The Instigator
PikaNAW
Pro (for)
The Contender
mandorangerwolf777
Con (against)

The Catholic Church is the one true church of the Christian faith

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Debate Round Forfeited
mandorangerwolf777 has forfeited round #4.
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/1/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 11 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 414 times Debate No: 102330
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (17)
Votes (0)

 

PikaNAW

Pro

So, this is a redo of our debate due to the fact Con was unable to post his argument. Rules and format are the same, so opening arguments will be posted in the second round.
mandorangerwolf777

Con

Yep I'm here. Thanks so much for starting over.
Debate Round No. 1
PikaNAW

Pro

So, my opening argument will mostly be the fact that the Catholic Church is the original faith. Let's take a look at the Gospel of Matthew.
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Matthew 16: 13-19
13: When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, He questioned His disciples: "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"

14: They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

15: "But what about you?" Jesus asked. "Who do you say I am?"

16: Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

17: Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18: And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
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So, this is when Catholics say the Catholic Church was founded, with St. Peter as our first Pope. So now, let's go back through time from the present day.

Please open this site before looking at the next part of my argument. http://www.religioustolerance.org......

So, if we take a look at this chart, we can see most of the major denominations listed by date founded. If you look at the very top of the chart, you will see both Catholicism and Orthodox, who we do not consider Protestant. Catholicism is the only denomination that has not "split" from any other denomination, it is the original faith. It is the same faith as the Apostles and the Church Fathers.
mandorangerwolf777

Con

I believe that the true church is the family of believers who believe that Jesus is the Christ, who died and was raised to life for our sins. The church is not mutually exclusive.

You say that the Catholic church is the one true church. Romans 16:17 says "I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them."

According to Wikipedia, (https://en.wikipedia.org..., if you want more sources it's always good at sourcing its material)
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The ecclesiastical differences and theological disputes between the Greek East and Latin West pre-dated the formal rupture that occurred in 1054.[2][3][4] Prominent among these were the issues of the source of the Holy Spirit, whether leavened or unleavened bread should be used in the Eucharist,[a] the Bishop of Rome's claim to universal jurisdiction, and the place of the See of Constantinople in relation to the Pentarchy.[8]
In 1053, the first step was taken in the process which led to formal schism: the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople Michael I Cerularius ordered the closure of all Latin churches in Constantinople, in response to the Greek churches in southern Italy having been forced either to close or to conform to Latin practices.[9][10][11] According to the historian J. B. Bury, Cerularius's purpose in closing the Latin churches was "to cut short any attempt at conciliation".[11]
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So from what I see, the church split because some people though that what the church was teaching contradicted what they learned themselves. In Romans, we see that this is perfectly valid.

I'm not saying one branch of the church is better than another.
1 Corinthians 1:12-13-
"What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephasb "; still another, "I follow Christ."

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul"?

So the church should not be defined by what human creation we are a part of. It should be defined as the body of people who follow Christ. As such, there is one true church. But it is a body of people, unified in Christ, not a specific denomination.
Debate Round No. 2
PikaNAW

Pro

So, my opponent has pointed out several good points, such as the Great Schism. But, he says nothing that actually disproves the Catholic Church is the one true church. So, let's analyze his argument.
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"I believe that the true church is the family of believers who believe that Jesus is the Christ, who died and was raised to life for our sins. The church is not mutually exclusive."

So, this does nothing about Catholicism being false because Catholics believe the Catholic Church is "the family of believers who believe that Jesus is the Christ, who died and was raised to life for our sins." Now, I am not entirely sure about what you mean by, "The church is not mutually exclusive." If you wish to expound on that, be my guest.
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"You say that the Catholic church is the one true church. Romans 16:17 says "I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them."

Again, my opponents use of St. Paul's writings does nothing to contradict my point. I pointed out that the Catholic Church, (along with Eastern Orthodox, since we do not consider them Protestant) never split off from any Christian faith.
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https://en.wikipedia.org...

Now, I actually did not know about this fact, but here is my interpretation of it. So, yes, Greek churches were shut down in Italy, but I believe for good reasons.

1) If anything, it was the Greek Orthodox setting up obstacles, because they were changing the original beliefs.
2) It was Italy, so they would want to do thing in the vernacular.

This was a rush argument, so I will cover the rest of it in my next one.
mandorangerwolf777

Con

There might be a small misunderstanding on what I am trying to show.
I am not saying that the Catholic Church is not part of the true Church, I am saying it is not the ONE TRUE church.

My opponents main argument is that the Catholic church was the first church. I won't contest this point, since I don't think it is very relevant.

Humans are not perfect. The Catholic church is not perfect. No church is perfect, really.
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Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so. (Acts 17:11)
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The Bereans were commended for searching the scriptures to make sure what Paul was preaching was true. Today, people are encouraged to do the same thing. People leave churches when they believe that the church is teaching something or doing something they don't think is biblical.
Because of this, I don't believe that there is any reason why we should consider one denomination, in this case the Catholic church, as the one true church of Christ. God gave us a list of rules and examples in the Bible, and it is our duty to follow those as best we can. If my opponent believes that the Catholic church follows these rules best, good for him. Everyone who truly believes in the Bible and Jesus is part of Christ's church.
It isn't just limited to the Catholics.
Debate Round No. 3
PikaNAW

Pro

Ok, so let me clear something up, I am not say other denominations are bad. I know a lot of good people that are from other denominations. What I am trying to prove is that the Catholic Church is the official church that Christ made through the Apostles. And of course the Catholic Church or any church isn't perfect, for "all have fallen short." But the thing is though, Christ intended for the church to be one, unified body.
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1 Corinthians 1:12-13-
"What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."

My opponent intended to use this verse from St. Paul to back up his claim that the true church is the people who believe in Christ, and while that is true, I think it more supports my claim. Paul here is talking about the believers following separate leaders, and he asks, "Is Christ divided?" No, Christ is not divided, and that is why there has to be one single true church, to stop people from splitting from the foundational beliefs. And as for people leaving the church because they believe something is "unbiblical", that is exactly why we have the church, to show us why we believe it is biblical. If we have conflicting ideas and beliefs, how can all denominations be one true faith?
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Let me use an example. Baptists and Catholics. Now, Catholics have what we call the, "7 Sacraments." I'm not going to list them, but two of them are Baptism and the Eucharist. Now, Catholics believe you must be baptized in order to be saved from Original Sin, (though there are some exceptions) and that the Eucharistic Bread and Wine is truly consecrated and transformed into the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus, just as the early Church and Apostles believed. Now, Baptists do not believe in either of these, though. So, if both groups of believers are both part of the one true church of believers, then that would mean both beliefs are equally true. But, using common sense and reasoning, we know that both cannot be true because they contradict one another. So, either one is right and the other is wrong, or both are wrong, but they cannot both be equally true.
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Again, I am not of of those people that think, "If you aren't my denomination, you are a bad person." All I am working to prove is that the Catholic Church is the official church that Christ set up here on Earth to carry on his teaching. As I pointed out in my opening argument, all other churches split from the Catholic church and were set up by MEN, but the Catholic Church was set up by Christ Jesus HIMSELF.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mandorangerwolf777 11 months ago
mandorangerwolf777
okay....
the internet was acting up and was not posting it...
so now there is a lot...
whoops.
Posted by mandorangerwolf777 11 months ago
mandorangerwolf777
Again, super sorry I missed the deadline. School has been a nightmare recently.

Here is my post:

I am not saying the Catholic church is bad either. Nor am I saying every church is correct in everything it does. However, the Catholic church being the first church does not make it the one true church. If it does, then that would exclude anyone who does not agree with some of the things the Catholics do.
For instance, my mother does not think we should have written prayers read during church services. This is not necessarily wrong or right, but it is something she believes lessens her relationship with God.

So basically, the fact that the Catholics were the first church created does not mean that other churches, who are not Catholic, have to be affiliated with the Catholics to be part of the true church. There are probably tons of people in poorer countries who are part of the true church without even having heard of the Catholics.

