which Pro tried unsuccessfully to dismantle, he then presented a strong case against Pro's original litany. Yay Con.
Vote Placed by AlwaysMoreThanYou 4 years ago
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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Reasons for voting decision: Sources to Con because he used them to support his arguments slightly better, and Pro used Wikipedia a lot. Arguments to Con because I thought Con pretty much negated all of Pro's arguments, whereas Pro only reliably negated possibly one of Con's points.
Vote Placed by Nur-Ab-Sal 4 years ago
Nur-Ab-Sal
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Reasons for voting decision: I wish I could *actually* vote on this, to show my respect for Con's arguments, but I'm stuck countering qopel.