The Instigator
wheelhouse3
Pro (for)
Losing
79 Points
The Contender
SimonZ
Con (against)
Winning
92 Points

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the closest to the church Jesus instilled

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/15/2007 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,824 times Debate No: 471
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (54)
Votes (44)

 

wheelhouse3

Pro

I know that many people have prejudice taught by their ministers, pastors, etc. against the mormons. Please do not that prejudice sway your favor in this argument. In no way am I trying to prove this religion right; I am simply trying to say that it is the most parallel to the one set up by Jesus in Biblical times. The reasons I believe this include:
1. In Biblical times Jesus had his church set up with prophets and apostles and the only church with that same set up is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
2. Jesus went about preaching his gospel throughout the land just as today the LDS church sends out missionaries to spread this gospel.
3. The LDS church believes firmly in the importance of baptism by immersion just as Jesus demonstrated its importance through example.
4. The LDS Church believes that when you die you go to either a spirit heaven or spirit prison to await judgement day because in the three days before He was resurrected, Jesus preached to the spirits in that prison.
5. The LDS church is the only one practicing baptisms for the dead which Paul stressed was important still even after the death of Jesus.

I will leave this open to argument, but please take into consideration my first statements before you write your counter argument.
SimonZ

Con

The only thing I can argue currently is that, and this may seem offensive, Mormonism is the closes thing to the establishment of an Anti-Christ I have seen in the modern era.
First off, while Mormonism is very close in relation to Christianity it is still not the same. Jesus preached that there would be others after him who were close to Christianity and mirrored its intentions but that these would be false prophets. I cannot say for certain but that sounds an awful lot like Mormonism.
I will assess your 5 arguments individually.
1. Jesus did establish His church with his apostles but that church is still held today. Its called Christianity. While there may be many sects of the church it is still set solely in the believe that Jesus is Christ and that having a relationship with him is the only driving force in life. The church was established officially when Jesus gave the first communion, that all shall take his the bread, his body and take the wine, his blood, in communion with him. I am not certain whether or not Mormons do this but this is the true spirit of the church. Mormon churches may have the exterior characteristics of the church but if they do not have a communion with Jesus then it is fake.
2. Just because Mormons preach there gospel does not even make them anything like Christ. Mormons preach their gospel in order to spread it around. A stagnant religion is a dead religion and Mormons know this. Salesman can go door to door selling their product as well.
3. Again, while the LDS may believe in baptism, its the purpose for baptism that truly matters. LDS is the merely mimicking the Christian church, it does not make it anything like the church.
4. Christ went to Hell, not spirit prison. That is the essence of the Resurrection is that Christ rose from death thus defeating it. He did not go to a spirit prison and he did not ascend to spirit heaven. He went to rest on the right hand of God, in Heaven. This concept of spirit prison and spirit hell is more similar to Muslim ideology than Christian believes.
5. The dead have already gone to either hell or heaven and baptism does not help them either way. Baptism is purely to decision of a single living person to be immersed in the spirit of Jesus and if they are dead they cannot do so. Thus, baptism of the dead is pointless and very similar to paganism or Medieval Christianity, which was coincidentally very similar to true Christianity but was muddled by corrupt leaders who taught falsehoods.
The basis of this argument is that while the LDS church may be similar to Christianity, it is fake and was established by Joseph Smith not Jesus Christ.
Debate Round No. 1
wheelhouse3

Pro

1. In what Christian church do they have prophets and apostles? I have heard of not one. Jesus and God set up prophets and apostles before and (for awhile) after Christ's coming. The LDS church worships Christ and still sees him as the head of the church. Yes, the LDS does practice communion but in the LDS church it is known as sacrament.
2. Preaching His gospel is what Jesus commanded all his disciples to do until his second coming and as far as I know the LDS church and the Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones obeying that commandment of Christ. That is what I was originally trying to say with the previous statement of mine. Mark 16:15(KJV)
3. Christ DID NOT say that it was the meaning of baptism that mattered. He said that we MUST be born of the water to enter the kingdom of heaven not just understand the meaning of it. The meaning of baptism is to cleanse the body of sin and truly enter into the kingdom of God. If it was just the meaning that was important then why would Jesus, sinless and pure of heart, do it? It was to be taken as an example of what we must do to live with God someday. John 3:3-5(KJV)
4. He did go to a prison of spirits. It says so in the Bible. If He had gone to Hell it would have said Hell not prison. He did not go to the right hand of God until after His resurrection because He told Mary, "Touch me not for I have not yet ascended to my Father in Heaven". 1 Peter 3:19 & 4:6 (KJV)
5. A person is not supposed to go to Heaven or Hell until their hearts are judged on judgement day. Until that day they wait in either spirit prison or heaven to await their judgement. The spirits in prison are preached to just as they would have been if they had had that opportunity here in their earthly life. Baptisms for the dead ARE important just as Paul taught that they were and those people being preached to in spirit prison have the opportunity to accept or reject that baptism just as they would have had that opportunity here on earth. 1 Corinthians 15:29
If the Mormon church was established by a corrupt and blind leader(Joseph Smith as you say) and not Jesus Christ. Would you say then that God would encourage half the country at that time to rape, kill, plunder, and drive every Mormon from state to state until there were trails of blood across the frozen prairies which they walked? Or would you say that those were things that the Devil would encourage? To me, a God that would condone that kind of behavior in his children is not a just and merciful one. Therefore, unless you are in the belief that God had encouraged that then it was the Devil. Why would the Devil encourage the destruction of something that was leading people into a falsehood about God?
SimonZ

Con

Just as you do no want to be singled out because of people with poor character in your religion, I am just the same. Joseph Smith did establish the Mormon Church and Jesus himself said he was the last. Why would God send someone after Jesus? If he is all powerful and finally came to take upon himself all sin and release people from their sin debt, why send another supposed messenger of God? I cannot for the life of me understand how people can blindly follow a person like Joseph Smith.
I do not think that God encouraged anyone to rape, kill or plunder any Mormons. Every man will succumb to sin and obviously those ruthless people were no different. God does not encourage violence towards other men. Jesus preached a gospel of peace and understanding. The people that ruthlessly attacked the Mormons may have done so in the name of God but it was for their own profit and appease. History is chalk-full of violence at the hands of "Christians" but do not under any circumstance attribute that to the true message of Jesus. The Devil promotes violence and disorder amongst everyone and I believe that he is happy when any man sins, no matter the circumstance. When "Christians" kill and mistreat anyone, even fellow Christians, it promotes violence and hate. By killing mistreating Mormons, these so-called Christians promoted hate against them and also created chaos. These are things that the Devil likes and I would say that is the work of the devil.
As for baptism. Baptism must be willfully done, I think we both agree on that. What we disagree on, I think, is why it must be done? It is true that Jesus was baptized while on Earth but this was because he was still part man and as a man he had to be born again. Baptism is symbolic. When you emerge from the water, that is your second birth and you are no born again with Christ in your heart. Thus, after baptism, your sole purpose in life is to do as Christ commands. So yes, it is symbolic. It is the willful act of commencing your life with Christ.
The sole point of Christianity, in its truest sense, is that we are saved through Christ word alone. If he is the one and only and only his word matters, then why even consider anyone else's "truth". The way I see it, the Mormon Church is a deceitful man's take on Christianity. By creating such a religion, he did two things. One, he has led many people who believe in Christ down a wrong path but more importantly he has created another rift between followers of Christ. If you are a true follower of Christ, then you should not consider yourself Mormon, you should shed that ideology. Your sole purpose in life should be following the word of Christ alone. Thus, you are a Christian. Do not separate yourself because of a few rituals that you believe make you more right. That has been done before and it only creates more strife for all. I do not consider myself anything but a Christian. I am not a Protestant, a Catholic, a Baptist, or any other "religion". I am a Christian. And I make mistakes and I am bound for Hell. But the only reason I have a chance at eternal life in Heaven is because I accepted Christ as the sole purpose in my life and I was reborn through him, and him alone. Not Joseph Smith, not Muhammad; Jesus. Think about that the next time you go to Church. Why do what you do? Is it to glorify Jesus, or to show how good of a Mormon or a Catholic, or a Baptist you are? That is why I cannot accept anything but the word of Jesus. And that is why I am a Christian. Maybe this debate will help you understand what that means, and possibly make things clear.
Debate Round No. 2
wheelhouse3

Pro

Joseph Smith did not found my religion, he restored it to the earth. I am NOT a follower of him. I AM a follower of God and his son, Jesus Christ. I don't worship Joseph Smith; I worship Them. Please do not tell me what I do or don't believe or what I practice. You have no right to do that. This argument was NOT about the integrity of Joseph Smith, it was about the fact that the LDS church is the closest to what Jesus established while he was here. The fact that you do not believe that God would encourage that violence within people only deepens my point that it was the Devil. Granted, the Devil takes joy in and fuels any sin, but why would he fuel sin and hatred toward a religion that encourages people to , as you say, "blindly follow a person like Joseph Smith"? Would the Devil not encourage that; seeing as it draws people away from God? My response to your question "Why would God send someone after Jesus?" is EXACTLY. God didn't send those evils after Jesus; the Devil did in order to destroy what was good and pure and drawing men closer to God and truth.
As for baptism... The LDS church also believes that before you get baptized you must accept the meaning of it. You're not supposed to be baptized unless you understand the symbolic meaning of it.
The LDS church *again* DOES worship Christ, our Savior, and God the Father; NONE ELSE! His word IS all that matters and the LDS church and I believe that. What does it say on the front of every Book of Mormon? Or have you not had the integrity to look? If not let me enlighten you. It states: The Book of Mormon- Another Testament of Christ. "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." You have no right to condemn this book if you have never read it. That book, in no possible way could have been entirely made up and written by a 14 year old boy with a third grade education. I have read it many times and in no possible way is that book evil. The Bible states that "by their fruits ye shall know them"...and..."an evil tree can not bring forth good fruit , neither can a good tree bring forth evil fruit" just as mikelwallace stated below. I KNOW beyond any shadow of doubt that that book and Joseph Smith are not evil. God told us that he WOULD send another messenger to prepare the way for the Second Coming; look up Malachi 3:1 (KJV) and if that isn't enough I can always give more. Every prophet we have is a messenger of God, not just Joseph Smith, but every single one after up until the current prophet Gordon B. Hinkley. "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." (Amos 3:7 [KJV]). "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God." I suggest that until you actually know and understand what you are talking about, you don't try to tell someone what they do or don't believe. To answer your question about why I go to church… I go because my Lord God and my Savior Jesus Christ commanded me to keep the Sabbath day holy by worshipping them. I go not to glorify myself, for my life is not really mine; it belongs and is devoted to God in every way. It is not for you to judge. You know me not, so don't pretend that you do. You know nothing about the LDS religion and yet you try to tell me what I believe. Your prejudice and lies cannot sway my beliefs, for I am in no way that simple minded.
SimonZ

Con

Having read over the comments, I think I have a better understanding of where your argument comes from and amazingly enough, where my own argument comes from. Neither one of us will budge in our stance on our faiths. While our religions are similar, they are not the same. In both of our arguments we both argue for what seems to be similar but is slightly different. We will never be able to fully understand one another because we will never be in the same position as the other person. This is the on-going story of humanity. I think we can both agree that the only person (or creature) responsible for spurring on this debate between you and I, and other people from both our faiths, is the devil. He promotes this ignorance so that it distracts us from what our focus should be on.
I will not know whether or not my faith is placed in the correct hands, not in this lifetime. The same can be said about you. But I suppose that is why it is called faith.
As for your beginning statement. It is true that the LDS practice the same rituals as the beginning church and in a sense are therefore most similar in practice. Perhaps, you are the Christians of the modern era and we are the Jews, still unaware of the new faith.
I cannot question your faith and I have no right to. I can only question your practice when it is juxtaposed against mine. As a Christian, i.e. follower of Christ, which is not a denomination, I believe that the only way is his and therefore I can only follow him. There can be no others. I do not say this to degrade your faith but to establish mine. There is only one book, the Bible and any other is false. If the Bible explicitly reads that it is The Word of God, then why take another. That is the basis of Christianity and the fundamental difference between Mormons and Christians. We are not the same and to say so is ignorant.
In following, the "Topic of Debate", I am not the winner. There is proof that the LDS is closer to the beginning Church. But I would like to point out that Christianity has evolved. Christ did not die recently. He died nearly 2000 years ago and since then Christianity has grown and aged a little. It has had some pretty horrific and deceitful leaders and will continue to have them as the devil attempts to corrupt the faith. To come full circle with my point, Mormonism is relatively new and that is why it still resembles the early Church. Do not think that its resemblance has anything to do with how right or wrong it may be. Consider what you believe. Consider the facts; that it uses a book written by a man considered the "prophet" from God, or a latter-day saint if you will. I will not sit here and attempt to batter Mormonism, as I feel that is another form of persecution, I can only raise questions I have about it. That what you will from this debate, as I am sure it was between two people who care very deeply for what they believe in.
Debate Round No. 3
54 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by the-good-teacher 7 years ago
the-good-teacher
This denial of polygamy was in every edition of the Doctrine and Covenants until 1876, when it was replaced with section 132 commanding polygamy. Even though Smith was already practicing plural marriage in the 1830's he did not give his polygamy revelation (Sec. 132) until 1843

The first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants, printed in 1835, denounced the practice: "Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife, and one woman, but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again." (Doctrine and Covenants, section 101, verse 4) This denial of polygamy, was printed in every edition of the Doctrine and Covenants until the year 1876. At that time the Mormon leaders inserted section 132, which permits a plurality of wives. Obviously, it would have been too contradictory to have one section condemning polygamy and another approving of it in the same book! Therefore, the section condemning polygamy was completely removed from the Doctrine and Covenants.

The first seven presidents of the Mormon Church, proclaimed to be prophets of God, were involved in breaking the law, polygamy, polyandry, adultery, deception and perjury. All 15 presidents of the LDS Church have been involved in a massive cover-up regarding these issues. Although Joseph Smith died on June 27, 1844, his teaching on plural marriage continues to affect thousands of people today. As long as the LDS Church continues to print Sec. 132 in their Doctrine and Covenants and does not renounce the doctrine of polygamy, the sad practice will continue to spread.

Jesus Himself warned us to beware of "false prophets," and instructed us that we will "know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:15-16). Mormons need to face the fact that one of the "fruits" of Mormonism is the wide spread practice of polygamy today. Joseph Smith's secret, illegal doctrine is direct

LDS
Posted by Kahvan 7 years ago
Kahvan
This was in my opinion, one of the best debates on the sight. I am also LDS (or more commonly known as Mormon). s for the debate I would like to say that con did hand it over to pro.
Posted by wheelhouse3 7 years ago
wheelhouse3
Excuse me? Are you joking? You obviously don't know anything about the LDS church and I highly doubt you even read this debate. You obviously have no idea who Joseph Smith even was. You are ignorant, religiously unintelligent, and closed-minded. You're presuming that a 14-year-old boy prayed for a religion that could allow him to sleep with "20 teenage wives"? Rediculous. Polygamy wasn't even practiced until 1841 (11 years AFTER the church was organized). The only reason it was practiced was because hundreds of LDS women were left widows after people like you slaughtered their husbands, tortured their children, and raped them. The only proper way for these women to be taken care of properly was for them to become a part of another household. Most of the women who were wives of polygamist saw nothing of their husbands-- just bread on the table. I mentioned they were all WIDOWS right-- not teenagers? Once there was no longer a need for it, the practice was eliminated. Any one found practicing polygamy within the LDS church is excommunicated. End of story. Next time, I suggest you be a little more informed before you make an idiotic accusation.
Posted by Awed 7 years ago
Awed
The only reason the LDS religion exists is because a dude named Joseph Smith wanted 20 teenage wives to sleep with all at once, and need an explanation for it.
Posted by wheelhouse3 7 years ago
wheelhouse3
Hey Kierkegaard. Sorry that this is so late haha. I haven't come on here in a year! Been a bit busy going out on my own and stuff=) Well, I'd just like to "answer" some of your problems with the church.
To address your "biggest problem" with the church:
You stated that Mormons are "blind to the world." I'd just like to ask how so?
Your biggest problem with the church actually has nothing to do with the church. It is a problem with its people. All I can say is that just because its people are not perfect, does not mean that the church isn't. No person will ever be perfect in this lifetime no matter what religion they belong to. This also addresses you "bad music" issue too. I'm sorry that that is the only experience you had with Mormons and music. It makes me really quite sad. I assure you that we are not all like that=) For example, my favorite artist is Bob Dylan. I've gotten into quite a few raging arguements with this lady in my ward (who think she's so high mighty-- one of *those* Mormons you know) about how, according to her, he's a drugged up lunatic who preaches his lifestyle. She'd never actually listened to a Bob Dylan song in her life! I was so angry! Just to spite her ignorance I preformed "Blowing in the Wind" at the ward talent show. She thought it was a church song! Stupid git. =) See what I mean? I think I'm really just rambling here. =)
As to you claim that there is no evidence of the wars:
I'd like to know where you heard North America and northern South America. Because all my life (I was raised in the church), I've been told that those wars took place in ccentral South America near the ancient civilization of the Aztecs and Maya. There is countless evidence supporting the battles and wars that took place in the Book of Mormon in these places. The only time North America is ever mentioned is in association with the travelings of Moroni. When he was the only surviving Nephite, he made a journey that took him most of his life.
Posted by thisoneguy 7 years ago
thisoneguy
@cooljpk, What other church has a Prophet,, blah, blah,,,,, the only true church!!!, Jesus demonstrated physically what we can do spiritually, He was resurrected physically, we should be born again spiritually,,,baptism,same,,, three kingdoms??,,, WRONG!!! three heavens, one for the fowl, one for the planets, and the other goes without saying,," Priesthood" ?,,,reliable? lol,,, priesthood is given directly to man from Jesus,(the last and only high Priest) so no middle men with corporate business suits, buying shopping malls, with other peoples money, required!!,, any other points you need educated on ?.. try this one,, Sunday, the sabbath, day of rest?,, lol, Jesus is the Sabbath, "I will give you rest", again spiritual,, every day of the week, you're being lead down the garden path(by wolves in sheep's clothing) away from the house of the Lord my friend..No need to wonder why the early Utah settlers were hit by a plaque, as promised in the Bible that you are taught not to trust. ("as far as it's translated correctly") maybe one day you'll get the rubbish out your head and have room for the true Gospel of Jesus. God bless.
Posted by cooljpk 7 years ago
cooljpk
Oh and the BIG one ... THE PRIESTHOOD!!!! One That has a reliable root to Jesus Christ Himself.
Posted by cooljpk 7 years ago
cooljpk
Are you kidding me. What other church has a Prophet and Apostles and Baptism by immersion and A 3 Kingdom heaven. all that are in the bible.
Posted by thisoneguy 7 years ago
thisoneguy
The LDS church is nothing like the church Jesus gave to the World, nothing, and if anyone wants to debate this issue with me then you know where to find me.
Posted by Labrat228 8 years ago
Labrat228
Wheelhouse got my vote. (Great Work)
44 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Swordmaster 6 years ago
Swordmaster
wheelhouse3SimonZTied
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wheelhouse3SimonZTied
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wheelhouse3SimonZTied
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wheelhouse3SimonZTied
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wheelhouse3SimonZTied
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