The Instigator
brontoraptor
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Maimonides
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

The Christian trinity makes perfect sense

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/11/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 10 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 268 times Debate No: 93584
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (0)

 

brontoraptor

Pro

I will argue that the Christian concept of God being a trinity makes perfect sense.
Maimonides

Con

I will argue that the Christian concept of G-d being a trinity does not make perfect sense.

According to the concept of the trinity, G-d is divided into three beings: "The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." Not only is there no proof for this from the Bible, but it even contradicts the Bible!

(Deuteronomy 6:4) "Hear, O Israel: The L-rd is our G-d; the L-rd is one."

(Isaiah 44:6) "So said the L-rd, the King of Israel and his Redeemer the L-rd of Hosts, "I am first and I am last, and besides Me there is no G-d."

(Isaiah 46:9) "Remember the first things of old, that I am G-d and there is no other; I am G-d and there is none like Me."

(Zechariah 14:9) "And the L-rd shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the L-rd be one, and His name one."

I do not think that you can get any clearer than that. G-d is one, not three. There is no one beside Him, and none like Him. The L_rd is one and His name is one.

Perhaps the biggest problem with the trinity is that it includes a human being: Jesus. The Bible clearly states that G-d is not a man.

(Hosea 11:9) "I will not execute the kindling of My anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim, for I am G-d and not a man. In your midst is the Holy One, and I will not enter a city."

(Numbers 23:19) "G-d is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?"

One can argue that Numbers 23:19 only means that G-d does not lie like a man, but that is incorrect. The more accurate translation is like this: "G-d is not a man and (therefore) does not lie." The Hebrew word here is "uven (transliteration)," which means "and" or "therefore." This word is used the same way in (Genesis 15:2) "And Abram said, "O L-rd G-d, what will You give me, since I am going childless, and (uven) the steward of my household is Eliezer of Damascus?""

If G-d is not a man, how can Jesus be part of the trinity?
Debate Round No. 1
brontoraptor

Pro

Con:
(Isaiah 44:6) "So said the L-rd, the KING OF ISRAEL and his Redeemer the L-rd of Hosts, "I am FIRST and I am LAST, and besides Me there is no G-d."

In Revelation 22:13, Jesus says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

(Matthew 27:37)
"Above his head they placed the written charge against him: this is jesus, the KING OF THE JEWS."

*

Con referenced the Old Testament. I will do the same:

(Isaiah 9:6)
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

So a child, a son, will be:

1)Wonderful counselor
2)Mighty God
3)Everlasting Father
4)Prince of Peace

1)Wonderful counselor

(John 14:26)
"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will TEACH you all things and will REMIND YOU of everything I have said to you."

2)Mighty God

(John 20:28)(To Jesus)
"Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!""

(Matthew 28:9)(To Jesus)
When they realized it was He, they "came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him."

3)Everlasting Father

(Luke 23:46)
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "FATHER, into your hands I commit my spirit."

*

Old Testament references the "Holy Spirit"-

(Isaiah 63:11)
"Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them?"

*

Old Testament references God as our "Father"-

(Isaiah 63:16)
For You are our FATHER, though Abraham does not know us And Israel does not recognize us You, O LORD, are our FATHER, Our Redeemer from of old is Your name.

(Deuteronomy 32:6)
"Do you thus repay the LORD, O foolish and unwise people? Is not He your FATHER who has bought you? He has made you and established you.

(Isaiah 64:8)
"But now, O LORD, You are our FATHER, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand."

(Psalm 103:13)
"Just as a FATHER has compassion on his children, So the LORD has compassion on those who fear Him."

(Jeremiah 3:19)
"Then I said, 'How I would set you among My sons And give you a pleasant land, The most beautiful inheritance of the nations!' And I said, 'You shall call Me, My FATHER, And not turn away from following Me.'

(Psalm 68:5)
A FATHER of the fatherless and a judge for the widows, Is God in His holy habitation.

(Jeremiah 31:9)
"With weeping they will come, And by supplication I will lead them; I will make them walk by streams of waters, On a straight path in which they will not stumble; For I am a FATHER to Israel."

bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God,-Fatherhood-Of

*

(John 1:1-3)
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

"He was with God in the beginning."

"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

OLD TESTAMENT-

(Isaiah 48:13)
"Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together."

(John 1:14)
"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

*

Con:
(Zechariah 14:9)
"And the L-rd shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the L-rd be one, and His name one."

(Phillipians 2:10)
"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth."

*

Con:
"The Bible clearly states that G-d is not a man."

1 John 5:7
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

(Matthew 28:19)
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit."

(Isaiah 9:6)
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

*

Con:
"If G-d is not a man, how can Jesus be part of the trinity?"

There's a difference. Jesus was/is fully God, fully man. He is not "just a man".

*

(Isaiah 62:8)
"The LORD has sworn by his right hand."

(Psalm 89:13)
"You have a strong arm; Your hand is mighty, Your right hand is exalted."

(Psalm 16:11)
"You will make known to me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; In Your right hand there are pleasures forever."

(Psalm 48:10)
As is Your name, O God, So is Your praise to the ends of the earth; Your right hand is full of righteousness.

(Psalm 60:5)
That Your beloved may be delivered, Save with Your right hand, and answer us!

(Psalm 20:6)
Now I know that the LORD saves His anointed; He will answer him from His holy heaven With the saving strength of His right hand.

JESUS-

(Mark 14:62)
Jesus said, "I Am. And you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God's right hand.
Maimonides

Con

Quoting the "New Testament" does not prove that it is true, for the same reason that quoting the Quran does not prove that Islam is true. When analyzing a supposedly holy book, you must compare it to what was written before, which in this case is the Hebrew Bible (which you call "the Old Testament").

*

Isaiah 9 : 5 [6]

One can argue that the phrases "Mighty G-d" and "Everlasting Father" cannot be incorporated as part of a man"s name, and therefore Isaiah teaches that the Messiah has to be not only a man, but G-d as well. That this entire reasoning is incorrect may be seen from the name Elihu, "My G-d is He," which refers to an ordinary human being (see 1 Samuel 1 : 1, Job 32 : 2, 1 Chronicles 12 : 20). A similar misunderstanding of Scripture may be seen in claims revolving around the name Immanuel, "G-d is with us." The simple fact is that it is quite common in the Bible for human beings to be given names that have the purpose of declaring or reflecting a particular attribute of G-d, e.g., Eliab, Eliada, Elzaphan, Eliakim, Elisha, Eleazar, Tavel, Gedaliah. So why is "El Gibbor" (Mighty G-d) any different?

Isaiah is known for presenting his message through the use of prophetic names (see Isaiah 7 : 3, 8 : 3). In Isaiah 9 : 6 the prophet expounds his message by formulating a prophetic name for Hezekiah. The words of this name form a sentence expressive of Gd's greatness, which will become manifest in the benefits to be bestowed upon the future king in his lifetime. Thus, the name, though borne by the king, serves, in reality, as a testimonial to G-d. Hezekiah is called "a wonderful counselor" because this name is a sign, which foretells G-d's plan to help him save Jerusalem from the Assyrians.
(Isaiah 37 : 6-7) "And Isaiah said unto them: "Thus shall ye say to your master: Thus saith the Lord: Be not afraid of the words that thou hast heard, wherewith the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed Me. Behold, I will put a spirit in him, and he shall hear a rumour, and shall return unto his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land.""
Hezekiah is called "the mighty G-d" because this name is a sign that foretells G-d's defense of Jerusalem through the miraculous sudden mass death of Sancherib"s army.
(Isaiah 37 : 33-35) "Therefore thus saith the L-rd concerning the king of Assyria: He shall not come unto this city, nor shoot an arrow there, neither shall he come before it with shield, nor cast a mound against it. By the way that he came, by the same shall he return, and he shall not come unto this city, saith the L-rd. For I will defend this city to save it, for Mine own sake, and for My servant David's sake."
Hezekiah is called "the everlasting Father" because this name is a sign, which foretells that G-d will add years to his life.
(Isaiah 38 : 5) ""Go, and say to Hezekiah: Thus saith the L-rd, the G-d of David thy father: I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears; behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.""
Hezekiah is called "the ruler of peace" because this name is a sign, which foretells that G-d would be merciful to him. Punishment for lack of faith in the Almighty will be deferred and peace granted during the last years of his rule.
(Isaiah 39 : 8) "Then said Hezekiah unto Isaiah: "Good is the word of the L-rd which thou hast spoken.' He said moreover: 'If but there shall be peace and truth in my days.""

*

The Hebrew Bible does mention the Holy Spirit, and it does refer to G-d as the Father, but this does not prove that G-d is divided into three, and it does not prove that Jesus is part of the trinity. If G-d were divided into three, it would mean that each of those three sections is limited. This contradicts the fundamental principle of all Abrahamic religions: Gd is unlimited because he is the creator of all limitations, and he is not subject to the laws of his own creation.

*

It seems that even the authors of the New Testament did not believe in any trinity. (Matthew 27:46) "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My G-d, my G-d, why hast thou forsaken me?"

To who is he speaking? If he is G-d, it would mean that he is speaking to himself.

If Jesus is G-d, why would he even ask the question? He should know the answer.

The Hebrew Bible is very clear that G-d is not a man (Numbers 23:19, Hosea 11:9).
Debate Round No. 2
brontoraptor

Pro

Con:
"To who is he speaking? If he is G-d, it would mean that he is speaking to himself."

Exactly. Another manifestation of himself.

One must understand that time has no tense to God. As is demonstrated by gravity's effect on time in our reality, time itself can be stopped in our reality per the space time continuum and relativity. To God there is no time "tense".

*

Seeing time is meaningless, think of yourself as a time traveler. You go back in time to your 5 year old self. Is he you? Yes. Are you 2 different persons? Yes. Are you the same being? Yes.

---

The Father
God is the Father, omnipotent, unchanged, not flesh in this manifestation, the highest version of himself.

---

Holy Spirit-
God is a spirit. He moves through us and communicates with us in this manifestation.

Matthew 3:16
"After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him."

John 14:26
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My [Jesus"] name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

---

Jesus-
God is one of us, a "God-man", flesh and bones in Jesus' manifestation.

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

---

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us."

*

-The Spirit is God
-The spirit is Christ

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

1 Corinthians 6:11
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

Ephesians 2:18
For through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father."

*

(Exodus 3:14)
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

(John 8:58)
"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am."

*

In 1 Kings Elijah meets "the Lord" at Mount Horeb. God covered him.

https://www.biblegateway.com...

Moses met "The Lord" at Mount Horeb. God covered him. His face was transfigured.

http://antipas.net...

Jesus at the transfiguration appeared to Elijah and Moses to tell them what to do. He was transfigured.

http://www.gotquestions.org...

http://m.ncregister.com...

*

(2 Peter 1:1)
"To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ."

(John 14:9-11)
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

*

(Link with verses saying Jesus is God)

http://bugman123.com...

*

-Jesus said that Moses wrote about Him:

If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.
John 5:46

-Where did Moses write about Jesus?

(Genesis
"And I will put enmity between you and the woman,"and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

(Deuteronomy 32:43)
"Rejoice, you nations, with his people, for he will avenge the blood of his servants; he will take vengeance on his enemies, and make atonement for his land and people."

http://www.bibletrack.org...

*

Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "When I shall raise up for David a righteous Branch; and He will reign as king and act wisely and do justice and righteousness in the land. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely; and this is His name by which He will be called, `The LORD our righteousness.'" (Jeremiah 23:5-6)

But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity." (Micah 5:2)

www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html

*

https://jewsforjesus.org...

http://www.gotquestions.org...
Maimonides

Con

It would be unnecessary for G-d to speak to "another manifestation of himself," because He is able to know His own thoughts and plans. The only case where He would have to speak to Himself would be if He was limited to the laws of His own creation. However, the impression that we get from the Bible is that G-d is not limited, but that He is omnipotent and omniscient.

*

Genesis 1:26, 3:22. The "our" and "us" in these verses are not proof that G-d is a trinity. The Bible was probably referring to the angels, who were created before Adam was created.

*

(Genesis 3:15) "And I will put enmity between you and the woman,"and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."
This is not a Messianic prophecy by any stretch of the imagination. Nothing in this verse explicitly refers to a messiah, but even if it does, why should we believe that Jesus is this messiah?

*

Deuteronomy 32:43 is not about the messiah, it is about the nation of Israel. The context supports this. (Deuteronomy 32:6-10) "Is this how you repay the L-rd, you disgraceful, unwise people?! Is He not your Father, your Master? He has made you and established you. Remember the days of old; reflect upon the years of [other] generations. Ask your father, and he will tell you; your elders, and they will inform you. When the Most High gave nations their lot, when He separated the sons of man, He set up the boundaries of peoples according to the number of the children of Israel. Because the L-rd's portion is His people Jacob, the lot of His inheritance. He found them in a desert land, and in a desolate, howling wasteland. He encompassed them and bestowed understanding upon them; He protected them as the pupil of His eye." The entire chapter is about the Israelites, the descendants of Jacob, whose mission is to be a light for the nations. (Isaiah 42 : 6) "I am the L-rd; I called you with righteousness and I will strengthen your hand; and I formed you, and I made you for a people's covenant, for a light to nations."
(Isaiah 49 : 6) "And He said, "It is too light for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the besieged of Israel, but I will make you a light of nations, so that My salvation shall be until the end of the earth.""
When the Israelites are righteous, they help the entire world. (Genesis 26 : 4-5) "And I will multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens, and I will give your seed all these lands, and all the nations of the earth will bless themselves by your seed, Because Abraham hearkened to My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My instructions."

*

My opponent still did not explain how the following verses are not clear contradictions of the Christian concept of the trinity.

(Deuteronomy 6:4) "Hear, O Israel: The L-rd is our G-d; the L-rd is one."

(Isaiah 44:6) "So said the L-rd, the King of Israel and his Redeemer the L-rd of Hosts, "I am first and I am last, and besides Me there is no G-d."

(Isaiah 46:9) "Remember the first things of old, that I am G-d and there is no other; I am G-d and there is none like Me."

(Zechariah 14:9) "And the L-rd shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the L-rd be one, and His name one."
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by whiteflame 10 months ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: migmag// Mod action: Removed<

7 points to Pro. Reasons for voting decision: well said

[*Reason for removal*] Not an RFD.
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Posted by Maimonides 10 months ago
Maimonides
Jews usually don't write out the names of G-d because if it is printed it can be defaced.
Posted by Conservatism 10 months ago
Conservatism
Why is it you don't add the O in Lord or God?
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Therefore God wants us to fill our voices with his Name and glorify him.
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