The Instigator
kingcripple
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Tylerbrown13
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

The Christian God does not exist

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/11/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 419 times Debate No: 28086
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

kingcripple

Con

This is a challege to Tylerbrown13 about whether the Christian God exists. I worded the title and took the con position in a way that would put the burden of proof in Tyler's hands because in his profile hes claims that he will debate any Christian at anytime. I hope he is ok with this. As such, I will only post rules 1st round and let Tyler accept and also let him make his arguments first round. I will wait til second round to make my own arguments and counter arguments.

Rules:

5 rounds
8,000 characters
If an argument is not countered the next round, that person who is to make counter arguments is allowed to make a counter argument/rebuttal in the round after, if it is not rebutted, counts as a concession, ex. pro makes argument in round 1 con does not rebutt in round 2 or round 3 point goes to pro and vice versa

Definitions, as it suits pro, can be up to him.
Tylerbrown13

Pro

First I thank my opponent, kingcripple, for challenging me to this debate.
I also thank my opponent for allowing me to provide my own definitions, as I am taking the pro side of the argument.
  • God - The God (LORD), holds all characteristics exemplified in the Bible as his whole self, as that is the closest real physical relation they have to their God. He is absolutely (as opposed to commonly) omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. He is also a Personal God.
  • Existence - The physical existence of a consciousness or entity, outside or inside the universe. Not an abstract concept that humans created.
  • Absolute Omnibenevolence - The infinite disposition to do good
  • Absolute Omniscience - The infinite knowledge of all things in existence or out of existence.
  • Absolute Omnipotence - The infinite power to do absolutely anything, including defy logic, due to the fact that he created everything (including logic)
  • Absolute Omnipresence - The infinite presence everywhere, in existence, or out of existence
  • Evil - The opposite of good, has an objective presence in the bible (Satan)

I. The Problem of Evil

1. The Christian God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent
2. Evil exists
3. The Christian God knows of all Evil
4. The Christian God can stop all Evil
5. The Christian God has an infinite disposition to do good
5. The Christian God, due to premise 3, 4 and 5, must eliminate evil.
6. The existence of evil, and God's need to eliminate all evil are mutually exclusive.
7. God cannot existence as he is claimed

II. Omniscience and Omnipotence are mutually exclusive.

1. The Christian God is omniscient and omnipotent
2. The Christian God knows everything he is going to do.
3. The Christian God has the power to do everything (including do something he's knows he's not going to do.
4. These two traits are contradictory, he cannot do something he knows he isn't going to do, and vice versa.
5. The Christian God can not exist as he's claimed.

Ex.
1. The Christian God knows he's going to do X, due to his omniscience.
2. The Christian God has the power to not do X.
3. With the power not to do X, he cannot know that he's going to execute X, because the possibility remains that he can not do X.

III. Omnipotence and Logic are mutually exclusive

1. The Christian God is omnipotent
2. Logic Exists
3. The Christian God has the power to do something logically impossible.
4. To assert a being can do something logically impossible, is illogical.
5. The Christian God is illogical
6. The Christian God cannot exist as he's claimed.

IV. Biblical Contradictions

1. The Christian God holds all the characteristics exemplified in the Bible.
2. There are logical contradictions in the Bible,
(Ex. The creation of light without the stars, which we now know is the source of light, and without the stars, the universe would be dark)
3. There are then, logical contradictions in God himself,
4. The Christian God cannot exist as he is claimed

I realize that some of these are the same arguments I used in my other debate, but as I defined God differently, and went through the process of defining all the "omni"-terms, the logic is completely functional.
Debate Round No. 1
kingcripple

Con

Thank you for accepting. I believe I can prove my point by tackling the problem of evil alone, but will try to tackle all points.

The problem of evil

You say that God knows of all evil and can stop all evil. Yes absolutly. God has the infinate disposition to do good. Glad we agree on that as well. Evil exists. Duh, look what happened in Newtown, CT last week. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. Of course. Due to premise 2-4 God must eliminate evil. And He will on His time.

The issue here is not that since Evil exists, then God cannot. Who is the standard bearer for good and evil? There must be someone or something to create that standard. Was it man? How could you say that even though man commits crimes everyday that man also condemns as evil created that standard of what is good and what is evil? You can't. You want to talk about logic, that bears no logic. How can God exist in His omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent form if evil exists? Simple. God is the creator all things. He can do with it what He will. He is the standard bearer of all things good and evil. The burden of proof is on you to prove differently.

omnipotence, omniscience & logic

I am putting premises 2 & 3 in one catagory here. I believe you are trying to confuse people here. God can do X. God can do Y. if X contridicts Y, so what? Who are you to say that God cannot do X as well as Y. God will do one over the other, always, but He will do whichever is closest to His character. Who are you to determine logic? You posed no definition of logic in your opening round. You simply said Logic exists. Which it does. I have had so much trouble talking to my Christian friends about using logic when studying the Bible. The issue here is much like the issue with evil. God can certainly do X. But refer back to the story of Creation. God said "don't do this". Man did. So God punished us. It is not out of character for God. Much like it would not be out of character for your parents to punish you for doing something. In order do debunk this counter argument, you must first disprove that God created all things.

Biblical Contridictions

What logical contridictions are there in God himself? Before we discuss this, you have to make valid your claims. Carl Sagan said "extrodinary claims require extrodinary evidence" I understand Sagan was trying to disprove the existance of God with this statement, but the claim that God does not exist is equally as extrodinary as the claim that He does. I don't see any evidence that you have proven that he does not.

To sum up this round, look at your own definition of absolute omnipotence. The ability to do absolutly anything. Just because He does one thing and not the other does not mean God does not exist. It means he is doing what is aligned with HIS CHARACTER
Tylerbrown13

Pro

Tylerbrown13 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
kingcripple

Con

either Tyler is busy or i proved my points well. Ill wait for his response in the next round to my previous arguments. given that its christmas, i can be nice about the forfeiture.
Tylerbrown13

Pro

I apologize for my forfeit last round, Christmas things with my family did come up, and I thank my opponent for his understanding.


"Thank you for accepting. I believe I can prove my point by tackling the problem of evil alone, but will try to tackle all points."

I made this clear in my previous debate, but not this one,

If anyone of my points is valid, then my claim that the Christian God is invalid in whole is true, due to the fact that no existing entity can hold contradictions within themselves.

In essence, you can't disprove my claim that the Christian God does not exist by just disproving one of my claims, you have to disprove them all, that being said...

I. The Problem of Evil

"You say that God knows of all evil and can stop all evil. Yes absolutly. God has the infinate disposition to do good. Glad we agree on that as well. Evil exists. Duh, look what happened in Newtown, CT last week. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. Of course. Due to premise 2-4 God must eliminate evil. And He will on His time."

The infinite disposition to do good causes him to have to elimate evil at all times, not just at a given period of time.

"He is the standard bearer of all things good and evil. The burden of proof is on you to prove differently."

I accept this, but the thing is that in the Bible there is an objective evil, Satan, if you disagree with this, then i'll dispute that in the next round.
Debate Round No. 3
kingcripple

Con

kingcripple forfeited this round.
Tylerbrown13

Pro

Tylerbrown13 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
kingcripple

Con

kingcripple forfeited this round.
Tylerbrown13

Pro

I first want to apologize for forfeiting. New Years things did come up, and looking back on it, accepting the debate at this time of the year might have not been the smartest thing. Non-the-less, I do believe I have sufficiently justified my point in the previous round. But I can't necxesarily call this a fair debate. Vote as you please.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by bubbles2464 2 years ago
bubbles2464
Well, there is no scientific proof that "God" exists. So how do you Christians know if he is real..? Just because this so called bible says so? You weren't born the time that Jesus was supposedly alive, you you have no proof. I'm not against any Christians, i'm just stating the obvious. And what I believe in.
Posted by johnlubba 3 years ago
johnlubba
Good debate.
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