The Instigator
imabench
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Strategery
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

The Cleveland Browns are the unluckiest team in the NFL

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/12/2015 Category: Sports
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 722 times Debate No: 83841
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (0)

 

imabench

Pro

I will argue that over the past decade, the Cleveland Browns have been the UNLUCKIEST team in the NFL.... Not the worst, just the unluckiest.

Con will argue that a different team has been even unluckier over the past 10 years.

This isnt a debate about which NFL team is WORSE, only about which team has had the worst LUCK. Whats the difference? The 2014 Seattle Seahawks were a phenomenally talented team, but what happened to them in the Superbowl was extremely unlucky.

Both sides will evaluate the unluckiness of teams over the past 10 years, not just this season or last season. Remember we are arguing about how UNLUCKY the teams are, not how BAD they are.

3 rounds, 5000 characters, 24 hours between rounds

My arguments:



1) Unlucky Drafting Choices

The Cleveland Browns have had many high ranking draft picks in the 1st round of the NFL drafts that they ended up using on bad players. Here are some examples

2005 - Drafted Braylon Edwards, could have drafted Aaron Rodgers
2006 - Drafted Kamerion Wimbley, could have drafted Antonio Cromartie
2007 - Drafted Joe Thomas, could have drafted Adrian Peterson
2009 - Drafted Alex Mack, could have drafted Clay Matthews
2010 - Drafted Joe Haden, could have drafted Dez Bryant
2011 - Drafted Phil Taylor, could have drafted Demarco Murray or Mark Ingram
2012 - Drafted Trent Richardson, could have drafted TY Hilton or Russell Wilson
2013 - Drafted Barkevious Mingo, could have drafted Le'Veon Bell or Eddy Lacy
2014 - Drafted Justin Gilbert, could have drafted Odell Beckham Jr.

(See wikipedia for all NFL Drafts from 2005 to 2014 for sources, I cant post them here due to character limits but can post them in the comments section if requested)

The Browns have had some of the best opportunities to build a team over the past ten years and literally each year they have blown it by drafting someone bad when someone much better was drafted afterwards.

On top of that, the Browns have had 7 1st round picks in the past 4 years, and only 2 of them are starters now, 1 of which is Johnny Manziel
http://espn.go.com...

When it comes to drafting players, the Browns have been very unlucky in not only failing to draft great players, but even the players they do draft turn out to be massive busts. This in turn has made them the unluckiest team in the NFL



2) Unlucky QB Trouble

The most famous position the Browns have been lacking at is the QB position, where since 2005 the Browns have had 15 different people start at QB, about 1 and a half per year.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

No other team has gone through as many QB's in that time without findign someone reliable as the Cleveland Browns, testifying to how unlucky they are at the QB position, and unlucky they are in general



3) Unlucky Division Difficulty

The Browns are in the same division as the Bengals, the Steelers, and the Ravens, and they have sucked in their division tremendously

The Browns have finished 4th (out of 4) in their division for the past 4 years in a row, and in 8 of the past 10 years (the only exceptions being they finished 3rd in their division in 2010, 2nd in 2007). They are also expected to finish last in their division for the 5th year in a row on account of they are 2-10

(I again cant post a link to every season due to character limits, but can post them in the comments section if requested)

The Browns are not only unlucky in getting good draft picks or a reliable QB, they are incapable of not finishing dead last in their division in any given year. No other team in the entire NFL has finished last in their division as frequently as the Browns have, due to how good the other teams in their division are, which truly shows how unlucky the Browns are.



4) Players Getting Arrested

http://nfl-arrests.pointafter.com...
http://nfl-arrests.pointafter.com...

The Cleveland Browns not only finish in their division dead last and cant draft or keep a decent QB, they also frequently have players arrested for off-the-field incidents... Since 2005, the Browns have had 20 players arrested for off the field incidents, tying them for 13th in the entire league for having the most players get arrested. (Vikings + Broncos tied for most with 35)



5) Unlucky Coaching Issues

The Browns, like draft picks, also cant get good coaches. They are in a 3 way tie for 2nd place (With the Chiefs and Dolphins) for most head coaching changes over the past 10 years with 5. Only Oakland has more with 6

http://footballscoop.com...

