The Instigator
Raymond_Reddington
Con (against)
Winning
28 Points
The Contender
Bible13
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

The Christian God Exists

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
Raymond_Reddington
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/9/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,235 times Debate No: 56281
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (23)
Votes (5)

 

Raymond_Reddington

Con

Rules
Full burden of proof is on Pro to prove that the Christian, omniscient omnipresent omnipotent and omnibenevolent, god exists. No semantics.
Con:
Round 1- rules and structure
Round 2- Main arguments and rebuttals
Round 3- rebuttals
Round 4- Rebuttals and closing statement

Pro:
Round 1- Opening arguments
Round 2- Arguments and rebuttals
Round 3- Rebuttals
Round 4- Pro must only type "No round as agreed upon"
Bible13

Pro

I accept to defend the true Christian God, Jehovah. I will begin by giving some definitions.

Omnipresent - present everywhere at the same time.

Wise King Solomon made this request to Jehovah in prayer: “May you yourself hear from the heavens, your established place of dwelling.” (1 Kings 8:30, 39) According to the Bible, then, Jehovah God has a place of dwelling.

The fact that Jehovah has a place of dwelling indicates that he is not in all places at all times. How, then, can he be aware of what is happening? (2 Chronicles 6:39) One way is through his holy spirit, or active force. The psalmist wrote: “Where can I go from your spirit, and where can I run away from your face? If I should ascend to heaven, there you would be; and if I should spread out my couch in Sheol, look! you would be there.” (Psalm 139:7-10).

To understand the pervasive effect of God’s holy spirit, picture the sun. It is at a specific location but distributes energy to a vast portion of the earth. Similarly, Jehovah God has a place of dwelling. But he can perform whatever his will is anywhere in the universe. Furthermore, Jehovah can use his holy spirit to perceive what is happening anywhere and at any time. Thus, 2 Chronicles 16:9 states: “As regards Jehovah, his eyes are roving about through all the earth to show his strength in behalf of those whose heart is complete toward him.”

God also has under his control an organization of spirit creatures called angels. The Bible indicates that those spirits may number into the hundreds of millions, perhaps billions or more. (Daniel 7:10) The Bible record contains numerous instances where angels acted as God’s representatives and came to earth, spoke to humans, and reported back to God. For example, in the days of Abraham, angels investigated a cry of complaint about Sodom and Gomorrah. God decided to destroy those cities, evidently after receiving the report from those angels.

The Bible therefore indicates that there is no need for Jehovah God literally to be everywhere. Through the operation of his holy spirit and through his angelic forces, he is able to be fully aware of what is happening with regard to his creation.

Omniscient - Knowing everything

The Bible leaves us in no doubt as to God’s having foreknowledge. He knows from the beginning the outcome (Isaiah 46:10). He even used human secretaries to record many prophecies. What is more, those prophecies always come true because God has both the wisdom and the power to fulfill them in every detail. Hence, God can not only foreknow but also foreordain events whenever he chooses to do so.

However, the Bible teaches that God is selective when it comes to foreordaining the future. For example, God foretold that “a great crowd” of righteous humans would survive the destruction of the wicked at the end of the present system of things (Revelation 7:9, 14). Note, though, that God did not give a specific number for that great crowd. The reason? He does not predestinate individuals. God is like the loving father of a large family. He knows that at least some of His children will reciprocate His love, but He does not predetermine the number. Jehovah exercises self-control in order to respect the free will that he gave us. God’s use of foreordination can be compared with the way he uses his power.

Omnipotent - Having unlimited power; able to do anything.

As the Almighty, God has absolute power. As the only being with absolute perfection, though, he balances his qualities in a perfect way; he is not just power, and he can control his power. For instance, he held back from acting against Babylon, an enemy of ancient Israel, until the time was right. “I kept exercising self-control,” God said. (Isaiah 42:14) The same principle applies to his use of foreknowledge and foreordination. God’s control of his powers does not limit him or render him imperfect. In fact, it magnifies his greatness, and it endears him to us, for it shows that his sovereignty truly is exercised not only with knowledge and power, but also with love and respect for the free will of his intelligent creation.

Omnibenevolent - All-loving, or infinitely good.

“He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.” (1 John 4:8).

ALL of Jehovah’s attributes are sterling, perfect, and appealing. But the most endearing of all of Jehovah’s qualities is love. Nothing else draws us so powerfully to Jehovah as his love. Happily, love is also his dominant quality.

Jehovah has shown love in many ways, but there is one that stands out above all others. Sending his Son to suffer and die for us. We can safely say that this is the greatest act of love in all history.

When we sin, the disappointment, shame, and guilt that we feel may cause us to think that we could never be worthy of serving Jehovah. In those moments it is good to remember that Jehovah is “ready to forgive.” (Psalm 86:5) Yes, if we repent of our sins and strive hard not to repeat them, we may benefit from Jehovah’s forgiveness.

None of these words that many use to describe God are in the Bible. With this in mind, I will commence my opening argument.

The true God has given un plenty of evidence for his existence. There is the scientific evidence that shows there must be a creator, and the best evidence there is, the scriptural evidence. It not only gives us more evidence of a God, but also teaches us about that God.

There is no other book like it. The first book of the Bible tells us how mankind"s problems began. The last book shows that the whole earth will become a paradise, or garden. All the material in the Bible covers thousands of years of history and relates in some way to the unfolding of God"s purpose. It's harmony is extraordinary, considering the Bible had over forty writers with different backgrounds who lived during different time periods and did the writing over 1,610 years.

The book of Leviticus contained laws for ancient Israel on quarantine and hygiene when surrounding nations knew nothing about such matters. At a time when there were wrong ideas about the shape of the earth, the Bible referred to it as a circle, or sphere. (Isaiah 40:22) The Bible accurately said that the earth "hangs on nothing." (Job 26:7) The Bible is not a science textbook, but it is scientifically accurate and It even contains information that was far ahead of its time. Is this not what we would expect of a book from God?

Also, all its specific prophecies have fulfilled LONG after being predicted. I'll give you a very extraordinary example. The book of Isaiah predicted the Persian king Cyrus will conquer the ancient city of Babylon about 200 YEARS before it happened. There was no other Persian king Cyrus during the 200 years after the prophecy was written.

The Babylonians were holding a festival that night and felt secure behind their massive city walls. Meanwhile, Cyrus cleverly diverted the water of the river that flowed through the city. Soon the water was shallow enough for his men to cross the riverbed and approach the walls of the city. But how would Cyrus" army get past Babylon"s walls? For some reason, on that night the doors to the city were carelessly left open!

Regarding Babylon, it was foretold: "She will never be inhabited, nor will she reside for generation after generation. And there the Arab will not pitch his tent, and no shepherds will let their flocks lie down there." (Isaiah 13:20) This prophecy did more than predict the most powerful city's fall. It predicted it's permanent desolation! You can see evidence of the fulfillment of these words. The uninhabited site of ancient Babylon, about 50 miles or 90 km, south of Baghdad, Iraq, is proof that what Jehovah spoke through Isaiah has been fulfilled: "I will sweep her with the broom of annihilation." (Isaiah 14:22, 23).

The Bible is also historically accurate and reliable. Its accounts are specific. They include not only the names but also the ancestry of individuals. In contrast to secular historians, who often do not mention the defeats of their own people, Bible writers were honest, even recording their own failings and those of their nation. In the Bible book of Numbers, for instance, the writer Moses admits his own serious error for which he was severely reproved. (Numbers 20:2-12) Such honesty is rare in other historical accounts but is found in the Bible because it is a book from God.

The Bible is also a book of practical wisdom. Consider Jesus" speech called the Sermon on the Mount, recorded in Matthew chapters 5 to 7. In this masterpiece of teaching, Jesus spoke on a number of topics, including the way to find true happiness, how to settle disputes, how to pray, and how to have the proper view of material things. Jesus" words are just as powerful and practical today as they were when he spoke them.

Some Bible principles deal with family life, work habits, and relationships with others. The Bible"s principles apply to all people, and its counsel is always beneficial. The wisdom found in the Bible is summarized by God"s words through the prophet Isaiah: "I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit yourself." (Isaiah 48:17).

The Bible truly is a unique book, but its value extends far beyond its internal harmony, scientific and historical accuracy, practical wisdom, and reliable prophecy. The Christian apostle Paul wrote: "The word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and their marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12). Reading God"s "word," or message, in the Bible can change our life. It can help us to examine ourselves as never before. It can reveal our true thoughts, even the very intentions of the heart.

Considering these facts should make you wonder: how could such an extraordinary book be the word of men? It couldn't. No doubt about it. It is the extraordinary word of the true God, Jehovah.

I eagerly await my adversary's response.
Debate Round No. 1
Raymond_Reddington

Con



Rebuttals:
"None of these words that many use to describe God are in the Bible. With this in mind, I will commence my opening argument."
True, but many people believe these are an accurate description of the Christian God. It was also made clear in the rules that omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent would be the attributes of God in this debate.

"The book of Leviticus contained laws for ancient Israel on quarantine and hygiene when surrounding nations knew nothing about such matters."
Where is the evidence that God gave them these laws? Also many Old Testament rules serve no reasonable purpose. Israelites that did not celebrate Passover were banished from the camp. Rebellious teenagers and people who worked on a Sunday were put to death. Israelites could not eat shellfish or wear torn clothes. Israelites clothing could not contain linen and wool. Basically any laws with little benefits are rare. There is no evidence that this was intentional and not just unforeseen side affects of some crazy laws.
(http://stephencjames.com...)
(http://www.buzzfeed.com...)

"At a time when there were wrong ideas about the shape of the earth, the Bible referred to it as a circle, or sphere. (Isaiah 40:22) The Bible accurately said that the earth "hangs on nothing." (Job 26:7) The Bible is not a science textbook, but it is scientifically accurate and It even contains information that was far ahead of its time. Is this not what we would expect of a book from God?"
Actually there are many gaps between the bible and science. Firstly Isaiah 41:9 says "I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you." Corners imply the earth was flat or a cube. It is also clear that from a scientific standpoint you cannot take the bible as literally true. According to the genealogies found in the bible the earth is less than ten thousand years old. This is clearly false. Dendrochronology and Radiometric dating put the world at well over ten thousand years. There is also no evidence of a global flood and plenty of contradictory evidence. (http://www.asa3.org...) (http://ncse.com...)




Prophecy of King Cyrus: Actually this prediction was made in 537 BCE so at the very least his name was widely known and it was common knowledge that the attack was imminent. The Babylon argument is absurd because it is clear that no nation or empire will last forever. Predicting the downfall of one does not require foreknowledge but time. I will now predict the downfall of the United States of America. It may take an extreme amount of time but eventually I will be right. Without time constraints predicting the downfall of any nation is ridiculously simple and does not me God gave me that knowledge. Actually many Biblical prophecies have not come true such as the drying up of the Nile or the destruction of Egypt. (http://rationalwiki.org...)




"The Bible is also historically accurate and reliable. Its accounts are specific. They include not only the names but also the ancestry of individuals. In contrast to secular historians, who often do not mention the defeats of their own people, Bible writers were honest, even recording their own failings and those of their nation. In the Bible book of Numbers, for instance, the writer Moses admits his own serious error for which he was severely reproved. (Numbers 20:2-12) Such honesty is rare in other historical accounts but is found in the Bible because it is a book from God."




Diligence of the authors is no indication that theis words come from god.




The bible's wisdom argument is irrelevant. A book can have wise principles and strong moral stances without it being inspired by god.




"Considering these facts should make you wonder: how could such an extraordinary book be the word of men? It couldn't. No doubt about it. It is the extraordinary word of the true God, Jehovah."




It could very well be the words of men. In fact there is no evidence to support any other conclusion.



Conclusion: Pro has provided no legitimate evidence to support the resolution. The Burden of Proof is not fulfilled.
Bible13

Pro

Counter-Arguments:

"True, but many people believe these are an accurate description of the Christian God."

Well, I am defending the TRUE Christian God, and really, those descriptive words (except omnipresent) describe God pretty accurately, but they are not the best descriptive words to use. You wanted me to prove the Christian God, and the Christian God is the God of the Bible, not some different version.

"many Old Testament rules serve no reasonable purpose. There is no evidence that this was intentional and not just unforeseen side affects of some crazy laws." http://wol.jw.org...

“Law is a bottomless pit, it . . . devours everything.” That statement appeared in a book published back in 1712. Its author decried a legal system in which lawsuits sometimes dragged through the courts for years, bankrupting those seeking justice. In many lands, legal and judicial systems are so complex, so rife with injustice, prejudice, and inconsistencies, that contempt for law has become widespread. By way of contrast, consider these words written some 2,700 years ago: “How I do love your law!” (Psalm 119:97) Why did the psalmist feel so strongly? Because the law he praised originated, not with any secular government, but with Jehovah God.

King David was inspired to write: “The law of Jehovah is perfect.” (Psalm 19:7) As he well knew, the Law promoted mercy and fair treatment. For instance, thieves may spend time in prison. Meanwhile, the victims may still be without their goods, yet they have to pay the taxes that house and feed such criminals. In ancient Israel, there were no prisons as we know them today. There were strict limits regarding the severity of punishments. (Deuteronomy 25:1-3) A thief had to compensate the victim for what had been stolen. In addition, the thief had to make further payment. How much? It varied. Evidently, the judges were given latitude to weigh a number of factors, such as the sinner’s repentance. That would explain why the compensation required from a thief according to Leviticus 6:1-7 is far less than that specified at Exodus 22:7.

The Mosaic Law promoted love above all else. Why, in the book of Deuteronomy alone, the word for “love” occurs in various forms over 20 times. “You must love your fellow as yourself” was the second-greatest commandment in all the Law. (Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40) God’s people were to show such love not only to one another but also to the alien residents in their midst, remembering that the Israelites too had once been alien residents. They were to show love to the poor and afflicted, helping them out materially and refraining from taking advantage of their weaknesses. They were even directed to treat beasts of burden with kindness and consideration.

"Israelites that did not celebrate Passover were banished from the camp." http://wol.jw.org...

Passover commemorates the deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt and the ‘passing over’ of their firstborn when Jehovah destroyed the firstborn of Egypt. Passover was a memorial celebration; therefore the Scriptural command was: “And it must occur that when your sons say to you, ‘What does this service mean to you?’ then you must say, ‘It is the sacrifice of the passover to Jehovah, who passed over the houses of the sons of Israel in Egypt when he plagued the Egyptians, but he delivered our houses.’” (Exodus 12:26, 27).

Rebellious teenagers and people who worked on a Sunday were put to death. http://wol.jw.org...

Concerning the rebellious teenagers being put to death, this is not a crazy law with no reasonable purpose. The punishment shows how seriously Jehovah took dissobeying your parents. Rebellious teenagers are not really a good influence on the others, and the innocent people could be harmed spiritually and physically.

Now, by "worked on a sunday" I will assume you meant people who worked during the Sabbath. It was important for individual Israelites to remember to keep the Sabbath because violation was regarded as rebellion against Jehovah and was punished by death. The desisting from all labor and observing other God-given Sabbath requirements not only gave rest to the body but, more important, provided opportunity for the individual to demonstrate his faith and obedience through Sabbath observance. It gave parents the opportunity to inculcate God’s laws and commandments in the minds and hearts of their children. (Deuteronomy 6:4-9).

"Isaiah 41:9 [...] Corners imply the earth was flat or a cube."

That verse is not even describing the shape of the earth. It's using figurative language to describe Israel (Abraham) being chosen as God's servant and friend.

"According to the genealogies found in the bible the earth is less than ten thousand years old." http://wol.jw.org...

It is easy to come to the conclusion that the Bible teaches the Earth is about 6,000 years old if we just read the creation story in Genesis. The Bible, however, does not support such a conclusion. A careful study of the Bible text reveals no conflict with established scientific facts. For that reason, Jehovah’s Witnesses disagree with Christian Fundamentalists and many creationists.

The fact is that the Hebrew word translated “day” can mean various lengths of time, not just a 24-hour period. For example, when summarizing God’s creative work, Moses refers to all six creative days as one day (Genesis 2:4). In addition, on the first creative day, “God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night.” (Genesis 1:5). Here, only a portion of a 24-hour period is defined by the term “day.” Another example is that a regular day for Jehovah is 1,000 years according to 2 Peter 3:8. So, the creative days could have been a lot longer. Certainly, there is no basis in Scripture for arbitrarily stating that each creative day was 24 hours long.

Genesis' account of creation can be taken literally and is in harmony with science. What you must understand is that this was originally written in Hebrew, and the word we translate "day" is not necessarily 24 hours, and I gave many examples.

"Prophecy of King Cyrus: Actually this prediction was made in 537 BCE".

Actually, the writing by Isaiah was completed by about 732 B.C.E. "Cyrus had not been born when the prophecy was written. The Jews were not taken into exile to Babylon until 617-607 B.C.E., and Jerusalem and its temple were not destroyed until 607 B.C.E. In detail the prophecy was fulfilled starting in 539 B.C.E. Cyrus diverted the waters of the Euphrates River into an artificial lake, the river gates of Babylon were carelessly left open during feasting in the city, and Babylon fell to the Medes and Persians under Cyrus. Thereafter, Cyrus liberated the Jewish exiles and sent them back to Jerusalem with instructions to rebuild Jehovah’s temple there." (Sources: The Encyclopedia Americana (1956), Vol. III, p. 9; Light From the Ancient Past (Princeton, 1959), Jack Finegan, pp. 227-229; “All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial” (New York, 1983), pp. 282, 284, 295.).

"Actually many Biblical prophecies have not come true such as the drying up of the Nile or the destruction of Egypt." http://wol.jw.org...

These are not failed Biblical prophecies. Egypt is successively conquered by Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. All these events fulfill the prophecies of Isaiah 19:1-11. However, in the Bible, Egypt often symbolizes Satan’s world. (Ezekiel 29:3; Joel 3:19; Revelation 11:8) Therefore, Isaiah’s “pronouncement against Egypt” has a larger fulfillment. Jehovah will soon move against Satan’s organization. At that time, the gods of this system of things will be seen to be valueless. (Psalm 96:5; 97:7) “The very heart of Egypt will melt” in fear.

"Diligence of the authors is no indication that theis words come from god. The bible's wisdom argument is irrelevant. A book can have wise principles and strong moral stances without it being inspired by god."

But Bible claims to be from God; it must demonstrate it, and it does. Wouldn't practical wisdom be expected from the word of God?

"It could very well be the words of men. In fact there is no evidence to support any other conclusion."

No. It could, and I have given the evidence to support my conclusion.

Conclusion: Con has provided no legitimate evidence to support the Bible was the word of men. If Con can not prove the Bible to be the word of men, it is the word of the Christian God. Therefore, the Christian God exists.
























Debate Round No. 2
Raymond_Reddington

Con

Rebuttals

“Well, I am defending the TRUE Christian God, and really, those descriptive words (except omnipresent) describe God pretty accurately, but they are not the best descriptive words to use. You wanted me to prove the Christian God, and the Christian God is the God of the Bible, not some different version.”

The description of the god you are defending was made clear in the rules. If you had a problem with the rules you should not have accepted.

The Law

Pro appears to concede my point about the numerous miscellaneous laws explaining away any possible beneficial side effects. He then tries to say that since the Israelis loved the law it must have come from god. This is obviously absurd. I’m sure at least a couple Buddhists love some of the laws set forth in the Sutras. If two contradicting religions can be proved true by the logic then the logic is clearly flawed. Love of the law does not mean the law was inspired by god.


The Earth is a Cube

This is a couple verses earlier before god addresses Abraham

Isaiah 41:5- The islands have seen it and fear; the ends of the earth tremble.

Isaiah 41:9- I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you.

Why would an all knowing god put a metaphor in his holy book, that he knew would be interpreted as literal for years to come, and then proved wrong by science years later? Wouldn’t it have been smarter to just leave that part out, or replace it with “from faraway places”? Isn’t he setting himself up for people to point at it and say “the bible contradicts science!”? A truly all knowing god could have easily avoided such a mistake and obviously would have. Now here is the verse you claim predicts that the earth is a sphere.

Isaiah 40:22- He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

I don’t believe you can set up a tent/canopy over a sphere. Most people prefer flat objects for that which is good because there is a difference between a circle and a sphere. God was smart enough to set his tent on something flat (circle).

Here is another verse you used.

Job 26:7- He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing.

First of all this is actually Job talking not god. Secondly a few verses later god rebukes Job for saying this.

Job 38:4-7- “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand.Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone—while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

God is telling Job that apparently he knows nothing about astronomy, certainly not the fact that the earth is suspended in space.

Prophecy of King Cyrus

All of your sources state the date that Cyrus conquered Babylon, not when it was predicted in the Old Testament. They don’t support the conclusion you have come to. Actually the majority of scholars believe it was written in the period of Babylonian Captivity or later and possibly by multiple people. It is probable that Isaiah wrote chapters 1-39 in the 8th century BCE, but unfortunately the prophecy about Cyrus occurs in chapter 45. All of this is confirmable in these two sources.

(http://en.wikipedia.org...)

(http://books.google.com.au...)

A prophecy is only notable if it is stated before the predicted event.

Egypt

The verse actually claims Egypt will be uninhabited for 40 years after its destruction.

Ezekiel 29:8-12

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring a sword upon thee, and cut off man and beast out of thee. And the land of Egypt shall be desolate and waste; and they shall know that I am the LORD: because he hath said, The river is mine, and I have made it. Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years. And I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries.

Of course this has never happened. Pro attempts to play this off by claiming Egypt is just a symbol. Pro also did not to address the prophecy about the Nile drying up. What exactly is the Nile a symbol for?

“But Bible claims to be from God; it must demonstrate it, and it does. Wouldn't practical wisdom be expected from the word of God?”

So because I could expect to hear practical wisdom from god, every time I hear practical wisdom it is an indication that god exists? The logic here is laughable. This is no argument for the existence of god.

“I have given the evidence to support my conclusion.”

I have yet to see any serious evidence proving your claim or even supporting it in the slightest.

The Problem of Evil

It has already been established that Pro is arguing for the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent god. The Problem of Evil is a successful argument against such a being’s existence.

1. 1. If an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent god existed, gratuitous suffering would not exist.

2. 2. Gratuitous suffering exists.

3. 3. An omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent god does not exist.

Defense of 1: A completely loving and good being would be willing to end all evil if possible. An omnipotent being would be capable of doing it. Therefore an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god does not exist.

Defense of 2: This one is obvious. Natural disasters, starving children in Africa, animals receiving inhumane treatment are all examples of unnecessary suffering.

“William L. Rowe's famous example of natural evil: ‘In some distant forest lightning strikes a dead tree, resulting in a forest fire. In the fire a fawn is trapped, horribly burned, and lies in terrible agony for several days before death relieves its suffering.’”

(http://en.wikipedia.org...)

Point 3 is proven.

Conclusion:

The Burden of Proof is on Pro here (obviously) and he must prove that the Christian god probably exists. The burden is unfulfilled. There is no real evidence for the existence of god here other than prophecies that have never come true or were written after the event they predicted. Pro’s case is working against him here. Because prophecies from an all knowing good would have to come true, the fact that they do not is an argument against god’s existence. The problem of evil is also evidence against the existence of god. Unfortunately my opponent has also plagiarized most of his debate. Nearly all of his arguments come word for word, unquoted and mostly unsourced from websites and he is passing off their work as his own. To double check copy and paste his arguments into this site (http://www.paperrater.com...).

Bible13

Pro

You insulted the perfect law so I defended it. I never claimed that the fact that the Israelis loved it meant it was from God.

The Earth is either a cube or it is circular. Those who seek for the truth in the Bible can know when the Bible is using a metaphor and when it is literal easily by the context. If someone now said "I've been searching for you to the corners of the Earth" do you assume he thinks the Earth is a cube? That would be idiotic. And there is nothing absurd with God setting up a tent on a sphere. After all, we are on a sphere, aren't we? And many set up tents on this sphere.

My sources indicate that the prophecy was written long before Cyrus was even born. I even included the years everything happened AFTER the prophecy was written. Everything fulfilled to the smallest detail. I'm not sure I addressed this before so I will do it now. You said anyone can predict the downfall of the most powerful city. How about being right about the name of who will do it, and specifically how he will do it, hundreds of years before it happens. Can anybody do that? You think it was coincidence that the first emperor called Cyrus successfully conquered Babylon without a fight because the gates were carelessly left open just like the Bible said?

I already explained what the Egypt prophecy means. The Nile is just part of that prophecy. What does it mean? You might find the answer if you do a careful research of the importance of the Nile river to the Egyptians. The desolation most likely isn't symbolic, though. "After the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E., the remnant of Judah fled to Egypt despite the prophet Jeremiah"s warning. (Jeremiah 24:1, 8-10; 42:7-22) That did not prove to be an escape for them because Nebuchadnezzar came up against Egypt and conquered it. The 40-year desolation of Egypt may have followed that conquest. While secular history provides no evidence of this desolation, we can be confident that it took place because Jehovah is the Fulfiller of prophecy."Isaiah 55:11." http://wol.jw.org...

Everything with practical wisdom is not from God. But something from God is expected to have practical wisdom. I don't see how this is hard to understand.

Why do we suffer? Why does a completely loving and good God allow suffering? Will God end suffering? If so, why does he wait so long? It's all explained here: http://www.jw.org...
Debate Round No. 3
Raymond_Reddington

Con

“You insulted the perfect law so I defended it. I never claimed that the fact that the Israelis loved it meant it was from God.”

I did not insult Old Testament Law. I merely refuted his argument. If his argument was not for the existence of god then he is not arguing the resolution.

“The Earth is either a cube or it is circular. Those who seek for the truth in the Bible can know when the Bible is using a metaphor and when it is literal easily by the context. If someone now said "I've been searching for you to the corners of the Earth" do you assume he thinks the Earth is a cube? That would be idiotic. And there is nothing absurd with God setting up a tent on a sphere. After all, we are on a sphere, aren't we? And many set up tents on this sphere.”

Pro apparently gives up his claim that the bible had scientific foreknowledge about the shape of the earth. If we can take the cube part as a metaphor why can’t we also take the circle (not sphere) part as a metaphor?

“My sources indicate that the prophecy was written long before Cyrus was even born. I even included the years everything happened AFTER the prophecy was written. Everything fulfilled to the smallest detail. I'm not sure I addressed this before so I will do it now. You said anyone can predict the downfall of the most powerful city. How about being right about the name of who will do it, and specifically how he will do it, hundreds of years before it happens. Can anybody do that? You think it was coincidence that the first emperor called Cyrus successfully conquered Babylon without a fight because the gates were carelessly left open just like the Bible said?”

Your “sources” are one Jehovah’s Witness website that can hardly be considered reliable. I gave two sources, one of which was a scholarly book focused on dating much of the Old Testament, making an opposite claim. At the very least it is widely contested. (http://www.britannica.com...)

Either way there is no reason to believe this prophecy came from god when there is contrary evidence. It is certainly not a serious argument for the existence of god.

“I already explained what the Egypt prophecy means. The Nile is just part of that prophecy. What does it mean? You might find the answer if you do a careful research of the importance of the Nile river to the Egyptians. The desolation most likely isn't symbolic, though. ‘After the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E., the remnant of Judah fled to Egypt despite the prophet Jeremiah"s warning. (Jeremiah 24:1, 8-10; 42:7-22) That did not prove to be an escape for them because Nebuchadnezzar came up against Egypt and conquered it. The 40-year desolation of Egypt may have followed that conquest. While secular history provides no evidence of this desolation, we can be confident that it took place because Jehovah is the Fulfiller of prophecy."Isaiah 55:11.’”

If many prophecies are symbolic how can you possibly decipher which ones are literal and which ones are metaphors? Do you call the one’s that “allegedly” come true literal while all the others are metaphors?

“Everything with practical wisdom is not from God. But something from God is expected to have practical wisdom. I don't see how this is hard to understand.”

It isn’t but Pro is supposed to be making arguments for the existence of god. Apparently this is not one of them.

“Why do we suffer? Why does a completely loving and good God allow suffering? Will God end suffering? If so, why does he wait so long? It's all explained here”

First of all you should not do your arguing with sources. The voters should not have to go through every source you provide just because you don’t want to formulate the arguments yourself.

Here are the main arguments from the source:

“Do you know why people make the mistake of blaming God for all the suffering in the world? In many cases, they blame Almighty God because they think that he is the real ruler of this world.

1. They do not know a simple but important truth that the Bible teaches. You learned that truth in Chapter 3 of this book. The real ruler of this world is Satan the Devil.”

2. “A second reason why there is so much suffering is that, as discussed in Chapter 3, mankind has been imperfect and sinful ever since the rebellion in the garden of Eden. Sinful humans tend to struggle for dominance, and this results in wars, oppression, and suffering.”

3. A third reason for suffering is “time and unforeseen occurrence.” (Ecclesiastes 9:11) In a world without Jehovah as a protective Ruler, people may suffer because they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

4. Adam and Eve rebelled against Jehovah. In effect, they said: ‘We do not need Jehovah as our Ruler. We can decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong.’ How could Jehovah settle that issue? How could he teach all intelligent creatures that the rebels were wrong and that his way truly is best? Someone might say that God should simply have destroyed the rebels and made a fresh start. But Jehovah had stated his purpose to fill the earth with the offspring of Adam and Eve, and he wanted them to live in an earthly paradise.

All of these arguments are simply absurd. The first one completely contradicts god’s omnipotence. God would still have the power to stop evil. The second one makes the same mistake. Our “sins” could be ended in a second by an omnipotent god. The third contradicts god’s omnipresence which was clarified in the rules. The fourth also contradicts god’s omnipotence. He could have snapped his fingers to fix our “rebelliousness”, if he existed.

Conclusion

Pro has failed to fulfill his burden as stated in the rules. The majority of his arguments were completely false and he failed to refute mine. Here is how the voting should go:

Sources and Conduct: Me for Pro’s plagiarism

Arguments: Me because Pro did not fulfill his BoP.

Spelling and Grammar: Tied

Vote for Con!

Bible13

Pro

Bible13 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
23 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Notice Pro can only cite the JW variation of the Bible, as Jehovah Witnesses are not allowed to read the genuine Bible translations.
Because the JW variation of the Bible has been doctored by their Governing Body to only say what they want JW followers to believe.

Private reading of the genuine Bible is not allowed for JW followers.
Posted by Nicoszon_the_Great 2 years ago
Nicoszon_the_Great
Can I change my vote? I gave a neutral to conduct, but then I saw the blatant arrogance in bible13's comments, even though he failed to deliver.

This isn't even the first debates he's done this and lost.

Honestly, man.
Posted by Raymond_Reddington 2 years ago
Raymond_Reddington
Don't forget to only type "No round as agreed upon"! Not doing so will result in a full forfeit!
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
The Bible only mentions Hell in several passages, but many times mentions casting unbelievers into the Lake of Fire and in Mathew it is a furnace of fire. As a second death, so there is no eternal suffering in most passages, just a second extremely painful death.
Matthew 18:9 - And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 13:50 - And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Luke 12:5 - But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
James 3:6 - And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Hardly the hallmarks of a Benevolent Deity!?
Posted by Bible13 2 years ago
Bible13
Ok, good luck!
Posted by Raymond_Reddington 2 years ago
Raymond_Reddington
It's hardly wasting a round. 10,000 characters leaves room for a lot of miscellaneous arguments.
Posted by Bible13 2 years ago
Bible13
Go ahead. If you sincerely don't know what my answer would be, you may waste a round with that. It's a very simple question and the answer is very clearly stated in the Bible.
Posted by Raymond_Reddington 2 years ago
Raymond_Reddington
Now I'm somewhat curious as to what your response would be to the Problem of Evil. Assuming god is omnibenevolent how would you explain away gratuitous suffering?
Posted by Bible13 2 years ago
Bible13
Haha, the existence of evil argument will get you no where. It would just show your lack of biblical knowledge. Don't even waste your time. And, btw, I don't believe in hell. ;)
Posted by Raymond_Reddington 2 years ago
Raymond_Reddington
@Sagey
I completely agree with you, but in my opinion it's easier to just refute their claims rather than make positive assertions against gods existence such as the problem of evil. I may go for it next round though.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Raymond_ReddingtonBible13Tied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: Con's arguments were rational, the Bible proves God is not Omni-Benevolent and Pro's sources are the Jehovah Witness version of the Bible which is fallacious, as they cherry pick passages to make the Bible appear to mean what it does not. So Con also had the better sources. Pro should use genuine Bible sources, not Contrived JW variant. But then again JWs are not allowed to read the Bible for themselves, because they may see that they are very different in interpretation. The Governing Body does not allow individual bible readings for this reason. Such is JW mind control.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
Raymond_ReddingtonBible13Tied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture
Vote Placed by Nicoszon_the_Great 2 years ago
Nicoszon_the_Great
Raymond_ReddingtonBible13Tied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Blatant plagiarism, ugh, what was the point of 9th grade english class
Vote Placed by Cold-Mind 2 years ago
Cold-Mind
Raymond_ReddingtonBible13Tied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: As Con wrote in conclusion.
Vote Placed by bladerunner060 2 years ago
bladerunner060
Raymond_ReddingtonBible13Tied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct for the forfeit. As to arguments, Pro spent a lot of time talking about what the bible said, and asserting that the bible was divinely dictated. But, as Con points out, assertions do not make it so, and Pro failed to support the idea that the Bible was sufficient evidence for the existence of God. (Pro also tried to change the resolution after acceptance, which was unfair of him and almost warranted conduct, but considering Con had already won it for the forfeit, it was hardly necessary to really make that decision). As always, happy to clarify this RFD.