The Instigator
UnhookedSchnook
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
brontoraptor
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

The Christian god exists and rules over the universe - read rules.

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/30/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 338 times Debate No: 93238
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

UnhookedSchnook

Con

My opponent must be a Christian that believes in every word of the bible. They must construct one strong evidence-based argument that proves the existence of their god. If my opponent or I disagree with one another (which we most likely will) we must post a refute/defence. I will not post any points as to why being an atheist is best as we do not have the burden of proof. If my opponent agrees with me I win, if I agree with them they win, if we disagree the voters are suggested to look for any violations of my rules and/or see if his argument holds up to my refutes.

Terms

All terms and definitions are influenced by or excerpted from the Oxford Dictionary.

Rules

1. No forfeits
2. Any citations or foot/endnotes must be individually provided in the text of the debate
3. No new arguments in the final round
4. Maintain a civil and decorous atmosphere
5. No trolling or deconstruction semantics
6. No "kritiks" of the topic (i.e. arguments that challenge an assumption in the resolution)
7. My opponent accepts all definitions and waives his/her right to add resolution definitions
8. For all undefined terms, individuals should use commonplace understandings that fit within the logical context of the resolution and this debate
9. The BOP is shared
10. The first round is for acceptance only
11. Violation of any of these rules or of any of the R1 set-up merits a loss

Structure

R1. my rules, your argument
R2. my refute, your defence
R3. my summary and refute, your summary and defence
brontoraptor

Pro

Christ gave us the timeline from himself to the end. He gives some bold claims for a Jewish carpenter 2,000 years ago. Could it be possible? Absolutely...

1)
(Matthew 24:14)
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Per the "Worldwide Web", this is reality.

http://www.jesusiscoming.education...

The full Bible has been translated into 531 languages, and 2,883 languages have at least some portion of the Gospel.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

*

1)A great "false" antichrist prophet will arise denouncing Jesus as the Son of God.

Muhammed arrived and denounced Jesus as the Son of God, put the kaaba stone in place to be bowed to in the name of Allah, and directed that no other religion could be allowed on the Arabian Penninsula.

http://carm.org...

http://www.hope-of-israel.org...

*

2)This prophet will set up a graven image to be bowed to or the result is death.

In Revelation 13:15 the followers of Antichrist bow to an image set up by the "great prophet" in mass.

Picture bowing to Kaaba

https://edaccessible.com...

(Time lapse video of Muslims bowing to the Kaaba)

http://youtu.be...

*

3)He will empower a false God who will literally be declared to be God in the temple of God and does not accept that Jesus is the Son of God. He is set up at the temple mount.

There is a "god" set up in the temple in the exact location: temple mount. Here is the inscription on that temple.

"Far be it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son."

http://www.islamic-awareness.org...

*

4)His followers behead Christians.

Muhammed's followers behead Christians.

http://www.ijreview.com...

(Quran 8:12) says that Allah will "terrorize unbelievers" and Muslims are to behead them.

*

5)His followers will make up 1/4 of the world in the end and will live and spread "by the sword".

Muhammed's followers make up 1/4 of the world, and their symbol is the sword.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

http://www.islam101.com...

"And I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green like a corpse. And Death was the name of its rider, who was followed around by the grave. They were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword." (Revelation 6:7-8)

*

(Luke 21:25)
"And upon the earth there will be a distress of nations, with perplexity."

That would be an understatement...

www.cfr.org/global/global-conflict-tracker/p32137#!

http://www.theatlantic.com...

*

(Luke 17:26)
"Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the end."

What was it like in the ancient story of Noah? The world was filled with unimaginable violence.

http://www.gotquestions.org...

(Luke 17:28)
"And the world will be as it was in the days of Lot."

Since 2001, 14 countries have fully legalized homosexual marriage, Argentina, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Iceland, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, South Africa, Sweden, New Zealand, Uraguay, France, with parts of North and South America doing the same. And the list is growing all the time. And yet what did God's Word say in Jude 1:7? That Sodom was set as an example to the world.

http://www.endtimes-bibleprophecy.com...

*

End times prophecy-

(Isaiah 17:1)
A prophecy against Damascus: "See, Damascus will no longer be as it was, but will become a heap of ruins."

Damascus has been destroyed by the Syrian war.

http://americanvision.org...

http://www.raptureforums.com...

(Video Drone footage of Damascus)

http://youtu.be...

Here is a Biblical scholar pointing out this point before Damascus was ever hit.

http://www.alamongordo.com...

*

(Daniel 11:42-43)
"It shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape." But it shall have power over them, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at its mercy."

Egypt did not escape. Libya and Ethiopia are in submission.

http://mobile.nytimes.com...

http://www.colinagyles.com...

*

(Revelation 17:5)
"The name written on her forehead was a mystery: babylon the great the mother of prostitutes and of the abominations of the earth."

It told us exactly what and where it is. A city. By the Red Sea. Hated by Iran. Against Christ. The place where they bow to its image....

http://youtu.be...
Debate Round No. 1
UnhookedSchnook

Con

As my opponent said, "Christ gave us the timeline from himself to the end. He gives some bold claims for a Jewish carpenter 2,000 years ago. Could it be possible? Absolutely". Absolutely, but only if you cherry pick prophecies and are ignorant of the vagueness of each of these "predictions".
For a prophecy to be impressive it must fulfil these criteria:
"
1.It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements.
2.It must be in the Bible. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not in the Bible, because Biblical foreknowledge definitionally can only come from the Bible itself.
3.It must be unambiguous. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if multiple outcomes could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional or not.
4.It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened be true but were believed to be true without solid evidence.
5.It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it.

"
http://rationalwiki.org...
Without specifics a prophecy is worthless, like the predictions you referenced. They are vague, probable and without timeframe. To prove that a prophecy that does not fulfil this criteria is unimpressive I will give you an example of a modern prophecy similar to one of the bible. "We will be discriminated against based on our religious belief/s." See what I mean. If Jesus predicted something like 9/11 in a clear way with a date I would be impressed but the predictions you have listed are anything but clear or specific.
Additionally, you failed to mention unfulfilled biblical prophecy:
Ezekiel 29:8-15 " Egypt would be a barren wasteland
Ezekiel 30:12 " The Nile will dry up
Isiah 7:1-7 " Judah will not be harmed by his enemies, but in Chronicles 28:1-8 he was harmed
Isiah 19:1-8 " The Nile will dry up and the sea will drain
Isiah 19:18 " The Egyptians will speak the language of Canaan
Exodus 23:25-31 " Israel will extend from the Red Sea to the Euphrates
And the list goes on, if you would like more I am happy to provide them!!!

Now to your direct "evidences".

1.The bible has been preached among much of the world, yes. But so were lots of religions before it, of course it was going to be as well. This violates criteria 3, 4 and 5.
2." see 5
3." see 5
4." see 5
5.This had all been done before!!! Religions come and go, different characters are worshiped, especially in those times: killing by beheading was common and so was killing believers in alternative religions so when the two are combined it is not a surprise. This violates criteria 3, 4 and 5.
6.The Achaemenid Empire (500BC to 300BC) populated 44.48% of the earth, they believed in Zoroastrianism and Babylonian religion occupying a minimum of 22.24% of the world with each religion, close to Islam"s 23% that you alluded the " represents. This violates criteria 3, 4 and 5.
https://en.wikipedia.org...

As for the sword, I believe that that has been taken out of context from the bible passage, but even so, the crescent is the symbol for Islam and Muhammed did not want a holy symbol for Islam as it was not something he agreed with. Even if the sword was used that is no surprise, around this time period swords were very popular and now have historical value.
7.This one "predicts" religious conflict between nations, I don"t know if you are sure but there was a lot of religious wars before Christianity i.e. it is easy to predict as it is natural to fight over religion! https://en.wikipedia.org... here are some. Also you linked ISIS, that is not a nation!
8.This one "predicts" violence and sin across the world, wow, I don"t know if you know but violence and sin in nature is not too hard to predict, after all it is all natural!!! There are gay farm animals, there are murderous animals etc. "I predict that things fight and sin" wow I must see the future as well!!!
9.https://en.wikipedia.org... " here is a link to the history of the middle east, you can see that it is disable even before Christianity, no surprise that it still is. Damascus in particular, it is not "a heap of ruins", don"t get me wrong, it is in bad shape but it still has a lot of structures, after all 1.7 million people still live there. https://www.google.com.au...
10."He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Ethiopians shall follow at his heels." this is so vague. What does it even mean? It appears it predicts a dictator but, huh? You wrote "Egypt did not escape. Libya and Ethiopia are in submission." What did Egypt not escape? What are Libya and Ethiopia in submission too? "Something will happen to Egypt, Libya and Ethiopia." I would be worried if a common thing did not happen in these countries after 2000 years.
11.I don"t know how you go from "The name written on her forehead was a mystery: babylon the great the mother of prostitutes and of the abominations of the earth." (as written in the bible) to "It told us exactly what and where it is. A city. By the Red Sea. Hated by Iran. Against Christ. The place where they bow to its image...."

Babylon was founded in 1894BC and died in 539BC i.e. pre Christ and pre Christianity.

Further on this, Babylon was not by the red sea " if that is even what you are saying?!?!
brontoraptor

Pro

Con:
"It must be accurate."

Show us the inaccuracies.

*

Con:
"It must be in the Bible."

It is in the Bible.

*

Con:
"It must be unambiguous."

It is. Gospel preached throughout the world, great prophet comes and renounces Christ, sets up a graven image that is bowed to, sets up something at the Temple Mount declaring it God, death to those who reject it, it's a group that beheads Christians, Ishmael's seed will not be God's children (Islam's father is Ishmael ), they make up 1/4 of Earth, they are represented by the sword, their belief is hellbent on conquest.

*

Con:
"It must be improbable."

That's about as improbable as it gets.

*

Con:
"It must have been unknown."

No one could have known Islam would appear around 700 AD fulfilling the book of Revelation in every way imaginable.

*

Islam 101

The Most Awful Name In Allah"s Sight " Sahih-Al-Bukhari Bk 73; Num 224

Mohammed said, "The most awful name in Allah"s sight on the Day of Resurrection, will be (that of) a man calling himself Malik Al-Amlak (the King of kings)."

Jesus is referred to as King of Kings in Revelation.

https://carlosmdiaz.wordpress.com...

"The beast of the Earth"

The book of Revelation mentioned the "beast of the Earth" who marks the followers of Antichrist on their forheads.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...(Revelation)

And when the Word is fulfilled against them (the unjust), we shall produce from the earth a beast to (face) them: He will speak to them, for that mankind did not believe with assurance in Our Signs.

"R01;Qur'an, sura 27 (An-Naml), ayat 82

"It will destroy the nose of every unbeliever with the rod, and write the word "Kafir" (unbeliever) on his forehead; it will adorn the face of every believer and write the word "Mu'min" on his forehead, and it will speak to people."

www.discoveringislam.org/daabba.htm

What is 666?(Short video)

http://youtu.be...

Mystery Babylon(For those interested)

http://youtu.be...
Debate Round No. 2
UnhookedSchnook

Con

Thank you for your defence. Your defence barely touched upon any of my refutes and gave either pointlessly short attempts at a defence or irrelevant information. You only spoke about your ‘evidences’ having to do with my criteria, but seemed to ignore the 786 words that actually answer the majority of your ‘concerns’. On top of this, the actual ‘defences’ you supplied you use an example of 1 of 12 of your predictions to try and attack the criteria, I am not saying that all your ‘evidences’ violate all the criteria, but they all violate at least one, and the violation of one of these criteria’s is enough to dismantle the ‘prophecy’.

My original refute bolded

Your defence underlined

My new comment is in standard font

1.It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements.

Show us the inaccuracies.

You need to read my arguments!!! I have an individual refute to each of the ‘prophecies’.

I am not saying that all your ‘evidences’ violate all the criteria, but they all violate at least one, and the violation of one of these criteria’s is enough to dismantle the ‘prophecy’.


2.It must be in the Bible. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not in the Bible, because Biblical foreknowledge definitionally can only come from the Bible itself.

It is in the Bible.

You included multiple ‘prophecies’, all yours were in the bible but I still included this criteria as it is a part of the criteria.


3.It must be unambiguous. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if multiple outcomes could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional or not.

It is. Gospel preached throughout the world, great prophet comes and renounces Christ, sets up a graven image that is bowed to, sets up something at the Temple Mount declaring it God, death to those who reject it, it's a group that beheads Christians, Ishmael's seed will not be God's children (Islam's father is Ishmael ), they make up 1/4 of Earth, they are represented by the sword, their belief is hellbent on conquest.

You need to read my arguments!!! I have an individual refute to each of the ‘prophecies’, I know for a fact that I addressed this ¼ thing, I have also addressed other ‘prophecies’ that violate this criteria (which includes everything you have used in your defence), BUT YOU HAVE NOT RESPONDED TO THEM!!!

I am not saying that all your ‘evidences’ violate all the criteria, but they all violate at least one, and the violation of one of these criteria’s is enough to dismantle the ‘prophecy’.


4.It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened be true but were believed to be true without solid evidence.

That's about as improbable as it gets.

What is as improbable as it gets? You have 12 ‘prophecies’ or are you referring to this criteria is improbable??? Maybe more than 7 words would be useful in the future!


5.It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it.

No one could have known Islam would appear around 700 AD fulfilling the book of Revelation in every way imaginable.

You need to read my arguments!!! I have an individual refute to each of the ‘prophecies’ that you have ignored. I addressed this ‘prophecy’ already! You cannot defend with a claim that I have refuted and you have not defended!!!

I am not saying that all your ‘evidences’ violate all the criteria, but they all violate at least one, and the violation of one of these criteria’s is enough to dismantle the ‘prophecy’.

Responding to “Islam 101”. Another prophecy for me to DIRECTLY RESPOND TO, perhaps you will read this one. 1 of 13 is doable! You claim that Allah dislikes the name ‘the king of kings’ and that is what Jesus is was named. I will give you 2 different refutes for that.

  1. 1. King of kings = god, all holy books disallow the worship of another god, so is it too much of a surprise that it disallows someone being called king of kings?
  2. 2. The Quran came after Christianity, perhaps this was a direct reference to Christianity so that Islamic followers are against Christianity.

It is no argument for a ‘prophecy’.

What are you even saying in "The beast of the Earth", is this an attempt at another ‘prophecy’? Is it a threat? What are you saying? So what that both the Quran and the bible both say that those who do not believe will be in ‘trouble’ during the rapture that people have been waiting for like 2000 years? Religion is almost always been based on fear (purpose of revelations, heaven and hell etc.), is it a surprise that these 2 religions follow this tradition as well, perhaps the Quran copied this from the bible as Christianity was ‘getting numbers’.

If you want to read the direct refutes that you did not defend, read from “Now to your direct "evidences".” to “Further on this, Babylon was not by the red sea " if that is even what you are saying?!?!”.

brontoraptor

Pro

Con:
"I am not saying that all your "evidences" violate all the criteria, but they all violate at least one, and the violation of one of these criteria"s is enough to dismantle the "prophecy"."

Such as?

*

Con:
"What is as improbable as it gets?"

That all of these prophecies would be fulfilled by one group from the future, and specifically a group (Islam) who were unknown in Jesus' day, yet were rejected by God in the Old Testament well before Islam existed.(Meaning, Ishmael's descendents)

So what we have is an OT renouncing of Ishmael's seed in Genesis by God. A second renouncing of Ishmael's seed in the NT in the book of Revelation only with a pure description of their future rejection of Christ and a description of their behavior, where exactly on planet Earth they set up their God, and their beheading and persecution of Christians in a time of world turmoil.

https://pppministries.wordpress.com...

The Bible tells us all of the nations that Christ comes against in the end of days. They are all Islamic today. Every...single... one. Yet when Revelation was written...Islam would not exist for another 700 years.

*

Con:
"What are you even saying in "The beast of the Earth?"

"Beast of Revelation"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...(Revelation)

"The Antichrist"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

"666"

http://youtu.be...

The Beast of the Earth is symbolically the Antichrist in the Bible. Islam is looking for their messiah, which literally matches the Biblical "Antichrist" in the end times to destroy Christians and Jews, and put all nonbelievers to death or under Islamic submission. Islam views the Mahdi, who fully resembles the Biblical Antichrist, but as their Islamic messiah. Muslims view the King of Kings (2nd coming of Christ) as the enemy. They call him the Dajjal. Keep in mind, the Bible's final words were written 700 years before Islam came to be, Muhammed could not read Greek(the only language the New Testament was written in at this time in history). He couldn't even read at all in any language including Arabic. And the kicker? Muhammed was demon possessed as a child and claimed he got his "revelation" from a demon according to Islam itself.

http://www.answering-islam.org...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

http://radicaltruth.net...

http://www.answering-islam.org...

*

Con:
"Additionally, you failed to mention unfulfilled biblical prophecy:"

Con never showed in this debate a constructed defense of this claim. Con quoted verse numbers for us to assume he's right.

*

(Videos: Islam and the Beast)

Islam beast 1

http://youtu.be...

Islam beast 2

http://youtu.be...

*

Further argument-

(Dr. James Gates interview)

http://youtu.be...

The equations used to describe the construct of the universe are Dual Self error correcting binary computer code. Not "they resemble computer code". They ARE computer code. Our reality was intelligently designed.

http://theawakenment.com...

*

Richard Dawkins, atheist biologist and author of "The God Delusion" in an interview said, " I suppose it's possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer..."

http://www.conservapedia.com...
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by UnhookedSchnook 7 months ago
UnhookedSchnook
I take 2 big issues. (1) You still have not responded to any of what are the body of my arguments, I spent a fair amount of time on them and you don't even respond and (2) you make an additional 2 argument every round!!! Even on the last round you made 2 arguments, this violates the structure and thus the rules. Why do you make arguments when you know full and well that I can not respond of them. Worst of all these arguments entail misquoting, an awful and disrespect thing to do.
Posted by Grandzam 7 months ago
Grandzam
lol pro broke the rules by following the round structure
Posted by Jam_Man 7 months ago
Jam_Man
I know the perfect person for you to debate (FoC, Follower of Christ). He is a devoted Christian that pulls a lot of evidence from the bible. Hope you like this person...
Posted by canis 7 months ago
canis
The christian god exist...Or not...It is a matter of your imagination..
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