The Christians Are Polytheists
Debate Rounds (5)
"Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is rightly guided." (the Quran 16:125)
Islam and Christianity; two largest religions which have the most followers in all around the world.  However, Islam is the fast growing religion and it has been predicted that Muslim population will surpass Christians  until the promise of God will be fulfilled perfecly:
"It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although those who associate others with Allah dislike it." (61:9)
Nowadays, the truth of Islam is concealed behind the media and the misconceptions which are being spread by its enemies. But we know that they may coneal the truth but they can never destroy it. So some day and somehow, people will discover the truth.
Anyway, comparimg Islam to Christianity, we find some similarities and some differences in their teachings and beliefs. One of those things which causes disagreement among Muslims and Christians is their views of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him).
The Christians say that God has taken a son and put their faith in Jesus as if they are worshipping him! On the other hand, Islam has denied the divinity of Jesus and says that he is just one of the five greatest Prophets.
"O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, 'Three'; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son." (4:171)
But which one of these religions does speak the truth? Which one of these religions can show us the Straight Path?
The excess and exaggeration on the part of religious leaders and saints has always been a cause of deviation from the truth; and losing the right way to God. On this account, Islam strictly warns and forbids such exaggerations, because people's excesses in their religion lead them to blasphemy.
Jews show a lot of vain zeal and arrogance, mingled with vanity, in the direction of racialism, exclusiveness, and their saying that they are the elects of God; and that the fire of Hell will burn them not but for a few days, and such false and unreasonable claims. On the other hand, we see the Christians having raised the prophet Jesus to a deity, and in a rank of equality with God! And surely this is because they know not who the God is! They venerate Mary almost to idolatry. They attribute a physical son to God, and have falsely forged their trinity, which is the union of three hypostases (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in one Godhead so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons as to individuality!
Since the coming of Prophet Muhammad (sawa), Islam has alway been fighting against polytheism clearly:
"Say, 'O disbelievers, I do not worship what you worship. Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship. Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion.'" (the Quran 109)
And God forgives all sins but polythesim:
"Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin." (4:48)
But as we can see, Christianity has accepted polytheism within itself! We believe that the Christians like Hindu people believe in three gods. But they themselves always deny it by quoting the Bible, "Hear, O Israel: The"Lord"our God, the"Lord"is one." (Deuteronomy 6:4) but their sayings and beliefs shows the opposite!
In order for my opponent to win the debate, he must prove logically that he believes in One God, without quoting the Bible. And I really want to see how he does so wuthout denying the divinity or sonship of Jesus.
Thank you very much for allowing me to participate in this debate with you concerning the delicate issue of the nature of God. I agree to all your terms and will, Lord willing, obey them to the fullest. Thank you for this great privilege and I wish you the best of luck!
I would first like to start off by asking a very simple question that should give plenty of credidence to my assertion.
If Allah wanted to, could he take on a Trinitarian nature?
I'm in no way saying that he did, but instead I'm merely asking you if he could if he wanted to.
The Muslims is now confronted with 2 possibilities which are these...
1. Allah could if he wanted to.
2. Allah couldn't.
Most Muslims, I assume, would agree with the first one which does indeed show that God could be a trinity if he wanted to.
Any Muslims who accepted option 2 are inevertently calling God weak and saying he's not All Powerful.
If the Muslim has agreed with one of these 2 options then he is a step closer to logical scuicide.
Now we get to the big issue. Is God Tawhid( Islamic Theology of God) or Trinity( Christian Theology of God) ?
I saw that you said I can't use Scripture to prove my claims which seems a bit strange considering your using the Quran to prove yours. I would politely ask if you could change these rules, but if you don't want to then I will continue to respect your decision.
Did Christians elevate Jesus to Godhood?
Well the simple answer to this is no we did not. We have historical sources from the Romans, Early Christians, Rabbinicals, and even Temple authorities that all say that the man Christ Jesus claimed to be God. The overwhelming historical and archeological evidence confirms that Jesus claimed divinity. An ancient church was recently discovered in the Valley of Meggido and inside of it was a tablet that read as such. "This Tablet is Dedicated to our God Jesus Christ." This ancient church has been dated as the second oldest one in history. Pliny the younger also wrote about the Christians saying that "They gathered on a fix day every week and say to Jesus a hymn as to a God." These 2 facts alone should be enough proof that Jesus was worshiped as God by his earliest followers. If this isn't enough then we also have the writings of the Ealry Church Fathers. I can't stress how important the Church Fathers were considering many of them actually saw The Lord Jesus himself and were all disciples of the original 12. These Fathers were all good friends and students of the Apostles and were each given the authority to carry on the message of the Blessed Savior and were sent forth by the Apostles themselves.
Now we have a question. Did the Church Fathers believe Jesus was God?
Yes they did! We have the majority of their writings to this day and they all agree on the same doctrinal issues conceding The Lord. They all believed Jesus was God which shows that there teachers the Apostles also beloved this.
Lastly we have the greatest piece of evidence which is the Gospels and Epsistles themselves. I know my opponent sees them as corrupted but this is a complete historical blunder considering all the evidence we have in the Gospels favor.
Thanks for this round Julia and I'll turn it over to you.
Thank you so much for accepting my challenge! Wa Min Allaha Tawfiq!
First I must tell you a little about your misunderstanding. I never said that you are not allowed to quote the Bible at all. I meant that you cannot quote the verses about the Oneness of God (like that verse I mention) to prove that you believe in One God.
To the reply of your very simple question, read this Hadith narrated from Jesus:
"Saten said to Jesus, 'Does your Lord have the power to put the earth into an egg without reducing the size of the earth or enlarging the egg?'
Then Jesus said, "Woe to you, for weakness is not attributed to Allah, but what you are talking about cannot be done and it is illogical."
We all believe that Allah doesn't do something in vein and porpuseless. And also, Allah doesn't do an illogical thing which is not wisdom and reason behind it.
If you let me, I want to answer your question with another question:
Of course weakness cannot be attributed to Allah. But why should He take a trinitarian nature and what can be the reason and wisdom behind it?
"Exalted is He and high above what they say by great sublimity." (The Quran 17:43)
Christians assert that God is a trinity, three persons in one substance, while Muslims bear witness to Tawhid the absolute unity of the Supreme Being, Allah. They also believe that they only go to God's kingdom through Jesus. But will this belief truely save them or lead them directly to the Hell?
"Do not make [as equal] with Allah another deity and [thereby] become censured and forsaken." (The Quran17:22)
"And, do not make [as equal] with Allah another deity, lest you be thrown into Hell, blamed and banished." (17:39)
My opponent probably doesn't know that the early Chriatians had denied the divinity of Jesus. They believed that Jesus was just a prophet:
"The crowds answered, 'This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.'" (Matthew 21:11)
"History shows that the Christians who lived during the early centuries of the Christian Era regarded Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah while rejecting his divinity. These Christians who are called "Ebionites" rejected Paul as anapostate from the Law.
The Ebionites are described as emphasizing the"oneness of God and the humanity of Jesus as the biological son of both"Mary and Joseph, who by virtue of his righteousness, was chosen by God to be the"messianic prophet like"Moses.. Paul Addae and Tim Bowes write that the Ebionites were faithful to the original teachings of"Jesus and thus shared Islamic views about Jesus' humanity, though the"Islamic view of Jesus. may conflict with the view of some Ebionites regarding the virgin birth and the crucifixion. 
As we can see, the beliefs of Ebionites were really close to Muslims'. And it is reported the first Muslims were among Ebionites.
Another person who rejected Trinity was Micheal Servetus.
"He rejected the classical conception of the Trinity, stating that it was not based on the Bible. He argued that it arose from teachings of Greek philosophers, and he advocated a return to the simplicity of the Gospels and the teachings of the early Church Fathers that he believed pre-dated the development of Nicene trinitarianism. Servetus hoped that the dismissal of the trinitarian dogma would make Christianity more appealing to believers in Judaism and Islam, which had preserved the unity of God in their teachings. According to Servetus, trinitarians had turned Christianity into a form of "tritheism", or belief in three gods.
He was arrested in Geneva and burnt at the stake as a heretic by order of the city's Protestant governing council. 
Servetus claimed that Trinity was not based on the Bible. And other Christians agree with him too.
Edmund Fortman writes in his book, The Triune God: "The New Testament writers ... give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons ... Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead."
"Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds." 
"The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the (Trinity) idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognized the ... Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One." 
" At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian . . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament and other early Christian writings." 
As we can see, it seems that the Trinity doctrine is not based on the teachings of the Bible. It has been added to Christianity later. But how and why?
Subhanallah! I seek refuge in Allah! I am suprised at my opponent who clearly says that Jesus is God...
He says that Jesus claimed to be God. But I fail to see how a person who has a God can claim to be God...
"Jesus said, 'Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (John 20:17)
However, I want my opponent:
1. To prove that to believe in the divinity of Jesus doesn't violate the Oneness of God;
2. To explain how Jesus Christ claimed to be God.
3. To explain why God should have a trinitarian nature.
 "The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology"
""The Paganism in Our Christianity."
 "Encyclop"dia of Religion and Ethics."
I would like to start off by saying sorry for misunderstanding your comment on quoting from the Bible to prove my point, and I think I understand it better now.
I enjoyed reading the Hadith that you put down, but once again it doesn't have much validity in this argument considering it was written hundreds of years after the time of Jesus Christ.
Why should Allah take a Trinitarian state and what's the wisdom behind it?
Well that's a great question Julia and the best answer to this would be because he wanted to. God didn't have to take upon himself a Trinity, but he decided to do it in order to bring glory to his name. We can never really know God's great standard of wisdom and trying to figure it out would be a waste of time. I do have one opinion though on why he took this state on himself. The simple answer is because it helps us humans appreciate and understand God much more. Having 3 distinct persons in his unity allows for us to be able to see him in 3 different ways. On one hand we see God the Son who loved us so much that he was willing to shed his blood and die on that wretched cross for us. We also see God the Father show love by sending his only begotten Son to ransom us back to him. If you know anything about the relationship between a Father and Son, you'll realize that it's one thing to lay down your own life for your children, but it's just as hard, if not harder to send your only son to his death. This is the Love of God and it truly represents the Trinity.
I see that you brought up Mathew 21:11, but lets remember not to take this out of context. Just before and after the verse we see the Children singing praise and worship songs to him by screaming "Hosanna to the Son of David! Glory to God in the Highest!" The Temple authorities rightfully saw this as worship and confronted Jesus with the "blasphemy" the children were saying. Jesus then told them that if these little kids didn't praise him as the Holy One then the very rocks would cry out proclaiming his Majesty. We also need to realize that this is what the crowd was saying. This goes hand in hand with what the crowd said earlier when they thought that Jesus was a mere prophet. Peter then chimed in saying this "You are the Christ and the Son of the Living God." Jesus blessed Peter for this answer and gave him the promise of the keys of Heaven.
I also see that you brought up the Ebionites and I would like to discuss them for a little bit.
Strangely enough, the first few places we actually see mention of the Ebionites is from the Church Fathers appointed by the Blessed Apostles. The Church Fathers, mostly Iraneaus and Justin Martyr, condemned them in their writings as early gnostic sects that had taken on heretical teachings and left the original Faith. According to new historical evidence, we are seeing that the Ebionites may not have been as old as we once thought and are now seen to have sprung up after the Fall of Jerusalem where they took on several Christians beliefs, but refused to join the mainstream Christians and instead formed several smaller cults that moved always from Israel and eventually settled in North Western Arabia. It is from here that most scholars believe Muhammed got his beliefs and he may well have seen them as Christians when they historically were not. The early Apostles themselves were confronting many of these false gnostic sects in their days and even mention some of them by saying that they "deny Jesus is Lord" and deny that "Jesus has come in the flesh." Historical and archeological evidence seems to confirm that from the earliest days of Christianity that there was the main stream Christians beliefs that were established by the Apostles and preserved by Church Fathers, and there were gnostic beliefs that opposed them. The Ebionites were one of these.
I also agree that we should return to the teachings of the early Church Fathers and here are a couple of them.
Ignatius of Antioch- "For our God Jesus Christ was conceived by Mary according to God's plan."
Ignatius- "When God appeared in Human for to give us Eternal Life."
- "For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he's in the Father."
Polycarb( Disciple of John)- "Who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and his Father."
Epistle of Barnabas( Written 70-130)- "For he is Lord of the whole world that he submitted to humans."
Justin Martyr- "And that Christ being Lord and God the Son."
These are just a couple and there are hundreds more from the disciples of Peter, Paul, John, and Andrew.
I'll put down some Bible verses proving the Trinity in the comments if you'd like.
Thanks Julia and back to you.
Researching on the history of polytheists and ancient religions, we find out that the doctrine of Trinity or worshipping the Triune God was a part of their beliefs:
"The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches... This Greek philosopher's (Plato, 4th century BC) conception of the divine trinity... can be found in all ancient (pagan) religions" 
On the other hand, we cannot find the term "Trinity" in the Bible. The early church father Tertullian (c. 155-230), who wrote in Latin, is believed to have first used this term to describe God:
"The term 'Trinity' does not appear in scripture" 
It can, therefore, be seen that the concept of a Trinity of divine beings was not an idea put forth by Jesus or any other prophets. This doctrine, now subscribed to by Christians all over the world, is entirely man-made in origin:
"The Doctrine of the Trinity - hammered out over the course of three centuries of doctrinal controversy against modalism and subordinationism" 
Taking these points into consideration, we can conclude that Christianity, after the departure of Jesus, had been influenced by ancient religions. the Trinity is based on Greek Philosophy and the concepts of three as one come from other religions especially Hinduism.
Let's compare Hindu Trinity to Christian Trinity:
"The Hindu Trinity also called Trimurti (meaning three forms), is the"representation of the three manifestations of the Supreme Reality, as Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Brahma symbolizes creation, Vishnu preservation and renewal, and Shiva dissolution or destruction necessary for recreation. It must be understood that the members of the Hindu Trinity are not three different and independent gods, but three aspects of one Supreme Reality called Bramh by the seers of the Upanishads. 
"We teach that the one true God. is the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, three distinct persons, but of one and the same divine essence, equal in power, equal in eternity, equal in majesty, because each person possesses the one divine essence" - Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod)
The above quote reminded me of this verse, "Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." (1 Corinthains 8:6)
The Trinity teaches us, "There is only One God; the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit!"
Hindu Trinity: The manifestation of"One person as the Godhead in three forms. Hindus say that they represent three"properties of one god.
Christian Trinity: One substance of Godhead in which there are three persons equal in status. As you said, they show us God in three different ways.
The Deities in Hinduism:
1. Brahma; the creator
2. Vishnu; the preserver
3. Shiva; the destroyer
The Deities in Christianity:
1. God the Father
2. God the Son
3. The Holy Spirit
Although some Christians try to deny that their Trinity is not based on Hinduism, we don't see many differences between them. Among the many perversions by which Christianity has been afflicted, trinity is the worst of all. It is a forged Christian doctrine that might have been taken from Hinduism.
Inshallah, I will explain how Christian Trinity took shape in my next argument. I just mention that after it was hammered out, the Churches changed the Bible to support this doctrine.
And I find it interesting that you have quoted the first Epistle of John to show that Trinity is Biblical. Because I cannot find such statement in new versions of the Bible.
"This is the one who came by water and blood"Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." (1 John 5:6-8)
It only appears in the older editions of the King James Version and has been omitted in the most recent edition of the Revised Version. It is not written in the New American Standard Bible, the New English Bible and the New International Version.  Because such statement does not appear in the older Greek manuscripts. Christian scholars have admitted that this statement is definitely a "later addition" to Biblical text, and it is not found in any of today's versions of the Bible.
"The famous interpolation after 'three witnesses' is not printed even in RSV. and rightly. It cites the heavenly testimony of the Father, the logos, and the Holy Spirit, but is never used in the early trinitarian controversies. No respectable Greek MS contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th century Latin text, it entered the Vulgate and finally the NT of Erasmus." 
Likewise, Matthew 28:19 has been added later,
"All but the most conservative of scholars agree that at least the latter part of this command was inserted later. The formula occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, and we know from the only evidence available (the rest of the New Testament) that the earliest Church did not baptize people using these words - baptism was 'into' or 'in' the name of Jesus alone. Thus it is argued that the verse originally read 'baptizing them in my name' and then was expanded to work in the dogma. In fact, the first view put forward by German critical scholars as well as the Unitarians in the nineteenth century, was stated as the accepted position of mainline scholarship as long ago as 1919, when Peake's commentary was first published: 'The church of the first days did not observe this world-wide commandment, even if they new it. The command to baptize into the threefold name is a late doctrinal expansion.'" 
Brother, if you claim that Jesus is God, you admit that you are polytheist.
If you prove that you worship one God, you deny the divinity of Jesus.
Now, please prove me. How does Trinity not contradict the Oneness of God?
If you use the Bible to prove that you believe in one God, I will quote the Scriptures to deny the divinity of Jesus.
 Nouveau Dictionaire Universel 1870
 Catholic Encyclopedia 1991
 Peakes Commentary on the Bible, page 1038
 For Christ's sake, Tom Harpur, p. 103
"It is obvious you don't know who God is." - Considering you just made an unjust assertion with no factual evidence to support your claim I don't see much validity here. What if I said you obviously don't know God because you deny Jesus is God. Do I not have just as much evidence, which is none, as you to make this claim?
Does the Bible really belittle God?
No it actually exalts him! The fact that he came as a man to shed his precious divine blood for our sins and that he walked along side Adam as a friend and talked with him shows an incredible amount of love and friendship. Muslims wrongfully conclude that this makes him look weak and inglorious when the opposite is true. If God came down from his Heavenly Throne because he valued us more than his own Majesty, does this not bring more Glory and Honor to His name then we could ever imagine? I also saw that you made the claim that since God didn't overpower Jacob then he's somehow weaker. God gave up purposely to Jacob in order to prove a point and give him a message. If an adult is wrestling a 5 year old and he purposely loses then does that mean he's weaker than the child. Noooo!!!
Is the Trinity a pagan tradition?
Well I will admit that some non christians had things similar to the trinity, but how does that mean the trinity is wrong? We also need to make it clear that there were also monotheistic Faiths back then, but does that mean all religions who worship One God came from these? Just because someone had a similar belief doesn't make you wrong. There is also no historical or archeological evidence that Christians copied these ideas from these later sources.
I hate to change the subject, but it does seem a bit hypocritical considering Muslims themselves will tell you that lots of the their core doctrines came from paganism. Here are a couple....
- Veneration of the Black Stone
- Praying 5 times a day towards Mecca
- Fasting on the tenth of Muharram
-Tawaf between Safa and Mara
- Requirement of Ihram
- Circulating around Kabba 7 times
- Crescent moon symbol
There are hundreds more, but I think this will suffice.
Does the term trinity not appear in Scripture?
Well yes, your absolutely right, the word doesn't, but the meaning and components of the word does.
Is the word Tawhid in the Quran?????? Nope
Is 1 John 5:7 not supposed to be in the Bible?
No, actually many scholars have stopped using this argument for the following reasons.
- The verse itself predates Codex Vaticanius and Sinaticus based on the fact that early Christians and Bishops quoted these verses from the time of the Early Church. Some of the Church Fathers who quote these verses are Terrullian, Prsicillian, Cyprian, Idasius, Authenius, Aurelius Augustine, and several Orthodox African writers.
- Many early Christian documents have it including the Speculum, Wianbergenisis, 3 witnesses of heaven, Historia persecutionius, minuscule 635, 88, 629, Latin vulgate, old Latin texts, best preserved Greek manuscript texts, Waldensians Bibles, and even Nestl" in his Greek New Testament based off the Alexandrian manuscripts admits it should be there.
- The Waldensians preserved it in the Ancient Latin Bibles which could be traced from the days of the Apostles themselves.
Mathew 28:19 should also be there based on quotes from early church Fathers and the oldest extra Biblical Christian writing called the Didache from the first century says......
"And concerning baptism baptize as follows. In the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in living water. If there is not enough water, then pour it on their heads 3 times( Trinitarian Formula) in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
Thanks back to you
PS please leave the next argument short so I can fit in why the trinity does not contradict the oneness of God. My phone gets Janky after I put a long message down :)
- When we ask, "Why did God not owerpower or defeat Jacob in wrestling? Was he powerless?"
They answer, "God loved Jacob so much that He didn't want to disappoint or hurt him by defeating him." or as you said, "He wantef to give him a message."
- When we ask, "Do you agree that the Bible belittles God when it describes him as man, wandering on the land?"
"But that night the word of the Lord came to Nathan, saying," Go and tell my servant David, "This is what the Lord says: Are you the one to build me a house to dwell in? I have not dwelt in a house from the day I brought the Israelites up out of Egypt to this day. I have been moving from place to place with a tent as my dwelling."Wherever I have moved with all the Israelites, did I ever say to any of their rulers whom I commanded to shepherdmy people Israel, "Why have you not built me a house of cedar?" (2 Sanuel 7:4-8)
They answer, "God loved us so much that he preferred wandering on the land to sit on His Great Throne."
- When we say, "Is it not a blasphemy that the Bible says God got regretful?'
"The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. So the Lord said, 'I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created"and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground"for I regret that I have made them." (Genesis
Hmm, I don't know what their excuse is for above verse...
Once again, I tell you not to interpret the Bible as you like. The Bible clearly says that, "The Lord couldn't overpower him." It means he wasn't able to. If He wanted to give up purposely, the Bible would say, "He didn't want to overpower him."
Now, let's read a Quranic verse,
"And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, 'My Lord, show me Yourself that I may look at You.' Allah said, 'You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me.' But when his Lord appeared to the" mountain, He rendered it level," and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, 'Exalted"are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers." (the Quran 7:143)
Does this verse bring more glory to the Name of God? When He reflected His Glory on the mountain, he crashed it into pieces. But the Bible talks about people who saw God as if they were seeing an ordinary man.
About the verses which you claimed that they must be included in the Bible, as I said they were written and added to the Bible to support Trinity Doctrine.
Another example for such verses is, "So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." (Mark 16:19)
As we know, there are two versions of Mark's Gospel. One is called the shorter version and other, the longer version. The shorter version, which ends at verse 8, does not contain the above verse.
Peake's Commentary on the Bible records, "It is now generally agreed that 9-20 are not an original part of Mike. They are not found in the oldest MSS, and indeed were apparently not in the copies used by Matthew and Luke. A 10th century Armenian MS ascribes the passage to Aristion, the presbyter mentioned by Papias."
Besides, we read in Matthew 28:13 that Jesus tells them to baptize in the name of Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.
But Acts 2:38 says, "Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. "
It seems that Peter Simon had disobeyed the specific command of Jesus Christ for baptizing in the three names and baptized them in the name of Jesus alone.
It is one of the reasons we cannot trust the Bible. We don't know who wrote it, who complied it, who corrupted it, who were inspired by God. There are so many versions of the Bible which contradict one another and so on.
Brother, we are discussing on Christianity, not Islam! However, I appreciate your statements and explain briefly about them.
- "Hajar ul-Aswad" is a heavenly stone which Gabriel brought to Mecca from Paradise. Muslims respect and touch this stone, because it is blessed. Just like Prophet Jacob who wiped his eyes with the clothes of Joseph and he regained his sight.
- "And from wherever you go out [for prayer], turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] may be, turn your faces toward it in order that the people will not have any argument against you. (2:150)
The Qiblah of Muslims, the Sacred House of Ka'ba, is located in Mecca. All Muslims pray towards it. It is a way to unite the Muslim Ummah.
- Who told you about the tenth of Muharram?! It is forbidden to fast on this day. Because it is the day when Imam Hussain was killed and the sky shed blood for him and the milk and butter turned to blood in Britain in 685 A.D. If you want to know about this day, please read Leviticus 23:23-32. Prophet Moses will tell you.
- Islam is the religion of Prophet Abraham. He was the first one to perform Hajj after building Kaba. And it became a tredition for all Muslims to perform Hajj as well.
"Blessed are those who dwell in Your house; They will still be praising You. Selah Blessed is the man whose strength is in You, Whose heart is set on pilgrimage. As they pass through the Valley of Baca, They make it a spring; The rain also covers it with pools." (Psalm 84:4-6)
- The Crescent is the symbol of Islam (referring to Lunar calander) as the Cross is the symbol of Christianity.
Yes, the term "Tawheed" is not mentioned in the verses of the Quran. But "Tawheed" is the name of a Surah (chapter) in the Quran.
"Say, 'He is Allah, who is One, Allah , the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born, Nor is there to Him any equivalent." (112:1-4)
Tawheed means the Oneness of God. Hundreds of Quranic verses refers to this, such as,
" And your god is one God. There is no deity [worthy of worship] except Him, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful." (2:163)
"Allah witnesses that there is no deity except Him, and [so do] the angels and those of knowledge - that He is maintaining creation in justice. There is no deity except Him, the Exalted in Might, the Wise." (3:18)
"Follow, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you from your Lord - there is no deity except Him - and turn away from those who associate others with Allah ." (6:106)
But can you find any AUTHENTIC verse which refers to Trinity? For example, Jesus says, "I am your God, so worship Me."?
In this argument, I wanted to tell you how Trinity was invented and hammered out. But since you asked me to write a short argument, I didn't explain about it. I will wait for an appropiate opportunity to disprove it completely.
But please read my comment. I will tell you who God is.
Thank you brother.
I appreciate your remark about Christians using God's love to cover up our errors, but the simple truth that Muslims refuse to admit is that there are no errors.
For someone to be God, they have to have these 3 attributes.
- All Loving
- All Just
- All Forgiving
Is the Islamic god all loving?
No, the Quran is very clear that Allah does not love the unrighteous, therfore he is not all loving.
Is the Islamic God all Just?
No he is incredibly merciful, or so it would seem, but the fact that he doesn't punish sin means he is not all Just. If a criminal came before the judge and said they were sport for the murders they had commited and told the judge they would make it up with good works, would the judge let him go? Of course not! If he did then he would be kind and merciful, but he wouldn't be Jusy.
Is the Islamic god all forgiving?
Correct me if I'm wrong but Allah doesn't forgive the polytheists. I also believe he doesn't forgive those who claim Jesus is God and leave Islam. Is this not an immediate ticket to Hell?
With these facts it seems your first assertion is wrong based on.....
1. No evidence.
2. No understanding of love.
3. And hypocrisy under the testament of who God is.
You seem to forget that he did indeed want to give him a message, not to mention this was the pre- Incarnate Jesus Christ. When Jesus was on Earth he took on human aspects such as hunger, thirst, and pain. Why is it so hard to believe he had a wrestling match with Jacob. This story itself reminds me of when a Father wrestles with his Son. The wrestling shows a deep love and affection for each other.
Your next assertion starts out incorrect based on your belief that God was a man dwelling in the desert at the Tabernacle. This is false. God decided to dwell with his people for the sole purpose of being able to lead them from the front lines as he did with the pillar of fire and smoke. But overall it was for Israel's own benefit so that they could truly feel the presence of God among them and feel closer to him. While the Islamic god looks down and plays around with creation, the Christian God jumps down to pick his children back up and lead them as a loving Father. As a side note you also need to remember that God is omniscient and omnipresent which means he could be everywhere at once including the Tabernacle and his throne in Heaven.
Why would it be blasphemy to consider God to be regretful.
The definition of regret is to simply feel sorrow or remorse. How is it blasphemy to claim God felt sorrow or deep pity!
Is it not more blasphemous to take the Muslim approach of making fun of the trinity based on an assertion that it doesn't make sense to human minds therefore it's false. Judging God based on our knowledge, which Muslims do is the real blasphemy.
Once again I realize that you have thrown out all my quotes by the Church Fathers, early Christian writings, Didache, old Latin texts, and Textus Receptus.
The Alexandrain Codexes that had those verses missing strangely had open spaces where try were supposed to go. As scribes you NEVER did this which shows that they were intended to be placed there.
Do we have any archeological or historical proof that Abram was Muslim... Nope. Did he establish the black stone... Nope. What about the Hajj.... Nope
No proof no argument Julia.
As for the other explanations you showed why muslims do it, but you don't refute the historical facts that Islam was founded on Paganism.
You yourself admit that the WORD Tahwihd is not in the Quran. This is a double standard and a baseless assertion.
Thanks Julia and I WILL put Bible verses besides the ones you think are corrupt that testify of Jesus divinity in the comments.
Back to you
In fact, a Christian who believes in Trinity can't prove that he's monotheist. He just believes the Bible blindly and speaks untruth about God. And he still claims that his "blind faith" can save him! " No! They are going to know. Then, no! They are going to know." (the Quran 78:4-5)
Indeed, God cannot be described except in the way He has described Himself. See?! I didn't slander you! You really don't know who God is! Because you still don't know about His Attributes.
You needed evidence, right? Read again what you said;
- God is not Just because due to his mercy, he doesn't punish us for our sins.
- God is not all-Forgiving because he doesn't forgive polytheism.
Let's suppose you are questioned on the Day of Judgement. What would you call God if he forgives your sin (polytheism), All-Forgiving or Injust?
What would you call God if He punishes you for your sin, Just or Cruel?
In both situation you speak untruth about God!
- If what you say about justice is true, then you have admitted that Jesus is injust too! Because he didn't stone a woman who committed adultry to death and forgave him (John 8). He has also violated his words when he said that he came to fulfill Mosaic laws!
- If what you say about forgiveness is true, then you have admitted that your God is not all-Firgiving. Because as we read in Mark 3:28-29, "Truly I tell you, all sins and blasphemes will be forgiven for the sons of men. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
- Does God love wrong-doers?
No, he doesn't. The Quran says that God loves the righteous, the purified and those who repent. But He doesn't love wrong-doers and disbelievers for some reasons which I don't want to mention here. Because we're not discussing on this subject. The Bible also shows us this too. Why did God punish the nation of Noah with flood? Because they were corrupting the earth. They were wrong-doers. If God loved them, would he punish them? Or read the Mosaic laws. God ordered the Israelities to kill those who committed adultry. If God loved them, would He order such a thing?
- Is God Just?
Yes, he is. Because He doesn't wrong anyone. It means he doesn't punish a person on the behalf of others and for the sins of others.
"So today no soul will be wronged at all, and you will not be recompensed except for what you used to do." (36:54)
On the contrary, the Christians believe God in unjust! Because according to Original Sin, God punishes everyone for Adam's sin. (Romans 5:12)
- Is Polytheism an Unforgivable Sin in Islam?
No. The Quran says that God doesn't forgive polytheism. But this verse is about those who die as polytheists. And If a polytheist convert to Islam before his death, his conversion will remove all his sins. God is just looking for an excuse to forgive us.
I found it really funny that you claimed Muslim who criticize Trinity are committing blasphemy? What about you? You yourself have no knowledge about it too. You can't even prove that if Trinity makes sense! Don't you feel that when you say Jesus is the Son of God, you are committing blasphemy??
The Trinity designates God as being three separate entities " the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If God is the Father and also the Son, He would then be the Father of Himself because He is His own Son. This is not exactly logical.
Christianity claims to be a monotheistic religion. Monotheism, however, has as its fundamental belief that God is One; the Christian doctrine of the Trinity " God being Three-in-One " is seen by Islam as a form of polytheism. Christians don't revere just One God, they revere three.
Ok. I want to disprove the divinity of Jesus by quoting the Bible:
1. I start with John 20:28 which you wrote in your comment. When we say that the Bible is corrupted, Christians think that we believe the whole Bible has been changed and all its verses are false. But let's see how churches corrupted this verse simply by changing a exclamation mark!
I quote this verse from "NASB"
"Then He said to Thomas, 'Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.' Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!'" (John 20:27-28)
- Please look at the exclamation mark at the end of the verse. King James Version has removed this mark!
- As you see Jesus asked no question. Hence, the text "Thomas answered" is inaccurate. The last phrase "My Lord and my God!" was not an answer but an outburst of exclamation by Thomas, having seen something inexplicable and baffling.
We sometimes cry out, "Oh my God!" when we see something totally strange grotesque. To support my claim, I quote this verse from two other versions:
a. We read in "NET Bible", "Thomas replied to him, 'My Lord and my God!'
b. And in the NIV, " Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!"
Please don't quote the verses out of context! Let's read what is written after this narration
"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God..." (John 20:30-31)
If the answer of Thomas was a testimony for 'Deity of Jesus', and the observed silence by Jesus to be his acquiesce to such a testimony, then the author would ask us to believe "Jesus is the God", in the above verse.
2. You said that God sent his only begotten son.
Firstly: How do you know that Jesus is the only son of God?!!
"Beware of"practicing your righteousness before other people in order"to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 6:1)
"Blessed are the peacemakers, forthey shall be called sons of God." (Matthew 5:9)
"Go to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father..." (John 20:17)
Secondly; the Greek word for "begotton" is "gennao" as we can see in Matthew 1:2. But the word which we see in John 3:16 and John 1:18 is 'monogenes' which can be translated to "His unique son" or "His one of a kind son". If you check out those verses in other languages, you can see that they translated it as "His unique son". The usage of term 'Father' by Jesus was not in a physical sense but was purely metaphorical for the Creator. As for Jesus being a "unique son", he, unlike us, was created by the Creator without a physical Father."
I only quote other verses without explaining.
3. Jesus said that He always followed and obeyed God.
"Jesus gave them this answer, 'Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does." (John 5:19)
If Jesus is God, how do you interpret this verse?
4. "But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." (1 Corinthians 11:3)
5. "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matthew 234:36)
If Jesus was God, he himself would know when the Day of Judgement is.
6. "The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands." (John 3:35)
Jesus has nothing by himself. God has given him everything, even his existence.
7. "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (John 17:3)
Jesus was a prophet whom God had sent to guide the Israelities.
8. "Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master,"nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." (John 13:16)
During his ministry, Jesus repeatedly said he was sent by his Father.
9. "Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed." (Acts 4:27)
Jesus was the servant of God.
10. "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes HIM who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24)
Who is "Him" whom Jesus mentioned? Do you put your faith in "Him" or Jesus?
11. "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus." (Acts 3:13)
11. "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?" (Hebrew 1:5)
I can prove this verse is corrupted. But I don't, because it can still show you that Jesus is not God. Jesus was born that day. He didn't exist before. So only God is Eternal and Jesus isn't.
12. "And let all the angels of God worship him."
Jesus is the worthy of praise. Alngels praise him. But Jesus himself praises and worships God. (Matthew 26:39). So God is Worthy of Praise from Jesus, angels and everybody.
13. "Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?" (Hebrew 1:13)
This verse clearly says that God sits on the Supreme Throne and Jesus sits next to Him. So God is Greater than Jesus.
"But if they turn away - then We have not sent you over them as a guardian; upon you is only the duty of notification." (42:48)
"Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment." (2:6-7)
Anyway I'd like to quickly post my last argument as to why the Trinity does not defy Monotheism.
Let's start with a quick mathematical formula as to what the Trinity is and what it isn't. Most non Christians believe that the Trinity is 1+1+1=1. This is simply not the way we see it as. The Holy Trinity is much more like 1*1*1=1.
You and I both live within a 3 dimensional Universe in which I can talk, act, and feel like someone else, but I'm still a distinct and independent individual. God on the other hand lives outside of our time and space and is therefore open to different states. In this aspect Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit can each be God.
God is a Spirit and is therfore outside of our logic and reasoning. Can I show logically that the Blessed Trinity makes sense? No of course not!!! The Christians God is beyond our comprehension and logic.
What is the emptytology of Trinity. Well Tri=3 and Unity=1, therfore the Tri+Unity=Trinity. Many people have failed to explain the Trinity, but here is my explanation. The Trinity comprises of 3 distinct persons who are united in one essence of Deity with the same will, purpose, and Godship.
Some Human explanations to the Trinity are like H2o. Water, Gas, and Ice are all H2o, but there still the same thing(3 in one.)Another example could be an apple with the skin, fruit and core or the egg with the shell, yolk, and white.
I'm really sorry for not posting a large argument due to lack of time, but I'd love to debate with you on this again or have a discussion in the comments.
Thanks and always remember this...
"Regem et Dominum nostrum Iesum resucitatum omes speciosa."
Thanks Julia and sorry for keeping you waiting.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by HardRockHallelujah 1 year ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Why is it that Pro (who is a Muslim by the way) had the audacity to quote someone who believes that Jesus never even existed to prove her case? Does she not realize that he likewise believes that Islam is a fabricated religion? Extremely inconsistent if you ask me. But anyways, Con did a better job in this debate, he showed that the earliest followers of Jesus saw Jesus as God, and that the only explanation for why monotheistic Jews would worship Jesus is if he claimed to be God for himself. There is really no other explanation for this phenomenon. It logically follows that if people claim to be rigorous monotheists like Jews while still worshiping Jesus and rejecting all other false Gods, that Christians aren't polytheists, for if they were, they would be likewise easily be fooled into worshiping other false gods, which was not the case.
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