There is a true church, yes. But, as I mentioned earlier, it is not confined by a certain denomination. We are related by the blood of Christ, and our belief in him as our savior.
So we cannot say that the Catholics are the true church, because that is severely limiting the body of believers as it is today.
Posted by mandorangerwolf777 11 months ago
mandorangerwolf777
Again, super sorry I missed the deadline. School has been a nightmare recently.

Here is my post:

I am not saying the Catholic church is bad either. Nor am I saying every church is correct in everything it does. However, the Catholic church being the first church does not make it the one true church. If it does, then that would exclude anyone who does not agree with some of the things the Catholics do.
For instance, my mother does not think we should have written prayers read during church services. This is not necessarily wrong or right, but it is something she believes lessens her relationship with God.

So basically, the fact that the Catholics were the first church created does not mean that other churches, who are not Catholic, have to be affiliated with the Catholics to be part of the true church. There are probably tons of people in poorer countries who are part of the true church without even having heard of the Catholics.

There is a true church, yes. But, as I mentioned earlier, it is not confined by a certain denomination. We are related by the blood of Christ, and our belief in him as our savior.
So we cannot say that the Catholics are the true church, because that is severely limiting the body of believers as it is today.
Posted by mandorangerwolf777 11 months ago
mandorangerwolf777
Again, super sorry I missed the deadline. School has been a nightmare recently.

Here is my post:

I am not saying the Catholic church is bad either. Nor am I saying every church is correct in everything it does. However, the Catholic church being the first church does not make it the one true church. If it does, then that would exclude anyone who does not agree with some of the things the Catholics do.
For instance, my mother does not think we should have written prayers read during church services. This is not necessarily wrong or right, but it is something she believes lessens her relationship with God.

So basically, the fact that the Catholics were the first church created does not mean that other churches, who are not Catholic, have to be affiliated with the Catholics to be part of the true church. There are probably tons of people in poorer countries who are part of the true church without even having heard of the Catholics.

There is a true church, yes. But, as I mentioned earlier, it is not confined by a certain denomination. We are related by the blood of Christ, and our belief in him as our savior.
So we cannot say that the Catholics are the true church, because that is severely limiting the body of believers as it is today.
Posted by mandorangerwolf777 11 months ago
mandorangerwolf777
Again, super sorry I missed the deadline. School has been a nightmare recently.

Here is my post:

I am not saying the Catholic church is bad either. Nor am I saying every church is correct in everything it does. However, the Catholic church being the first church does not make it the one true church. If it does, then that would exclude anyone who does not agree with some of the things the Catholics do.
For instance, my mother does not think we should have written prayers read during church services. This is not necessarily wrong or right, but it is something she believes lessens her relationship with God.

So basically, the fact that the Catholics were the first church created does not mean that other churches, who are not Catholic, have to be affiliated with the Catholics to be part of the true church. There are probably tons of people in poorer countries who are part of the true church without even having heard of the Catholics.

There is a true church, yes. But, as I mentioned earlier, it is not confined by a certain denomination. We are related by the blood of Christ, and our belief in him as our savior.
So we cannot say that the Catholics are the true church, because that is severely limiting the body of believers as it is today.
Posted by mandorangerwolf777 11 months ago
mandorangerwolf777
Again, super sorry I missed the deadline. School has been a nightmare recently.

Here is my post:

I am not saying the Catholic church is bad either. Nor am I saying every church is correct in everything it does. However, the Catholic church being the first church does not make it the one true church. If it does, then that would exclude anyone who does not agree with some of the things the Catholics do.
For instance, my mother does not think we should have written prayers read during church services. This is not necessarily wrong or right, but it is something she believes lessens her relationship with God.

So basically, the fact that the Catholics were the first church created does not mean that other churches, who are not Catholic, have to be affiliated with the Catholics to be part of the true church. There are probably tons of people in poorer countries who are part of the true church without even having heard of the Catholics.

There is a true church, yes. But, as I mentioned earlier, it is not confined by a certain denomination. We are related by the blood of Christ, and our belief in him as our savior.
So we cannot say that the Catholics are the true church, because that is severely limiting the body of believers as it is today.
Posted by mandorangerwolf777 11 months ago
mandorangerwolf777
Again, super sorry I missed the deadline. School has been a nightmare recently.

Here is my post:

I am not saying the Catholic church is bad either. Nor am I saying every church is correct in everything it does. However, the Catholic church being the first church does not make it the one true church. If it does, then that would exclude anyone who does not agree with some of the things the Catholics do.
For instance, my mother does not think we should have written prayers read during church services. This is not necessarily wrong or right, but it is something she believes lessens her relationship with God.

So basically, the fact that the Catholics were the first church created does not mean that other churches, who are not Catholic, have to be affiliated with the Catholics to be part of the true church. There are probably tons of people in poorer countries who are part of the true church without even having heard of the Catholics.

There is a true church, yes. But, as I mentioned earlier, it is not confined by a certain denomination. We are related by the blood of Christ, and our belief in him as our savior.
So we cannot say that the Catholics are the true church, because that is severely limiting the body of believers as it is today.
Posted by mandorangerwolf777 11 months ago
mandorangerwolf777
Again, super sorry I missed the deadline. School has been a nightmare recently.

Here is my post:

I am not saying the Catholic church is bad either. Nor am I saying every church is correct in everything it does. However, the Catholic church being the first church does not make it the one true church. If it does, then that would exclude anyone who does not agree with some of the things the Catholics do.
For instance, my mother does not think we should have written prayers read during church services. This is not necessarily wrong or right, but it is something she believes lessens her relationship with God.

So basically, the fact that the Catholics were the first church created does not mean that other churches, who are not Catholic, have to be affiliated with the Catholics to be part of the true church. There are probably tons of people in poorer countries who are part of the true church without even having heard of the Catholics.

There is a true church, yes. But, as I mentioned earlier, it is not confined by a certain denomination. We are related by the blood of Christ, and our belief in him as our savior.
So we cannot say that the Catholics are the true church, because that is severely limiting the body of believers as it is today.
Posted by mandorangerwolf777 11 months ago
mandorangerwolf777
Again, super sorry I missed the deadline. School has been a nightmare recently.

Here is my post:

I am not saying the Catholic church is bad either. Nor am I saying every church is correct in everything it does. However, the Catholic church being the first church does not make it the one true church. If it does, then that would exclude anyone who does not agree with some of the things the Catholics do.
For instance, my mother does not think we should have written prayers read during church services. This is not necessarily wrong or right, but it is something she believes lessens her relationship with God.

So basically, the fact that the Catholics were the first church created does not mean that other churches, who are not Catholic, have to be affiliated with the Catholics to be part of the true church. There are probably tons of people in poorer countries who are part of the true church without even having heard of the Catholics.

There is a true church, yes. But, as I mentioned earlier, it is not confined by a certain denomination. We are related by the blood of Christ, and our belief in him as our savior.
So we cannot say that the Catholics are the true church, because that is severely limiting the body of believers as it is today.
Posted by mandorangerwolf777 11 months ago
mandorangerwolf777
Again, super sorry I missed the deadline. School has been a nightmare recently.

Here is my post:

I am not saying the Catholic church is bad either. Nor am I saying every church is correct in everything it does. However, the Catholic church being the first church does not make it the one true church. If it does, then that would exclude anyone who does not agree with some of the things the Catholics do.
For instance, my mother does not think we should have written prayers read during church services. This is not necessarily wrong or right, but it is something she believes lessens her relationship with God.

So basically, the fact that the Catholics were the first church created does not mean that other churches, who are not Catholic, have to be affiliated with the Catholics to be part of the true church. There are probably tons of people in poorer countries who are part of the true church without even having heard of the Catholics.

There is a true church, yes. But, as I mentioned earlier, it is not confined by a certain denomination. We are related by the blood of Christ, and our belief in him as our savior.
So we cannot say that the Catholics are the true church, because that is severely limiting the body of believers as it is today.
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