The Browns are just as unlucky in landing acceptable coaches just as they are unlucky in drafting decent players who dont end up getting arrested. For these reasons, the Browns are simply the unluckiest team in the entire NFL
Strategery

Con

Before I begin, I'd like just like to point out to Ima that he has asked us to name "the unluckiest NFL team from the past 10 years." Notice he has said "teams" and not "franchises."

Therefore, the unluckiest NFL team from the past decade is undoubtedly the AFC Pro Bowl Team.

1) No Longer in Existence & Inexcusable Fan Coverage.

Despite being loaded with some of the best and most popular players in the NFL, the AFC Team was one of only two all-star teams in the history of all modern professional sports that drew in less fan coverage and lower TV ratings than what a regular-season team would (the other team being the NFC)(1).

Since 2012, after having endured severe criticism from fans and sportswriters for over two decades of unexciting play, the NFL finally eliminated the NFC & AFC teams in favor of non-conference bowl games and a fantasy draft done by alumni captains.

As such, despite being loaded with NFL stars year after year, the AFC Pro Bowl team joins the ranks as one of only two unlucky teams to be eliminated from the NFL Player's Association in the past decade.

2) Unluckiest Schedule in the NFL

From 2005-2012, the AFC team was always scheduled to face the most challenging opponent in the NFL - the NFC All-Star Team; which is the terrible equivalent of having to debate against Bluesteel every single time on DDO. To make matters worse, those players who were selected to join the AFC team but are slated to also play in the Superbowl that year, will ultimately miss the Pro Bowl. The end result, is that year after year, AFC teams who went to play in the Pro Bowl were often without some of their best players. What can be more unluckier and dissatisfying for thousands of AFC voters & fans than to not have some of their best players show up in the Pro Bowl?

3) No Desire to Play & Chicken NFL Players

From 2005 to 2012 the AFC-NFC Pro Bowl could often be described as a game to where nobody has any desire to play and everyone is afraid of getting hurt, the only NFL game in the world where professional NFL players play like soccer players. The Associated Press famously observed in 2012 that the game appeared to be like two-sides "having a pillow fight"(1) (which is sort of like that action scenes we saw in DDO The Movie). And that the incentive to win was noticeably absent from coaches and staff, who were picked to lead their conference all star teams not because they were headed to the superbowl, but because they were that year's runner up.

4) Forced to wear NFL's Worse Uniforms

The AFC uniforms from 2005-2012 consisted of a plain fat red colored shirt. No other real logo, or pattern, just a plain red shirt that matched badly with the variety of different helmets the players sported. The uniforms were so terrible and so disgusting that even imabench, who often wears an Elsa wig and matching shoes to big movie premiers would never even wear one. AFC & NFC uniforms are also among the only jerseys in NFL history were players featured the same number. Talk about unlucky when as a starter you could numbers with other guys from the Cleveland Browns.

5) Loosing Pro Bowl Record and Unlucky Conference

Despite being born an all-star team, the AFC drew players from some of the worst teams in the NFL. From 2005-2012 this would have included teams like the Cleveland Browns, Oakland Raiders, New York Jets, and the Miami Dolphins. This poor selection of available AFC recruits resulted in a 3-5 record against the rival NFC (last 10 years) and a 21-22 series record before the NFC-AFC Pro Bowl was cancelled.

6) Forced to Play at the Worst NFL Locations

From 2005-2012, the AFC played at the Pro Bowl game in Aloha Stadium, which has received attention in recent years by Hawaii lawmakers who are concerned with the safety and overall physical integrity of the stadium. Needing million dollar repairs is rust to the overall facility, repairs to several hundred seats, and restroom facilities that need to be expanded to accommodate more patrons (2). Much of the rust has been linked to a design flaw in the weathering steel that was used to build the stadium, which interacts badly when contacted with sea salt - causing rust.

The one year in 2009 where the AFC didn't actually play at the run down Aloha Stadium, they played inMiami Gardens, Florida. F#$@% Flordia! Which is the same state that brought you godless apocopitic hurricanes, man-eating alligators, crazy gun owners who shoot people for wearing hoodies, oil spills, a Bush presidency, and of course, internet trolls named after imachairs. Talk about bad luck!

1)https://en.wikipedia.org...
2)https://en.wikipedia.org...;

Debate Round No. 1
imabench

Pro

1) The AFC All Star team

"Despite being loaded with some of the best and most popular players in the NFL"
"Despite being loaded with NFL stars year after year"

The AFC all star team at least had the luxury to have good players on their rosters. The Browns have been woefully unable to achieve that same feat despite having tremendous numbers of opportunities to draft great players over the years, as shown before, which shows that they are far more unlucky than the AFC All Star team.



"Since 2012, after having endured severe criticism from fans and sportswriters for over two decades of unexciting play"

Criticising on field performance?... The Browns have been criticized from fans, writers, and even coaches and players for bad play, and that criticism goes back way further than just 2012... The Browns have been much more unlucky in being criticized for their perofmance than the AFC All Star team was, to the point that its not even a contest.




2) Unluckiest Schedule

"What can be more unluckier.... than to not have some of their best players show up in the Pro Bowl?"

Not having any good players TO BEGIN WITH over the past ten years despite plenty of drafting opportunities would be unluckier, which is exactly what the Cleveland Browns have gone through.... Not only do the Browns lack good players to begin with, the Browns are also in one of the most difficult NFL divisions themselves, with the Browns routinely being pitted against the Steelers, Ravens, and Bengals... Each of whom has won the division once in the past 3 years

https://en.wikipedia.org...

So the Browns schedule is just as merciless as the AFC All star team's schedule is, but the Browns are not even afforded the luxury of having good players to work with, meaning they are far more unlucky than the AFC All Star team


"The Associated Press famously observed in 2012 that the game appeared to be like two-sides "having a pillow fight"(1) (which is sort of like that action scenes we saw in DDO The Movie)."

^ I'm going to ask for conduct points to be awarded to me for that one. If con insists on trying to troll and argue like a petty child then he may go ahead, but I won't stoop to his level.



3) Worst uniforms

Worst uniforms is a completely opinionated argument since literally any team can be seen as having the 'worst' uniforms by different people. The Browns uniforms are arguably bad since their helmets dont have a logo at all and their uniforms are literally the same color as poop, and even then, the actual team with the worst uniform in my opinion goes to the Pittsburg Steelers throwback uniforms:

http://www.ampedasia.com...;

They look like bumblebees for christs sake....

Con cannot prove in any shape or form that the AFC championship team have the absolute worst uniforms, and it can also be argued that the Browns uniforms are just as bad, even though both pale in comparison to some of the bad uniforms other teams have to use.



4) Record

"The AFC drew players from some of the worst teams in the NFL. From 2005-2012 this would have included teams like the Cleveland Browns..."

At least the AFC team got to pick the BETTER players on the Browns to work with, the Browns themselves meanwhile have to play with the ENTIRE Cleveland Browns football team in its season, which is a far unluckier fate to be faced with...


"Resulted in a 3-5 record against the rival NFC (last 10 years)"

That's still a better average than just about ALL of the Browns' records over the past 10 years.... A 3-5 record multiplied by 2 comes out to 6-10, and the browns have fallen below 6-10 in 8 of the past 10 seasons since they are currently off to a 2-10 start this year and likely wont win 4 in a row to finish out the year:
https://en.wikipedia.org...

So record wise the Cleveland Browns are indeed the unluckier team using the measurement of overall record



5) Stadium Costs

Aloha Stadium was opened up around 1975, the Browns stadium opened up in 1995, making it 20 years younger
Aloha Stadium cost $180 million to renovate recently, the Browns stadium cost $120 million to renovate recently

$180 million divided by 40 years of operation comes out to $4.5 million a year in renovation costs for Aloha Stadium
$120 million divided by 20 years of operation comes out to $6 million a year in renovation costs for the Browns Stadium

So despite being newer than Aloha Stadium by 2 full decades, the Browns have had to spend 75% more on average per year to keep it renovated... Meaning that when it comes to stadiums, the Browns have proven to be more unlucky than the AFC All-Star team

https://en.wikipedia.org...(Cleveland)#Renovations
https://en.wikipedia.org...



"F#$@% Flordia! Which is the same state that brought you.... internet trolls named after imachairs."

Really displaying your maturity as a debater arent ya? Hope forfeiting conduct points are worth it.

Strategery

Con

"Really displaying your maturity as a debater arent ya? Hope forfeiting conduct points are worth it."

Never thought the great imabench wouldn't be able to take a joke. Hope loosing some self-respect was worth it.

On Field Performance

"Cleveland Browns are indeed the unluckier team using the measurement of overall record."

False, because the Cleveland Browns, as you know, are in one of the most competitive divisions in the NFL and have had some consistently weak players. They at least have an excuse for their poor overall record.

"The Browns have been criticized from fans, writers, and even coaches and players for bad play, and that criticism goes back way further than just 2012..."

Completely wrong. AFC-NFC Pro Bowl Game (as I've already cited) is the only major all-star game in all professional sports that draws lower TV ratings than its regular-season games. This has been the case now for over two decades. In fact, the level of play was so underwhelming that the NFL commissioner in 2012 considered banning the all-star game all together (http://dailycaller.com...). In the end they just did away with the AFC, NFC conference teams instead.

"The Browns have been much more unlucky in being criticized for their perofmance than the AFC All Star team was, to the point that its not even a contest."

You're wrong again. The AFC All Star Team is one of only two teams in the last 10 years to be banned from the NFL Players Association due to poor fanfare and on the field performance.

"The AFC all star team at least had the luxury to have good players on their rosters."

Which makes it extremely unfortunate and inexplicable that they could never seem to keep fans happy,

Unlucky Draft Choices

"When it comes to drafting players, the Browns have been very unlucky in not only failing to draft great players, but even the players they do draft turn out to be massive busts."

The more embarrassing bust is being kicked out of the NFL after you've drafted an all-star team. If anyone has had an unlucky history of drafting players then, its the AFC /NFC teams.

Unlucky QB Trouble


"The most famous position the Browns have been lacking at is the QB position, where since 2005 the Browns have had 15 different people start at QB, about 1 and a half per year."

The AFC teams have tended to feature a new quarterback every single quarter during a game. Nobody has been more inconsistent at quarterback or used more QBs per game the AFC / NFC teams.

"No other team has gone through as many QB's in that time without findign someone reliable as the Cleveland Browns,"

Wrong again, the AFC quarterbacks have featured guys like Carson Palmer, Trent Green, Derek Andersen, Vince Young, and Andy Dalton. All high-draft pick players that completely failed to live up to their hype and have never won a superbowl. Then of course there was Dan Marino. Poor Dan!

Unlucky Division Difficulty

"The Browns are in the same division as the Bengals, the Steelers, and the Ravens, and they have sucked in their division tremendously"

So they are in a difficult division while still having a weak overall franchise. How is this less lucky than having all-star players but still having a 3-5 record for the last 10 years? Either the AFC's schedule is harder, or they just suck while having good players. Either way its extraordinary unlucky.

Players Getting Arrested


"Browns have had 20 players arrested for off the field incidents."

Please. This isn't even the most in the NFL.

Unlucky Coaching Issues

"The Browns, like draft picks, also cant get good coaches."

At least their coaches get six figure salaries per game and have an incentive to win (trip to the superbowl). The AFC team was consistently stacked with the coaches & staff from the division runner up for a game that's virtually pointless and doesn't effect at all the regular season.

Uniforms

"Con cannot prove in any shape or form that the AFC championship team have the absolute worst uniforms."

Actually I can. By using free-market principles we can determine that the AFC Pro Bowl jersey's are some of the least popular and least valuable jersey's in NFL history.

A 2011 AFC Pro Bowl jersey goes for about $20 (http://www.ebay.com...)

But the ugly vintage Steelers jerseys can go up to about $100 (http://www.ebay.com...)

Seriously. How many NFL collectors do you know that want to buy a Pro Bowl jersey?

Stadium

"when it comes to stadiums, the Browns have proven to be more unlucky than the AFC All-Star team."

Nope. Because when the Browns play at home you know they at least get some home field advantage from the fans. The AFC teams have had no such luck.

Debate Round No. 2
imabench

Pro

"Never thought the great imabench wouldn't be able to take a joke. Hope loosing some self-respect was worth it."

There's a difference between telling jokes and flat out being rude, but judging from your reaction you wouldn't know the difference between that, would you?



1) On Field Performance

"the Cleveland Browns, as you know, are in one of the most competitive divisions in the NFL"

Which is very unlucky for them... Only standing to prove why they are a very unlucky team... The AFC All Star Team despite their matchup still have a better record than what the Browns average in a season, making the Browns the unluckier team


"The Browns have had some consistently weak players. They at least have an excuse for their poor overall record."

Except the Browns have had a great many opportunities to draft great players over that time span, and have failed to capitalize, making them very unlucky.


(In response to the Browns being criticized before 2012) "Completely wrong"

Actually its completely correct, the Browns have been heavily criticized for their performance and a variety of other issues prior to 2012 even though you deny such a thing

http://espn.go.com...
http://sports.espn.go.com...


2) Draft Busts

"If anyone has had an unlucky history of drafting players then, its the AFC /NFC teams."

Except those teams actually have the ability to draft future Hall of Fame players, whereas the Browns cannot even draft half-decent players eben though theyve been given plenty of opportunity to do so...



3) QB trouble

"The AFC teams have tended to feature a new quarterback every single quarter during a game"

It's customary during All Star Games and Pro Bowl games in ANY sport for teams to cycle through their entire roster so that everyone on the roster has a chance to play. To claim that this somehow is a sign of weakness is simply semantical and desperate. The Browns clearly are unlucky when it comes to getting good quarterBacks, the AFC All Star team has had so many good QB's that they could switch QB's around at will during games and not have their performance be impacted.



4) Schedule difficulty

"How is this less lucky than having all-star players but still having a 3-5 record for the last 10 years"

Its less lucky because the Browns have had the opportunity to have potential All Star players, foiled those opportunities year after year, and couldn't match a 3-5 winning percentage in 8 of the past 10 seasons...



5) Arrested Players

"Please. This isn't even the most in the NFL."

Then you should have picked an actual NFL team to argue for instead ;) The AFC Championship team has had far, far fewer players get arrested, making the Browns far more unlucky by this measurement



6) Coaching issues

"The AFC team was consistently stacked with the coaches & staff from the division runner up"

Thank you for conceding that the AFC All Star Team consistently gets better coaches and staff than the Cleveland Browns



7) Uniforms

"A 2011 AFC Pro Bowl jersey goes for about $20"

Not only are you cherry picking your own evidence by looking solely at 2011, but your own link features jersey's for the AFC Pro Bowl Team going for $50 to $70 each... In addition to that, the price for jersey's is not an accurate measurement of overall appearance since other factors, such as player name recognition and player talent, are what really drives the price for jersey's, not the overall appearance. Johnny Manziel's jersey is one of the top selling jerseys in the NFL right now and thats entirely due to the off-the-field drama that has surrounded him ever since the Browns first drafted him.


8) Stadium

"Because when the Browns play at home you know they at least get some home field advantage from the fans."

The Browns get home field advantage and they STILL do worse than the AFC All Star Team 8 out of 10 times, meaning the browns are simply that much more unlucky... You also completely drop the point that despite the Browns stadium being newer, it costs the Browns far more on average to maintain than Aloha Stadium where the Pro Bowl is played at.



=========================================================================



- Con has dropped that the Browns have extraordinarily bad luck when it comes to drafting players
- Con has dropped that Browns players get arrested far more frequently than the AFC All Star Team
- Con has dropped that the Browns have been heavily criticized for their performance for much longer than the AFC All Star Team was
- Con has dropped that the Browns have had zero luck in getting any good QB's over the past 10 years
- Con has dropped that the Browns record falls below 6-10 far more frequently than the AFC All Star Teams overall record of 3-5
- Con has dropped that the Browns stadium costs are much greater despite being newer
- Con has cherry-picked his own sources for his arguments and displayed poor conduct


It is clear that the Cleveland Browns are more unlucky than the AFC All Star Team. For the reasons stated above, Vote Pro



Strategery

Con

Conduct Points

"There's a difference between telling jokes and flat out being rude, but judging from your reaction you wouldn't know the difference between that, would you?"

Sorry Ima, but playing the victim card doesn't really help your case here. Everyone who has seen or directed DDO The Movie would know how to Let It Go.

On Field Performance

"The AFC All Star Team despite their matchup still have a better record than what the Browns average in a season, making the Browns the unluckier team."

You still don't get it. The Browns have an excuse and a reason for there piss poor play, poor viewer ship, and poor fanfare. The AFC Team -being loaded with all-stars year after year- does not. There really is no excuse for an NFL All-Star team to have lower fanfare and TV ratings then all teams in the NFL, including the #%#$ Cleveland Browns!!

The AFC also drafted the best players in their conference year after year and now they are banned from the NFL! Which team has been more unlucky?? Before you answer maybe you should just say you dropped that argument.

(In response to the Browns being criticized before 2012) "Completely wrong"

Seriously, maybe you just can't read. But the facts clearly show that I stated that the AFC & NFC Teams were heavily criticized for OVER TWO DECADES (Round 1). Much longer than your fabricated lie.

Draft Busts

"Except those teams actually have the ability to draft future Hall of Fame players. "

Except the AFC for the past ten years have drafted their stars from the weakest of the two NFL conferences (Browns, Raiders, Jets, Dolphins).

Quarterbacks

"the AFC All Star team has had so many good QB's that they could switch QB's around at will during games and not have their performance be impacted."

When you switch up from quarterbacks like Peyton Manning, to terribly unlucky quarterbacks like Carson Palmer, Andy Dalton, and Vince Young, you're performance will still be effected.

Schedule difficulty

"Its less lucky because the Browns have had the opportunity to have potential All Star players, foiled those opportunities year after year,"

The AFC Team was so unlucky that they could only play for 8 of the past 10 seasons! One of two teams in the NFL to be eliminated in the past 10 years. Did you drop that point? To make matters worse, they will never again be able to make up their overall series record to the NFC (21-22).

Arrested Players

"Then you should have picked an actual NFL team to argue for instead"

The AFC Team is an NFL team. It consisted of all NFL players and coaches and was regulated by NFL Player's Association. Furthermore, the Brown's are actually lucky they don't have the most arrests in the NFL.

Coaching


"Thank you for conceding that the AFC All Star Team consistently gets better coaches and staff"

Absolutely not. Another argument (which you dropped) was that AFC / NFC coaches have no incentive to actually coach the game. There's no motivation for any coach to win the Pro Bowl because the game doesn't count towards regular season statistics, and the coaches have already lost.

Uniforms

"In addition to that, the price for jersey's is not an accurate measurement of overall appearance since other factors,"

You're the one cherry picking. I've clearly stated in R1 that the AFC is"Forced to wear NFL's Worse Uniforms." Which means they can be bad by definition to a variety of factors; including popularity, market value, and appearance.

Stadium


"The Browns get home field advantage and they STILL do worse than the AFC All Star Team 8 out of 10 times"

The AFC team only played football 8 times out of the last 10 years beacuse they were so bad, and each time they were guaranteed 100% to not have home field advantage.

"You also completely drop the point that it costs the Browns far more on average to maintain than Aloha Stadium where the Pro Bowl is played at.

You also completely dropped that in 2009, Aloha stadium was so bad the AFC Team had to play in #%$% Flordia!

-------------------

Pro dropped that the AFC Team was one of only two NFL teams eliminated by the NFL Players Association in the past 10 years.

Pro drops that the AFC Team -despite being loaded with All-Stars- received lower TV ratings and less fanfare than the Cleveland Browns.

Pro lies about the Cleveland Browns being criticized longer by sports writers than the AFC / NFC Teams

Pro cherry picks "Forced to wear NFL's Worse Uniforms." to mean worse appearing uniforms only

Pro incorrectly believes that there are justifiable reasons for All-Star teams to fail miserably with the media and fans

Pro drops the fact that players and coaches have no motivation to play in the Pro Bowl.

Pro ignores the fact that the AFC team drafts players from the weakest of the two NFL All-Star conferences.

Pro drops the fact that the AFC team was forced to play in Florida and can never have homefeild advantage.

Pro ignores the fact that their are other teams who have more arrests than the Browns.

Pro can't take a joke and refuses to "Let it Go!"

Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by imabench 1 year ago
imabench
Dont Mind Zarro she's just broken about what happened on her other debate ;)
Posted by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: Peepette// Mod action: Removed<

4 points to Con (S&G, Arguments), 1 point to Pro (Conduct). Reasons for voting decision: Not having any football knowledge whatsoever, I had to carefully pick through all arguments. Despite the Cleveland Browns shortcomings with bad draft picks, dud players, bad coaches, lacking fans, and bad press; Con made the better argument for the AFC. The AFC had all star players, but played with lack luster, they had runner up coaching, but not the worst. They were also hated by fans and press, played in a run-down stadium and managed to get booted from the NFL association. The AFC had all the means to do well but, simply did not; whereas the Browns were just a bad team. The AFC were the unlucky ones. Con gets points for spelling and grammar due to the unreadability of one of Pros statement in 4Recond R2. Conduct point to Pro. Con added some levity without showing lack of respect toward Con. Pro took unnecessary personal affront and blew it out of proportion.

[*Reason for removal*] Both the arguments and conduct points are sufficiently explained. However, the S&G point is confusing. I looked specifically at the point the voter references, but I can't see how it's unreadable. S&G has to be pretty obviously bad to merit awarding this point, and that hasn't been justified in this RFD.
************************************************************************
Posted by MagicAintReal 1 year ago
MagicAintReal
Nobody can see that clearly the Redskins are the unluckiest team??
They spend mad money on high quality free agents who consistently fail...
Posted by Zaradi 1 year ago
Zaradi
Think like Adrian Peterson (if I remember right) who was constantly getting hurt but when he was healthy he just rekt face constantly.
Posted by Zaradi 1 year ago
Zaradi
I don't pay enough attention to football to really debate this, but I feel like the only real point of contention could be something like injuries of players and how short of being unhealthy the players on the team would be kickass players, but they keep getting hurt and that's not really something that the org can do much to prevent. Most any other argument can be dismissed (with varying amounts of effort) by claims of sh*tty management.
Posted by imabench 1 year ago
imabench
The lions would also be a good one to pick in addition to the raiders now that i think about it @king
Posted by imabench 1 year ago
imabench
Youd still have to pick another team and argue for it as well, but then I could then take your arguemnt about sh*tty management and use that against you, so we'd be at a stalemate of sorts
Posted by Zaradi 1 year ago
Zaradi
Can I make the argument that none of the things you've listed are actually bad luck but a result of sh*tty management?
Posted by imabench 1 year ago
imabench
They would be a good bet not gonna lie
Posted by KingofEverything 1 year ago
KingofEverything
The only team I could come up with that might give the Browns a run for their money is the Raiders, and even then, I am not very confident about that position.
No votes have been placed for this debate.