The Instigator
AlternativeDavid
Pro (for)
Winning
14 Points
The Contender
telisw37
Con (against)
Losing
7 Points

The Christian God As Described In the Bible Does Not Exist

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
AlternativeDavid
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/15/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,157 times Debate No: 60523
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (14)
Votes (4)

 

AlternativeDavid

Pro

Rules

Round 1: No arguments. Just acceptance.
Round 2/3: Arguments and rebuttals
Round 4: Closing statements. No new arguments

No "god of the gaps" arguments allowed.

Any violation of the rules results in conduct points going to the other debater. Mutual violation results in a tie for conduct.

Definitions:

God of the gaps: If science can't explain it, god did it.
Exist: To be real

I look forward to a good debate. If you cannot accept it, it is because you have not completed a sufficient amount of debates.

I argue that the Christian God as described in the Bible does not exist.
telisw37

Con

I accept. Thank you for this opportunity,
Debate Round No. 1
AlternativeDavid

Pro

The God of the Bible is defined as: Omnipotent and omniscient (Psalm 147:5), omnibenevolent (Psalm 145:17), and omnipresent (Proverbs 15:3).

Let me begin with a list of paradoxes.

1) If God is all powerful (omnipotent) then he can create an object he cannot lift. However, at the same time, if he cannot lift the object he is not omnipotent. Conclusion: The God of the Bible does not exist.

2) Humans have free will. Or do we? An all knowing (omniscient) God would know the future. This means that he knows what we are going to do before we do the action. Therefore we do not have free will. Conclusion: The God of the Bible does not exist.

3) If god is omnipresent (everywhere at once), then can observe everything at all times. This means that God can observe all quantum superpositions. Observation collapses quantum superpositions. Therefore God would collapse all quantum superpositions. All quantum superpositions have not collapsed. Conclusion: The God of the Bible does not exist.

4) If God is omnibenevolent (all loving), He cannot commit a mean act. The Bible states that God did commit a mean act. Drowning millions of people in the flood was pretty mean. Conclusion: The God of the Bible does not exist.

5) "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26)

If all things are possible with God, then there is a possibility of there being no God. If God exists it means he might not exist. Conclusion: The God of the Bible does not exist.

6) God must have had a creator. He couldn't have just come into existence. If God needs a creator and does not have one then well... The God of the Bible does not exist.

7) God cannot be omnipotent and omniscient. If he is omniscient then he knows what is going to happen. Thus he cannot be omnipotent because he is powerless to change the future, because it is predetermined. Conclusion: The God of the Bible does not exist.

Scientific Proof:

Big Bang: All of the galaxies in the universe are moving away from an epicenter. This tells us that billions of years ago, everything was in that very spot. [1]. This directly contradicts Genesis 1:1 when it was written that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Evidently he did not. The earth was created billions of years after the first things were created. [2]

Sex: Adam and Even could not have had children. Eve was created from Adam's rib which means that they have the exact same DNA. DNA is extremely important in reproduction. If there is not enough genetic variation the child of the parents will be severely deformed. [3]. Inbreeding also raises the problem that if a disease comes, everyone will die. If people are too similar, instead of a few dying, everybody dies. This is why asexual reproduction can end very badly for plant species.

Marriage in Genesis: Genesis 4:17 claims that Cain found a wife. Where did Cain find a wife? Adam, Eve, Cain, Seth, and a few other siblings were the original family. Cain must have married his sister, and this just brings me back to my previous point about sex.

In conclusion: God as defined in the Bible cannot exist because his very existence contradicts itself. Not only that, but science had debunked many (if not all) parts of Genesis.

[1] http://www.schoolsobservatory.org.uk...
[2] http://www.space.com...
[3] http://genetics.thetech.org...
telisw37

Con

telisw37 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
AlternativeDavid

Pro

Con has forfeited a round, I extend all arguments.
telisw37

Con

I am sorry if for the forfeit I did not check the debating time limit.
I refute my opponent's claim that the bible say's God is omnipotent, omniscient, omibenevolent or omnipresent, facts are those words are not even in the bible.

1. Psalms 147:5 clearly say's God's understanding is infinite. Facts are the bible proves it came from God because of prophecy, writing the future over 4000 years ago. There is something that God can not do. Go back on His Word! So there is the item God can not lift.

2.Psalms 145:17 does not say God is omnibenevolent! Facts are God hates, kills, and is jealous as well.

Psalm 145:17King James Version (KJV)

17 The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

Deuteronomy 16:22
Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the Lord thy God hateth.
Exodus 20:5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Genesis 18:32
And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
Exodus 15:9
The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.
3. The bible says the eyes of the Lord are in everyplace means simply that God's has many angels who's eyes are everywhere. So my opponent is wrong about God three times over.
God does not want to change the future until He rules this earth for 1000 years.
Numbers 23:20
Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it.

4.How did God know Damascus would be destroyed in a 65 year period? Israel regathered as a nation 1948 do the math.
Isaiah 7:8
For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

5. How did God fortell Gaza being destroyed.
Amos 1:6
Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Gaza, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they carried away captive the whole captivity, to deliver them up to Edom:
Zechariah 9:5
Ashkelon shall see it, and fear; Gaza also shall see it, and be very sorrowful, and Ekron; for her expectation shall be ashamed; and the king shall perish from Gaza, and Ashkelon shall not be inhabited.
6. The bible say's parts of Israel will be destroyed along with Gaza. These nations named in this verse, are the location of Israel's Iron Domes. Will Israel be attacked by Islam who want to push them into the sea?
Zechariah 14 King James Version (KJV)

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zephaniah 2:4
For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up.
Zechariah 9:5
Ashkelon shall see it, and fear; Gaza also shall see it, and be very sorrowful, and Ekron; for her expectation shall be ashamed; and the king shall perish from Gaza, and Ashkelon shall not be inhabited.

7. Cain went to the land of Nod and took a wife. Adam and Eve were not the first people on earth. The bible say's God created people in Genesis 1:26 and Adam was formed in Genesis 2:7 the man to til the ground. Notice the named nations in Genesis 2.
Notice the earth is finished and the people=hosts are complete then God rested.
Genesis 4:16
And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
Genesis 2 King James Version (KJV)

2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

Notice the named nations. So God created the land of Nod as well. My opponent is suggesting that God made gold for cows and pearls for pigs. Notice the river that flowed out of Eden and the the things outside Eden the Garden of God.

10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.


God given common sense says Assyria was made for Assyrians and Ethiopia for black people.

Jeremiah 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.


8. The bible and science agree, the earth is millions of years old. The bible is a record of the second earth age, while declaring the future. The third earth age where Christ rules this earth. Science at one time thought the earth was flat, God knew better.
Isaiah 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

9. My opponent seems to be repeating Christian dogma. Anyone who has actually read the bible with understanding, would know that Christians do not follow God or the bible.

Jeremiah 4:22

For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.




Debate Round No. 3
AlternativeDavid

Pro

Due to the fact that I only had one round to make an argument, and no rounds to refute Con's claims, I will take this round to do my refuting. I won't be annoyed if voters give a conduct point to Con for this, but I feel as though I should have a round for rebuttals.

"facts are those words are not even in the bible."

If I say "potatoes have their roots below the surface", you can infer that that means that potatoes have their roots underground. It does not have to be explicitly worded to say that God is omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent.

1) "Psalms 147:5 clearly say's God's understanding is infinite. Facts are the bible proves it came from God because of prophecy, writing the future over 4000 years ago. There is something that God can not do. Go back on His Word! So there is the item God can not lift."

Con has provided no proof that God cannot go back on his word. "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" -Christopher Hitchens

2) "Psalms 145:17 does not say God is omnibenevolent! Facts are God hates, kills, and is jealous as well."

The argument presented here does nothing but shows how contradictory the Bible is. Is God good? Or is God evil? I can't tell by reading the Bible.

3) "The bible says the eyes of the Lord are in everyplace means simply that God's has many angels who's eyes are everywhere. So my opponent is wrong about God three times over"

This argument doesn't change the fact that the superpositions are always being observed. All it does is change who is observing them. Con's argument does nothing to my claim.

4) "How did God know Damascus would be destroyed in a 65 year period? Israel regathered as a nation 1948 do the math."

Where is Israel mentioned in Isaiah 7:8?

5) "How did God fortell Gaza being destroyed."

There has been war in the Middle East for thousands of years. Of course Gaza would eventually be destroyed.

6) "The bible say's parts of Israel will be destroyed along with Gaza. These nations named in this verse, are the location of Israel's Iron Domes. Will Israel be attacked by Islam who want to push them into the sea?"

This isn't exactly a novel idea. Who in the Middle East doesn't want to push Israel into the sea?

7) "Cain went to the land of Nod and took a wife. Adam and Eve were not the first people on earth. The bible say's God created people in Genesis 1:26 and Adam was formed in Genesis 2:7 the man to til the ground. Notice the named nations in Genesis 2."

This doesn't disprove my point about Adam and Eve not being able to have children.

"And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

So the most powerful being in the universe had to rest after a six day work week?

8) "The bible and science agree, the earth is millions of years old. The bible is a record of the second earth age, while declaring the future. The third earth age where Christ rules this earth. Science at one time thought the earth was flat, God knew better."

First off, science never thought the earth was flat. Science cannot have an opinion. Science is just the study of everything around us. Nobody would say that math once thought something.

Also, Con provided no evidence that any scientist ever thought the earth was flat.

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth"

CIRCLES ARE FLAT

The earth is a sphere, not a circle. I guess God didn't take basic geometry in school. Therefore, if God is real, he was wrong. This negates his omniscience. Now we have learned that god is neither omnipotent, omnibenevolent, nor omniscient. What exactly are you worshiping such a weak being for?


"My opponent seems to be repeating Christian dogma. Anyone who has actually read the bible with understanding, would know that Christians do not follow God or the bible."

From my understanding, Christians follow Christ. Christ = God. Therefore Christians follow God. If you are a Christian that does not believe Jesus is God, this religion suits you better: (http://en.wikipedia.org...).

Con has dropped a lot of of my arguments: Big bang, Incest, Humans Not Having Free Will, God's Creator.

Con also "disproved" some my paradoxes by claiming God is neither omniscient, omnipotent, nor omnibenevolent. If God is none of these three, then there is no reason to believe that he exists.
telisw37

Con

I like to thank my opponent for this debate. I suggest he at least reads the bible before disputing its contents. By misquoting scripture he has confused himself. The God of the bible does exist, however Christians and my opponent do not understand the bible they are reading from, this debate has proven that! Ignorance is the cause if the confusion about God. I have totally refuted the false claim that the God of the bible is everywhere at the same time. The bible declares that Christ the God of the bible will rein and rule from Jerusalem which is one single location. Or the fact that only my opponent and false teachers claim God is omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent. These things are not written in scripture. Christ's own's word refute my opponent's entire arguement. Notice the one actual location given is Zion which is in Jerusalem.
Psalm 2 King James Version (KJV)

2 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Matthew 10:34King James Version (KJV)
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Let us continue with my opponent's potato example.

1.God given common sense knows that in order to harvest potatoes, one must dig them up, so your statement is incorrect because you lead the reader to assume the roots and the potatoes are not both underground. Because all plant have their roots underground, but most fruits & vegatables are found on the outside of a tree, plant, or vine, not underground. So I refute your wrong analogy. I have included a link and picture to educate you on potato-horticulture. If the potatoes themselves reach the surface and sunlight they become bitter.
My opponent posted:
"If I say "potatoes have their roots below the surface", you can infer that that means that potatoes have their roots underground. It does not have to be explicitly worded to say that God is omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent."




















http://www.google.com...

2. Evidence, dismissed? I say wrong again! If the bible is false where did the Hebrew/ Jewish people come from? Next there is the nation of Israel the wailing wall, and the Holy Sites in Israel, such as the tomb of David, and the actual Throne of David. The Queen of England has the actual chair David sat on, and she claims to be a direct descendant of Adam, Abraham, David, and Mary the Virgin Mother of Christ Himself.











3. Facts are God is not a man that should need to lie. The bible simple, its about one man, Christ/God/Adam, His Family,= Israel and their impact on the earth past present nad future. Evil and sin entered through Adam/Christ who returned via direct descendant daughter of Eve,to fulfill the curse God put on the first Adam.(Luke 3:38King James Version (KJV)38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.)
So I agree that incest was used to protect the bloodline of God. Yes Adam and Eve were brother and sister, exactly what the bible declares! Song of Songs 4:9,10 second witness Song of Songs 5:1 read it and weep! Please give chapter and verse that say Adam and Eve, could not have children! Wrong again! Facts are inbreeding is common place with the current Royals and rich Elite today. Please do not try to assert that Solomon married one of his sisters. Not biblical at all.

Song of Songs 4:9,10

9 Thou hast ravished my heart, my sister, my spouse; thou hast ravished my heart with one of thine eyes, with one chain of thy neck.

10 How fair is thy love, my sister, my spouse! how much better is thy love than wine! and the smell of thine ointments than all spices!

Song of Songs 5:1,2

5 I am come into my garden, my sister, my spouse: I have gathered my myrrh with my spice; I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey; I have drunk my wine with my milk: eat, O friends; drink, yea, drink abundantly, O beloved.
2 I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night.



4. The eyes of The Lord can simply be sophisticated surveillance . Example I work in a large building that has sixty levels hundreds of stairs, exits, doors, hallways and elevators. All totally covered by one guard and a wall full of monitors. God may have put some sort of system that reports directly to Him the actions of all men.



5. My opponent's novel idea is wrong again! Israel just got their Nation back after over 1000 years of living elsewhere, they are the only nation to regain control of a loss state. 1948 God regathered Israel as a nation declared in scripture. My opponent can not say that this verse was refers to history. Does bears have a history of eating straw?
Isaiah 11:6-14King James Version (KJV)

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.


6. I refute my opponent's claim that Gaza was fighting anyone during the times scriptures was written. Gaza did have a valuable sea port. Acts declares That Gaza was a desert. Not a thriving city. Acts 8:26
Acts 8:26King James Version (KJV)

Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

Debate Round No. 4
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by telisw37 2 years ago
telisw37
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Posted by AlternativeDavid 2 years ago
AlternativeDavid
Domr, you did not clarify how my argument fell apart, so I consider this to be a vote bomb.
Posted by BrutalB 2 years ago
BrutalB
Can i throw in my 2 cents and rebuttals to this 7 claims of yours on here? Would the fellow debaters and yourself allow that?
Posted by AlternativeDavid 2 years ago
AlternativeDavid
It seems that we'll have to agree to disagree for now, then.
Posted by BrutalB 2 years ago
BrutalB
i did not jump on that, i simply was highlighting the double standard here
Posted by AlternativeDavid 2 years ago
AlternativeDavid
"Wouldn't that be a "Atheists of Gaps" then? That statement is a cop out, Why?"

I wrote that on purpose. You are okay with God of the gaps, but the second I use a science of the gaps argument you jump on it.
Posted by BrutalB 2 years ago
BrutalB
Just from common sense one can see the existence of God. It's the fact that most people choose not to because they don't want it to. Look at the extreme complexity of life, the universe, the world, even the cell. Something that fine tuned wasn't intelligently designed? To say "no" to that takes an IMMENSE amount of faith
Posted by BrutalB 2 years ago
BrutalB
"We will eventually be able to disprove everything relating to God."
Wouldn't that be a "Atheists of Gaps" then? That statement is a cop out, WHy? because it goes against your assumption. That's not even an argument. It's not acknowledging a very logical answer because there is no valid rebuttal to it. There's obvious empirical evidence of God, stood the test of time for 2000yrs. It's a slippery slope my friend, almost just like procrastination, you have an exam next week and you have you're own study sheet right in front of you. But you choose not to look at them because you think , well maybe my friend will have better answers that i can get tomorrow. Tomorrow roles around and he doesn't. On and on until it's exam day. And you flunk. Why? because you imprisoned your mind to this way of thinking. Instead of using the knowledge available that can help and lead to further understanding, you just simply say, "id rather wait until someday somebody MIGHT disprove it. Extremely un- scientific way of thinking
Posted by AlternativeDavid 2 years ago
AlternativeDavid
By the way, I find the pictures of the animals at the end hilarious. Those animals are most likely waiting to eat them when they're hungry.
Posted by AlternativeDavid 2 years ago
AlternativeDavid
3,000 years ago, nobody understood the idea gravity. Would you consider God to be a reasonable explanation? We will eventually be able to disprove everything relating to God. Until somebody can find irrefutable evidence for God, that can stand the test of time, we can assume he doesn't exist.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
AlternativeDavidtelisw37Tied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: countering votebomb, con does not necessarily deserve more than 3 points
Vote Placed by Domr 2 years ago
Domr
AlternativeDavidtelisw37Tied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro started off immediately wrong. God is not Tri-Omni. Bible never states this. Actually states contrary. God cannot lie. Meaning he can't be omnipotent. Argument falls apart after that.
Vote Placed by Robert_Weiler 2 years ago
Robert_Weiler
AlternativeDavidtelisw37Tied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Con's main source's seem to be Google, and the Bible. Pro made good arguments against the existence of the God of the Bible. This would be a difficult debate to take as Con, as the existence of the God of the Bible is mostly a matter or faith. Con did not truly argue the facts of existence, but spent most of the debate arguing the nature of God. Granted, Pro set him up to do just that. Conduct to Pro for Con's FF.
Vote Placed by Codedlogic 2 years ago
Codedlogic
AlternativeDavidtelisw37Tied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Con failed to refute Pros arguments against the existence of a Christian God. Cons arguments for the existence of a Christian God were impossible to follow.