The Instigator
mmadderom
Pro (for)
Winning
31 Points
The Contender
dudclub
Con (against)
Losing
3 Points

The Church of Scientology is a cult that should NOT have protection from the IRS.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/20/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,802 times Debate No: 2790
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (18)
Votes (10)

 

mmadderom

Pro

The Tom Cruise couch jumping religion isn't a religion at all but a cult, and a dangerous cult at that. I would LOVE for a Scientologist to take this, but I doubt if any are in here they'd have the guts to do so. It would just cost too much in auditing sessions afterward.

Any OTIII's out there want to take me on?
dudclub

Con

Whatever scientology is a religion that incorporates very interesting elements of science fiction and alienology. Can you evne name one thing that scientologists believe in? Oh and also scientology is the victim of bigotry in this country.
Debate Round No. 1
mmadderom

Pro

Nothing about Scientology can be called religious.

This is a dangerous cult that draws in people with promises of being able to help with all that ails them, be it mental or physical illness or success in your career. If you don't have any real problems, they'll simply make something up and convince you that you do and that it's imperative for you to take some of their classes to help. They also insist on frequent "auditing" which is basically akin to Catholic confession except the auditor asks the questions while the member holds the terminals of an E-Meter (rudimentary lie detector). Meticulous notes are kept during these sessions and anything of an embarassing nature revealed is recorded for future reference. It has been widely speculated that these records are the reason such stars as Tom Cruise and John Travolta have become trapped in the cult as the info Scientology has on them would ruin their careers.

Dianetics, the book the cult is based on, is little more than self-help mumbo jumbo that was popular at the time. Written by L. Ron Hubbard, a failed science fiction writer, the book even has a volcano on the cover...eluding to the cause of all bad things in life, something you don't find out until spending years and a tremendous amount of money to find out. This is why I asked if there were any OTIII's out there willing to take on this debate. That the "level" where you learn about Xenu, the evil overlord who controlled population in this sector of the universe by using phsycologists to lure folks to a trap where they were rounded up and placed at the base of volcanos on the planet Geegeak (currently referred to as Earth). After such time Xenu dropped atomic bombs into the volcano's to destroy billions of people. The souls, or body thetans of these people attach themselves to humans and are the cause of all illness and hold us back from reaching our full potential. Ridding ourselves of these thetans is the only way to be healthy, happy, and successful.

The story is much longer but this brief synopsis should be enough for most sane people to dismiss this "religion" as a farce. Unfortunately, by the time people reach the level that teaches this garbage they have been so thoroughly brain washed and have invested so much time/money in the cult they usually continue on.

Scientology is dangerous because, like most cults, it requires it's members to disassociate with anyone who doesn't support it. Anyone who says anything negative about Scientology or tries to get a member to leave is deemed a "suppressive person" and the cult member is ordered to "disconnect" from that person, no matter if it's parents, siblings, spouses, or children all contact is to be cut off. Anyone who dares speak ill of the church publicly is subjected to Scientology's "fair game" policy, which basically says that person may be attacked physically, emotionally, or otherwise. That lies may be told and lawsuits should be filed to harass and, if necessary, destroy that person.

Does this sound like a religion to you? Most of Europe doesn't think so, having de-certified Scientology. Russia, like many other countries have made the practice of Scientology a crime.

Finally, L. Ron Hubbards wife was among several Scientologists who were tried and convicted of federal crimes for breaking into Government offices to obtain information beneficial to the cult.

Scientology is a dangerous cult and the U.S. should follow the lead of other countries and remove it's tax exemption as well as monitor the happenings of this organization.
dudclub

Con

I learned about Xenu and I'm not even OTIII. So you are wrong about that.

Also, jsut becuase Russia does something doesn't make it a good idea. Otherwise we'd all be listening to techno right now.
Debate Round No. 2
mmadderom

Pro

Well, it appears you have no retort for my assertions nor any defense of Scientology so I'll make this short and sweet. Scientology is a dangerous cult and I'd strongly urge anyone involved or considering becoming involved to thoroughly investigate organization outside of the "Church's" propaganda literature.

That you "know" about Xenu without being an OTIII has nothing to do with doctrine. If you learned of Xenu before that level you did so outside of Scientology as the cult demands members who reach that level not to discuss it with anyone as knowing about Xenu before you are ready will cause serious injury or even death.

And it's not just Russia. The U.S. is the only true safe haven for Scientology now. Most of Europe has shut down or greatly curtailed the activities of this cult. These countries didn't run Ron L. and company out of town because they disliked him or out of religious persecution, they did it for the welfare of their citizens and out of recognition for what this organization actually is.
dudclub

Con

I don't have a retort to your assertions because there weren't any just a history lesson about scientologists which I must say was a lttle bit of a snoozer. Blah blah blah scientology so it's a cult.
Debate Round No. 3
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mikelwallace 9 years ago
mikelwallace
You clearly do not have any idea of the concept of free will. If you truly believe that your free will can be taken away by another without your choosing, you are a very weak minded person. And I still am not afraid of scientology, they don't scare me, they will never affect me. I do not need to attack, belittle, or tear them down. I just need to stand up for what I believe in, and allow all other men the same right. The truth is, every religeon out there has people like you who genuinely hate them and desire to destroy and get rid of them. You are called anti's. All you want to do is erase a religeon that you don't like. If you hate scientology so much, move to Europe.
Posted by mmadderom 9 years ago
mmadderom
Do you know of any legitimate religion that requires you to PAY to attend service? Sure, donations are accepted, but do you know of one where you pay an up front fee to attend?

This would be Scientology classes

How about a confessional where you pay the priest to confess?

This would be an auditing session in Scientology. Absolutely required throughout your "training". And if you slip up, you get to start over...and pay again...of course.

Do you know of a legitimate religion that demands you "disconnect" from everyone in your life who doesn't agree with said religion?

Do you know of a legitimate religion that will attack you in every way possible if you leave and speak out against it?

Do you know of a legitimate religion that isn't a belief system so much as a series of self help classes that you have to PAY to take?

That holds no religious ceremonies, has no actual services, shares nothing without a fee?

Do you know of a legitimate religion that originated as a for profit business venture then claimed religious affiliation years later only to avoid Government and IRS scrutiny?

What EXACTLY qualifies the Church of Scientology as a religion?
Posted by mmadderom 9 years ago
mmadderom
Every heard of Narconon? Narcotics anonymous. The AA for hard drug users. Yep. Scientology front group. They do some good, don't get me wrong, but all the while they are indoctrinating people into Scientology. Just another recruitment technique. People in that fragile state, recovering addicts, make for very pliable clay.

Advanced Dental care is one of their most successful front organizations. They do seminars for private practice dentists, then hard sell them into "courses" that will improve their business. That of course leads straight into Scientology. Because these Dentists usually DO see an increase in productivity and profit in their practice, they are easily led by the nose. The number of Dentists who have been utterly financially ruined by this scam is disgusting.

There is an office in Scientology dedicated solely to helping elderly members obtain mortgages on their paid for homes. Guess why? To pay for Scientology courses and auditing, of course.

See, Scientology isn't just a Church practicing a religion. It's a multi-faceted organization designed to take as much money as possible from people.

Hail Xenu.
Posted by mmadderom 9 years ago
mmadderom
Another example for you.

You may have heard of an organization called "the cult awareness network". It was a non-profit set up to track the activities of various cults around the world and provide information on organizations to anyone who called to find out if an organization they were involved with was accused of participating in cult activities. They also worked to help those who wanted out of cults to get out, and to help family members of people stuck in cults to gain communication. Very noble group.

Of course, once they started helping members leave Scientology and helping family members of Scientologists the lawsuits started flying. No merit to them, but the non-profit still had to defend themselves. This went on until the Cult Awareness Network simply didn't have the resources to defend against frivolous lawsuits any longer and was forced into bankruptcy.

Guess who bought the name "Cult Awareness Network" in bankruptcy court?

Yep. If you call the CAN network now, you will be talking to a Scientologist. Of course they won't identify themselves as such, but if you bring up Scientology and ask for help you will be told it's a legitimate religion and there is no need to worry.

They can't destroy you? Think again.
Posted by bobsatthepub 9 years ago
bobsatthepub
People should believe in real religions, not ones just made up by somebody.
Posted by mmadderom 9 years ago
mmadderom
L. Ron Hubbards policy per fair game on proper use of a lawsuit:

"The purpose of a lawsuit is to harass and discourage rather than
to win.... Don't ever defend. Always attack. Find or manufacture
enough threat against them to cause them to sue for peace. Originate
a black PR campaign to destroy the person's repute and to discredit
them so thoroughly they will be ostracized..."

"The law can be used very easily to harass, and enough harassment on somebody who is simply on the thin edge anyway, will knowing that he is not authorized, will generally be sufficient to cause his professional decease. If possible, of course, ruin him utterly." -- A Manual on the Dissemination of Material (1955) by L. Ron Hubbard.

Quite a "scripture" from a "church", eh? You can imagine what their wednesday night services must be like.
Posted by mmadderom 9 years ago
mmadderom
"Scientology does not take away a person's free will"

Absolutely it does exactly that. Brainwashing is the definition of removing ones free will.

"they can not "destroy" me for thinking they are a false religeon."

They most certainly can, and will attempt at all costs to do so if you speak out publicly against them. You obviously are not aware of the number of people/organizations who have gone bankrupt, been publicly smeared, and faced false criminal charges for doing exactly that. Google "fair game". The THIRD item that comes up with that innocuous term describes a scientology policy in this regard. I'd suggest you read it before assuming this cult could not and would not harm you for expressing YOUR OWN right to free speech in order to speak out against them.

"I do fear the constitution being shredded and undermined, however. That is precisely what would happen if the government were to tell ANY Church that they were being stripped of their rights because by the government's definition, they are not a religeon anymore."

So as soon as an organization acquires religious tax status, even if it does so under false pretenses, it must remain that way forever?

Now, see, THAT is unconstitutional.

Just claiming to be a religion doesn't make it such.
Posted by mikelwallace 9 years ago
mikelwallace
They believe in and have faith in the things they are taught, they are a religeon. You do not have the authority to say who is and is not a religeon. You can try to create some narrow definition if you want, but it really just sounds like you have personal animosity against scientology. I have a problem with people like you telling others what they can and cant do. Scientology does not take away a person's free will, Cruise and others involved choose to be, just like those who leave have chosen to leave. No matter how false it may be or even damaging to their family relationships, they still have the right to choose that way of life if they please. I do not fear scientology, they can not "destroy" me for thinking they are a false religeon. I do fear the constitution being shredded and undermined, however. That is precisely what would happen if the government were to tell ANY Church that they were being stripped of their rights because by the government's definition, they are not a religeon anymore.
Posted by claypigeon 9 years ago
claypigeon
If you want to put this debate up again I'll take it. I'm not a scientologist but I've read a few books and do like most of what I've read.
Posted by mmadderom 9 years ago
mmadderom
"No doubt scientology is a false religeon"

It isn't a religion at all. That's the problem. It's a series of self help classes that Hubbard decided to rename as a religion to gain protection from the IRS and Federal Government oversight.

"I know that scientology is not true, but their existence does not offend me or threaten me."

Their existence may not offend or threaten you personally, but it does threaten those who get caught up in it. When an organization takes your money, requires you do have no contact with anyone that disagrees with them (including your own family), aggressively attacks and attempts to destroy anyone who speaks out against them that is offensive....and dangerous.
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