The Instigator
CapAhab
Pro (for)
Winning
1 Points
The Contender
icaeousa2
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The Christian god is unmerciful compared to the Jewish G-d.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
CapAhab
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/15/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 11 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 388 times Debate No: 86626
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (6)
Votes (1)

 

CapAhab

Pro

Round 1 - Acceptance only
Round 2 - Opening argument
Round 3 - Rebuttals
Round 4 - Counter-Rebuttals
Round 5 - Closing Arguments and Closing Statements

Serious debates only.
icaeousa2

Con

I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
CapAhab

Pro

I would first like to thank my opponent.

It is usually believed that the god of the New Testament is merciful and the god of the old testament is not. First, let us deal with the trinitarian god of the New Testament (Jesus + holy spirit + father) and let us compare it to the G-d of the Hebrew Bible.

First, let us look at Ephesians 1:4-5

According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

So here we have god choosing before the foundation of the world who will be a believe in Jesus.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Romans 8

And again we have god who predestined some to believe in Jesus.

On the other side of the coin, if the christian god chose who will believe in Jesus.

Look at John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

So, basically, the few that believe in Jesus and are going to pass the eternity in Heaven with him were chosen by god not because of what they have done, but for an unknown reason to us. And those who do not believe in Jesus were simply not chosen, or in other word, god decided not to care about them! And what faith will attend them, hell? For a while, maybe, but worst, they will be thrown in the lake of fire forever and ever and ever. Thus the would not have been able to save themselves even if they would have like to.

Second, I would like to say that the god of the christian bible throw baby in hell. Most christians disagree with that, but there is no way the christian bible shows savlation for them.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him." John 3:36

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-- Romans 5:12

Even baby, die because they sin, and because they did not accept Jesus, they cannot come to the father. Most christians deny this fact, but some are honest: https://www.youtube.com...

On top of that, the Christian god will send someone in hell forever because of one sin.
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Finally, the Christian god needs blood! the Christian father was pleased to kill Jesus. This is due to a misunderstanding of the prophecy of Isaiah 53 "But the LORD was pleased To crush Him".

Now let us look at the Jewish G-d.

Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible G-d will send anybody to hell for one sin.

For his anger lasts only a moment,
but his favor lasts a lifetime; Psalm 30

Furthermore, G-d does not want anybody to perish: Ezekiel 18 :
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

G-d wants people to live and G-d is merciful!
But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. Ezekeil 18

Isaiah 1
"Come now, let us settle the matter,"
says the Lord.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,

For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us. Psalm 103

In fact, anybody that does good can go to Heaven, not only the Jewish people.

Another point in favour of the G-d of the Hebrew Bible is the fact that HELL is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew Bible. Thus, G-d does not send people in hell forever. The Hebrew Bible is not that clear of what happens after life. Here is the only bible verse that say there is a judment of the wicked person after life.
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt Daniel 12.

Also, G-d would not put your sin on anybody else (like Jesus).
For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child"both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die. Ezekiel 18.

So in conclusion, anybody can go to G-d, but only a few are selected by the christian god. You can see G-d's mercy throughout the Bible. Look at the book of Jonah and the book of Psalm. True, some instance, the G-d of the Hebrew will execute Judgment and it sound unmerciful. But G-d brings judgement and disaster everyday on the earth.

Let see why my opponent think the christian god is merciful and the Jewish G-d is not...

Thank you
icaeousa2

Con


Why the Jewish G-d is unmerciful




  • Jewish G-d sends wicked people to hell, a place of shame, everlasting contempt, and desolation





    • Daniel 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.




    • Daniel 12:10-11 - Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand. From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.




    • Psalm 110:5-6 -The Lord is at your right hand; he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.





  • The only way to escape this judgement is be righteous (i.e. not wicked). The only way to achieve righteousness is strict adherence to the Law as given to Moses by God





    • Ecclesiastes 7:20 Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.




    • The only way to become right with G-d (i.e. righteous) is through animal sacrifice, as prescribed in the Law.




    • Any time the people of Israel stopped following the law and turned to other gods, bad things happened to them as G-d’s punishment for not following the Law. (For numerous examples of this, see the book of Judges)





  • G-d only revealed this way to become right with him to a select group of people.





    • In fact G-d only chose to have relationships with one family, Abraham, and his descendants, and to some of Abraham’s predecessors.




    • People of other nations can only learn how to be righteous by the example set by the nation of Israel (which was not always a great example)




    • And the only way to become righteous is to become a Jew, and follow the law.




    • This means that one nation and race has a monopoly on salvation, everyone else is wicked and will be punished on judgement day.





  • In addition to this, the actions of G-d are extremely unmerciful.





    • In Exodus 12 God kills every firstborn child in Egypt unless their door is marked with the blood of a lamb. Only the Jews were given the information to avoid the death of the firstborn. This punishment was indiscriminate, and affected all Egyptians, regardless of whether or not it was deserved. Even poor people and babies who would have had no part in keeping the Israelites as slaves were not spared.




    • Often G-d’s punishment is arbitrary such as this.




    • 2 Kings 2:23-24 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!”He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.





      • G-d killed forty two boys because they were making fun of a prophet for being bald. This is not mercy.





    • The treatment of women in the law shows how unmerciful G-d is.





      • Leviticus 15:28-30“When the woman’s bleeding stops, she must count off seven days. Then she will be ceremonially clean. On the eighth day she must bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons and present them to the priest at the entrance of the Tabernacle.The priest will offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. Through this process, the priest will purify her before the LORD for the ceremonial impurity caused by her bleeding.





        • Women are considered unclean when they are on their period, and afterwards must offer two birds as sacrifice for their sin. And that sin is menstruating. G-d was the creator of menstruation, but he considers it a sin.





      • Deuteronomy 22:20-21 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death.





        • Why are men not held to this standard? If promiscuity is such an intolerable act then shouldn’t men also be stoned for it?






    • This passage also brings up another aspect of the nature of G-d that is inherently unmerciful. The punishment for many sins in the Law is stoning. If someone is stoned they are not given the chance to make an atoning sacrifice and therefore are considered wicked when they die. So the act of stoning, which G-d commands, ensures that that person’s soul will be eternally in hell.




    • G-d punishes people for the sins of their parents





      • Exodus 20:5 for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,




      • The third and fourth generations of children might not even know their predecessor who sinned. But regardless of whether they are righteous or not, they will be punished.




      • 2 Samuel 12:15 And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.





        • The child eventually died after seven days.




        • This was David’s punishment for committing adultery and murder.




        • The punishment was to kill a baby. This baby had not done anything to deserve this, but G-d specifically killed it.






    • G-d kills people because they complain about him killing them





      • Numbers 16:41 The next day the whole Israelite community grumbled against Moses and Aaron. “You have killed the Lord’s people,” they said..." "and the Lord said to Moses, 45 “Get away from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once.” And they fell facedown. 46 Then Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer and put incense in it, along with burning coals from the altar, and hurry to the assembly to make atonement for them. Wrath has come out from the Lord; the plague has started.” 47 So Aaron did as Moses said, and ran into the midst of the assembly. The plague had already started among the people, but Aaron offered the incense and made atonement for them. 48 He stood between the living and the dead, and the plague stopped. 49 But 14,700 people died from the plague, in addition to those who had died because of Korah.




      • It should be mentioned that Moses and Aaron killed because G-d told them to.





    • G-d commands his people to kill indiscriminately, men, women, and children.





      • They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys. - Joshua 6:21




      • the Lord our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down,together with his sons and his whole army. 34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors. - Deuteronomy 2:33




      • The Spirit of G-d helps Sampson kill random people because he lost a bet. Then the Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon him. He went down to Ashkelon, struck down thirty of their men, stripped them of everything and gave their clothes to those who had explained the riddle.” Judges 14: 19





    • God kills someone for refusing to have children with his dead brother’s wife “But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.” Genesis 38:9-10




    • God threatens cannibalism as a punishment. “27 “‘If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.” - Leviticus 26:27-29





The Christian God killed Annias and Sapphira, and eternally punishes people who don’t believe in Jesus. But accepting Jesus is way easier than following the Law, and if you don’t follow the Law, the Jewish G-d sends you to hell for being wicked. Instead of making animal sacrifices all the time, Jesus is the one sacrifice, so people don’t have to keep killing animals. And if you accept Jesus, God sends the Holy Spirit to help you be a good person. So compared to G-d, God is pretty merciful.
Debate Round No. 2
CapAhab

Pro

"Jewish G-d sends wicked people to hell, a place of shame, everlasting contempt, and desolation"

First, let us see what Judaism believe:
We do believe in a type of Hell, but not the one found in cartoons and joke books. Hell is not a punishment in the conventional sense; it is, in fact, the expression of a great kindness.
http://www.chabad.org...

In a way, we don't want murders to be unpunished! That's why Daniel 12:2 say Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

This is the only passage that looks like there is an hell. But the word "contempt" only happen in two places.
https://www.blueletterbible.org...
The word mean: an object of aversion:"abhorring, contempt.
We cannot conclude an hell as the Christian believe of pain an suffering.

Furthermore, only the wicked go there. Not everybody that does not believe in Jesus!

Psalm 110:5-6 talks about G-d protecting Israel. Furthermore, the Christian god says the same. All Old testament passages used by my opponent, the Christian god say it as well!

"The only way to achieve righteousness is strict adherence to the Law as given to Moses by God"
Non-Jews are nowhere obliged to keep the law. This was added by the god of the New Testament. The priest have specific requirements, women have specific requirements, men have specific requirement and Israel. Non-Jews are not bond to keep the law.

"Ecclesiastes 7:20 Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins."
Because of the LORD's great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail.
The Jewish G-d does not consider someone wicked after one sin!

"But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die.
Ezekiel 18:21 say that the wicked can turn from his wicked way and live!

"The only way to become right with G-d (i.e. righteous) is through animal sacrifice, as prescribed in the Law."
This is simply not true. The Christian god requires blood. The Jewish G-d requires repentance as shown on Ezekiel 18. If my opponent does not believe me, he may check this debate.
http://www.debate.org...

Prayer and repentance are cited here as effective means for securing atonement.
http://jewsforjudaism.org...

"Any time the people of Israel stopped following the law and turned to other gods, bad things happened to them as G-d"s punishment for not following the Law. (For numerous examples of this, see the book of Judges)"
G-d requires that the children of Israel should not worship other gods. True, but my opponent forgot to say that the christian god did the same,... And let's not forget that the foreign god sacrificed babies and people! Thus, was G-d wrong to do so for them to repent?

"G-d only revealed this way to become right with him to a select group of people."
Jews don't believe only Jews go to heaven.
http://www.jewfaq.org...

"In fact G-d only chose to have relationships with one family"
you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. Exodus 19:6
G-d chose Israel to be a nation that shows the example to the others. G-d wants everybody to know Him and He chose Israel to show His loving kindness to the whole earth.

"(which was not always a great example)"
People have a free will... I agree that Israel was not always a good example, nor was the church!

"This means that one nation and race has a monopoly on salvation, everyone else is wicked and will be punished on judgement day."
Gentile and Jews go to heaven if the are doing good (no perfection required)

"In addition to this, the actions of G-d are extremely unmerciful."
This applies to both the christian (old testament god) and Jewish G-d thus it is irrelevant to this debate. I will not go in details because, by doing so, my opponent actually say that the christian god is unmerciful! Because they believe the god of the old testament is the christian god.

"G-d punishes people for the sins of their parents"
This is just not true

" The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 "What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

"The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children"s teeth are set on edge"?
3 "As I live," says the Lord God, "you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

4 "Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die."

"But accepting Jesus is way easier than following the Law, "
As I say nobody can chose Jesus, Jesus chooses the one who will believe. The law is required only for Jews. Many more people are considered righteous for the Jewish G-d, then the Christian god.
icaeousa2

Con

In regards to predestination: Most major Christian denominations either reject predestination either completely, or they reject that God predestines people to hell. http://www.religionfacts.com... This means that Christians reject the idea that God chooses who goes to heaven or who goes to hell. Most Christians, excluding Puritans, some Calvinists, and probably some others, fully accept free will.

I concede that Christians view the God of the Old Testament as the same God of the New Testament. However, the way that God interacts with humanity in the Old Testament is very different from the way God acts in the New Testament, in spite of the numerous amount of scriptures that say that God is unchanging. Overlooking these scriptures and viewing the two as distinct, in regards to their actions (the afterlife not included), I still contend that that G-d is unmerciful in comparison to God.

I will also concede that most Jews do not believe in "hell" as a place of eternal punishment, while many Christians do (although there is a growing number of Christians who are annihilationists, and believe that instead of being sent to hell after death, a sinner merely ceases to exist - here is one such example/argument for it: http://reknew.org...) In addition to this, many Christians interpret Old Testament to support the existence of hell. Jews reject this interpretation, yes, but that means that the only difference between the Christian God of the Old Testament and the Jewish G-d is one's interpretation of scripture. This interpretation is entirely subjective and dependant upon one's preconceived notions of god.

Since it is impossible for a living human to know what happens after death, to definitively prove which of these interpretations is more correct is also impossible.

So: If Jews are right and the Old Testament does not support the existence of hell, then the Christian God is less merciful. If Christians are right and the Old Testament does support the existence of hell, then there are two more options: If you view the God of the Old Testament as distinct from the God of the Old Testament, then based off of their actions, the God of the New Testament is more merciful. If you view them as the same God, then being the same unchanging God, they are equally merciful.
Debate Round No. 3
CapAhab

Pro

"Most major Christian denominations either reject predestination either completely, or they reject that God predestines people to hell."
True, most denominations reject predestination. Why, because it is painfully unmerciful for god to do that. It does not change the fact that the NT teaches it! If you are not chosen, you are doomed to hell by a god that does not care to save you. There is no other way to read that verse and Jesus made it clear in the gospel of John that no one could come to Jesus, but him that the father draw near. Even if Jesus preach to them, they just could not come, because they were not chosen. And that is what the NT teaches, but people prefer to deny it, because it is too cruel. People love "Jesus loves you

"I still contend that that G-d is unmerciful in comparison to God. "
The god of the Christian is a tri-une god, thus one part may seem to be unmerciful, but that 1/3 part of god of the Old Testament is part of the god of the new testament."

"In addition to this, many Christians interpret Old Testament to support the existence of hell." Because it is so clear in the NT, then they can re-interpret the passage with the lenses of the NT.

"Since it is impossible for a living human to know what happens after death, to definitively prove which of these interpretations is more correct is also impossible."
What really happens does not matter for this debate:
Christian god, hell forever if you refuse Jesus.
Jewish G-d, Hell not forever. Any person can go to heaven.

"If you view the God of the Old Testament as distinct from the God of the Old Testament, then based off of their actions, the God of the New Testament is more merciful. "
NO, the New Testament adds new theology to the Hebrew Bible. If you look at the Hebrew Bible and what Jews believe, the Hebrew Bible G-d is more merciful.
icaeousa2

Con

icaeousa2 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
CapAhab

Pro

I think it's clear that the G-d of Judaism is merciful and only want the people to turn from their sins. I know I portrayed a christian god that most won't agree, but as per their own scripture, there is just no other possibility. I think people try to dissuade themselves that the christian god is different because it would be too cruel to see old grandma in hell just because she was not chosen. He chooses who will burn in hell and who will be save, but Judaism ask each one to repent and do good.

Thank you
icaeousa2

Con

icaeousa2 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by MaxLamperouge 10 months ago
MaxLamperouge
I think both are merciful, but can be angered.
I believe they are one and the same.
And what was this?
"We do believe in a type of Hell, but not the one found in cartoons and joke books. Hell is not a punishment in the conventional sense; it is, in fact, the expression of a great kindness.
http://www.chabad.org...... "
Jews believe in Hell. Its called Sheol in the scriptures.
Nowhere in the scriptures can I find a spiritual washing machine.
-A concerned friend

PS good debate all around though, great work both of you.
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
Maybe Christians believe so, but they are definitely not. Christians believe in a three god in one. Jews believe in one G-d. Christians worship Jesus as god. Jews don't. Christians believe in the non-testament. Jews don't

http://www.aish.com...
Posted by TheRustyToaster 1 year ago
TheRustyToaster
not involved but its the same god
Posted by Jonnykelly 1 year ago
Jonnykelly
Following this. Jesus is my homie.
Posted by SNP1 1 year ago
SNP1
This ought to be interesting.
Usually, the OT god is seen as being evil while he is seen as good in the NT, which is why some early Christian sects formed with the view that the god of the OT and the god that was the father of Jesus are separate gods.
Posted by The-Voice-of-Truth 1 year ago
The-Voice-of-Truth
You ought to obey your own rules and post your opening argument.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by U.n 11 months ago
U.n
CapAhabicaeousa2Tied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture.