The Instigator
muricanman
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points
The Contender
CountCheechula
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The Confederate Flag is not racist and it should be seen as a proud symbol of a proud people.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
muricanman
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/15/2014 Category: Society
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,435 times Debate No: 65211
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (7)
Votes (1)

 

muricanman

Pro

No anti-Southern slurs such as redneck, hillbilly, white trash, cracker, honky, traitor, and extremist.
Round 1 is for acceptance opening statements only.

I believe that The Confederate Flag, or the rebel flag, "racist" flag, and etc, is not a racist symbol.

Lets define racism: "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."
CountCheechula

Con

I shall accept your debate sir. Looking forward.
Debate Round No. 1
muricanman

Pro

Thanks for accepting, and let's get this started!

The BOP falls on both of us, as I have to prove that the rebel flag isn't racist, and you have to prove that it is.

So firstly, I am going to debunk the most major argument against the rebel flag: The flag is flown by the KKK, or Ku Klux Klan, so this makes the flag racist.

It is indeed true that the KKK flies rebel flags sometimes at their rallys. However, the KKK that flies it today is not in fact the original KKK. The original KKK that started as a vigilante group after the Civil War flew the Confederate Flag, not as a symbol of hatred or racism necessarily, but as simply a symbol of The South itself. They also considered themselves to be "at war" with the Radical Republicans, and since the Confederate Flag was a battle flag of the South, they decided that the flag would be a good symbol for their cause. Plus, back then the KKK was not a racist organization. They killed "Yankees", Republicans, and Blacks that they considered "uppity", meaning that they used their new found rights to harass and anger ex-Confederates. And, the second KKK, the one that started attacking Blacks simply for being Black, actually flew the American Flag much more then the rebel flag.

http://flashbak.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
CountCheechula

Con

Hi and thanks for this interesting topic to be discussed. I will prove two things:
The Confederate flag is racist and fascist.

The Flag,
It represents not only a band of states into one nation but is a proud emblem of one untied people by a common religion, culture, and moral system. Most southerns that rep this flag are normally from English or Scottish background. Most people from the Appalachian region are one the earliest arrivals to America. So being the first wave of Europeans they are closest ones being to referred to as 'American'. Of course we know the Natives own this land for thousands of years before but since you all invaded the territory and slaughtered everything in it, it's yours now.
Most of you are light skinned and light complexions along with a strong common bond from the Protestant religion. Most are Christians who do not pledge alliance to the Pope but rather God and God alone.
You all have similar culture like hunting, fishing, camping, drinking beer, having family BBQ's and so on.
You guys practice a strong family-based society and probably would want a ruler/leader likewise.

What I have known from History (I live in Michigan) and from the common wages from the South or people from the States that previously tried to leave are the closest thing to an actual ethnic stronghold that can be one nation. Certainly still today for the mixing of negro and white are forbidden because the exchanging of genes of different races messes up sperm pools and so on. It reminds me of a untied proud people who are one, like a Franco controlled Espana or a Mussolini controlled Italia. Most people in the south under this symbol of confederation are right-winged and conservative just like fascists of Europe. You guys can not stand to look at a foreign large far away bureaucracy ruled by people not of nationality nor your religion nor your culture. They force to give to those are not of you and it ticks your nation off. You guys should honestly get a supreme leader and call him Pap's or something and let you guys rule yourselves. Honestly I wish the south won and got its freedom and watch it run back by the 50's because from slave labor and no manufacturing they would be third world.

No why is the flag racist,
because the flag represents the goals and aims of the past confederacy and probably some portions of the southern populations would still support African slavery. Slavery is racist, I await for arguments.
Debate Round No. 2
muricanman

Pro

OK, so you believe that the flag is racist and fascist. Let's look over some definitions again:

Racism: "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

Fascism: "a form of radical authoritarian nationalism"

Radicalism: "advocating or based on thorough or complete political or social reform; representing or supporting an extreme section of a political party."

Authoritarianism: "a form of government characterized by absolute or blind obedience to authority, as against individual freedom and related to the expectation of unquestioning obedience."

Nationalism: "patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts."

So, while the South and the rebel flag indeed represent nationalism, they most certainly do not represent authoritarianism and radicalism. You actually proved this in your argument. "Most people in the south under this symbol of confederation are right-winged and conservative." This proves that the South is not radical, as conservatism is based upon things staying the same politically, socially, and culturally. "You guys can not stand to look at a foreign large far away bureaucracy ruled by people not of nationality nor your religion nor your culture." This proves that the South does not like to be ruled, which contradicts authoritarianism.

"What I have known from History (I live in Michigan) and from the common wages from the South or people from the States that previously tried to leave are the closest thing to an actual ethnic stronghold that can be one nation."

I actually agree with you on this one. The South indeed resembles a nation, or a culture/people. There is a book called American Nations by Colin Woodard, and he explains why America's cultures are so different.

"Certainly still today for the mixing of negro and white are forbidden because the exchanging of genes of different races messes up sperm pools and so on."

So, since you brought that up, I assume that you find this to be racist. But it does not fit the definition of racism, because it does not imply superiority, but rather the integrity of both Blacks and Whites.

"It reminds me of a untied proud people who are one, like a Franco controlled Espana or a Mussolini controlled Italia."

Yes, indeed it does. But let's not forget that Franco and Mussolini were fascists, but not RACIST fascists. Franco was a religious fascist, while Mussolini was generally just an extreme Italian/Roman nationalist. Most people confuse fascism with Nazism, but Nazism strongly differs from fascism by implying a German/White superiority. Generally fascism just means a strong government that is tied to a specific people.

"Honestly I wish the south won and got its freedom and watch it run back by the 50's because from slave labor and no manufacturing they would be third world."

"No why is the flag racist,
because the flag represents the goals and aims of the past confederacy and probably some portions of the southern populations would still support African slavery. Slavery is racist, I await for arguments."

If the South had won the war and slavery wouldn't have been abolished, it is almost 100% certain that the CSA would have emancipated their slaves by around 1880. Brazil was the last new world country to abolish slavery, and did so in 1888. "In 1864, the Confederate States began to abandon slavery. There are some indications that even without a war, the Confederacy would have ended slavery. Most historians believe that the Confederacy only started to abandon slavery once their defeat was imminent. If that were true then we are to believe that the CSA wanted independence more than they wanted to hold on to slavery. The CSA"s highest ranking generals, Robert E. Lee and Joseph E. Johnston were not slave holders and did not believe in slavery. And according to an 1860 census, only 31% of families owned slaves. 75% of families that owned slaves owned less than 10 and often worked beside them in the fields. The Confederate Constitution banned the overseas slave trade, and permitted Confederate states to abolish slavery within their borders if they wanted to do so. Slavery wasn"t abolished until 1868, 3 years after the war. Thus Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland and Delaware still had slaves."
A surprising fact about the confederacy is that they paid their soldiers equally, regardless of color. " The confederate Congress specified that black soldiers were to receive the same pay as the white soldiers. The Union army"s black soldiers were paid less than the white soldiers. A black soldier in the Union army would have been paid $10 a month with a $3 clothing fee taken out, leaving the soldier with $7 a month. White soldiers were paid $13 a month and were not forced to pay a clothing allowance, which is almost twice as much as the black soldiers. By contrast the Confederate army paid their privates of both races $11/month until 1864. Equal pay for both races in the federal army did not come into effect until June 1864. The Confederate Army also authorized a salary for black musicians in 1862."

Source: http://listverse.com...

Slavery by itself is not racist, first of all. It's when you incorporate the word African does it resemble racism. Still, African slavery does not imply racism, because it does not necessarily imply racial superiority. You might be surprised to know that only around 17% of Southerners owned slaves in 1860. There were 316,632 slaveowners in the CSA by the time the war broke out, and if you divide that by the amount of the free population, which was 5,447,220
CountCheechula

Con

CountCheechula forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
muricanman

Pro

Arguments extended.
CountCheechula

Con

CountCheechula forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
muricanman

Pro

Arguments extended for the final time.
CountCheechula

Con

CountCheechula forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by CountCheechula 2 years ago
CountCheechula
Sorry for my forfeit I have had some serious personal issues come up. Conduct shall be taken away from me.
Posted by SCOTSKNIGHT12 2 years ago
SCOTSKNIGHT12
This is a great debate guys
Posted by SCOTSKNIGHT12 2 years ago
SCOTSKNIGHT12
CountCheechula that is the most racist and insulting thing I've ever heard from someone up north.
Posted by debate_power 2 years ago
debate_power
It's not racist but it represents what was an organization that owned slaves. There is definitely a difference.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
Only poverty pimps like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson made it racist. They jump on anything and call it racist. They have to keep racism on the front lines or they will be looking for legitimate employment. Which neither are that smart to do.I probably would have been for the south then too. II am against an overbearing, overreaching federal government.And I am no more racist than Jesus was.The man I look up to is Martin Luther King JR." Judge a man by the content of his character, not by the coor of his skin".If blacks in this country had done that they never would have voted 95% for Obama.
Posted by muricanman 2 years ago
muricanman
Prove that the flag was dedicated to slavery. I guess the US flag is racist too? Because slavery happened in The USA much longer then in The CSA. And what is a better symbol of The South and Southern heritage other than the Southern flag? It represents at least the one time in all our history that we were independent. For better or worse.
Posted by Stefy 2 years ago
Stefy
It is a battle flag for an army dedicated to African enslavement. I respect that Southerners want to celebrate their heritage, but there are much better ways to do so. Taking the racist intent and connotation behind the flag is revisionist history and is not healthy. And it's not necessarily a symbol of Southern heritage at all. I don't think all southerners supported slavery back then and I don't think the vast majority of them do now.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
muricanmanCountCheechulaTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture