The Instigator
harrytruman
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Roadmaster55
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

The Confederate Flag is racist

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/5/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 11 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 342 times Debate No: 84559
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (5)
Votes (0)

 

harrytruman

Pro

Do not accept this debate unless you do not believe the confederate flag to be racist and you have a good argument for me, I did have someone who was on my side debate against me and present nonsense arguments, if you do this you are disqualified.
Many people do not consider the confederate flag to be racist, but looking at this with a general knowledge of history reveals otherwise. These people try to say that the confederate flag is not a symbol of racism or slavery, but a symbol of rebellion and states" rights. What these people forget to include is that the Nazi flag, the swastika, was invented as a symbol of German independence and nationality, so in reality, saying that the confederate flag is not racist, is like hanging a big swastika over your house and saying that you are only honoring your German heritage. Regardless of what the civil war was about, the confederate flag is a symbol of racism, or it is not racist to fly swastikas, the civil war was started because the north enforced tariffs on foreign goods to get people to buy goods from northern factories, and the south did not want to pay these tariffs, so they rebelled. World War 2 was started because France enforced reparations and Germany did not want to pay them, so they rebelled.
Roadmaster55

Con

First of all in literal terms the flag itself can not be racist because it's an inanimate object with no thoughts or opinions. World War 2 started when Germany invaded Poland......as atrocious as it is to enslave other human beings you can hardly compare it apples to apples with genocide. The confederate flag we know today was a battle flag, a flag carried by fighting men not the national flag which represented the country as a whole. If the complete abolition of slavery was the true goal of the union the emancipation proclamation would have prohibited slavery in all states not just those in rebellion. The fact is there were still plenty of slaves in the north during the war and until the 13th amendment was passed. What would have been best for the south and it's economy would have been a more gradual phasing out of slavery but with the threat of economic ruin looming, the south which had an agriculture based economy decided to take action to protect their livelihood . A large percentage of those who fought for the confederacy in the war did not even possess slaves because they were to poor. These men in most cases were fighting for their home and for states rights, would you have done otherwise? General Robert E. Lee himself freed his slaves in 1862 by his own free will whilst Ulysses S. Grant kept his slaves until the 13th amendment took affect. Most of our slaves were actually captured by New England slave traders and brought to this country on their ships. The English and the French participated in slave trading as well. The issue went deeper than slavery and continues to go deeper than slavery which is why the flag is so significant. The flag represents a resolute opposition to the federal government erasing state sovereignty.
Debate Round No. 1
harrytruman

Pro

"World War 2 started when Germany invaded Poland......as atrocious as it is to enslave other human beings you can hardly compare it apples to apples with genocide."
No, this is what started the war part of world war 2, the initial conflict was about reparations, just as the initial conflict in the civil war was tariffs, but the actual war started when the south attacked union arming stations.
"The confederate flag we know today was a battle flag, a flag carried by fighting men not the national flag which represented the country as a whole. If the complete abolition of slavery was the true goal of the union the emancipation proclamation would have prohibited slavery in all states not just those in rebellion."
I didn't doubt that the union could not care less about slavery, in fact the only one trying to abolish it, in the government, was lincoln. Additional, slavery was not banned in the union states by he emancipation proclamation because all of the states that stayed in the union had already illegalized slavery, and only states that kept slavery legal were in the confederacy, now it is starting to make sense why people consider the confederacy racist.
"The fact is there were still plenty of slaves in the north during the war and until the 13th amendment was passed. What would have been best for the south and it's economy would have been a more gradual phasing out of slavery but with the threat of economic ruin looming, the south which had an agriculture based economy decided to take action to protect their livelihood ."
They didn't want to pay tariffs, the whole war was about money. $$$$
"A large percentage of those who fought for the confederacy in the war did not even possess slaves because they were to poor. These men in most cases were fighting for their home and for states rights, would you have done otherwise?"
That's not how the war started, first it was tariffs, the south succeeded and attacked union arming stations, the north declared war, the south claimed they wee violating states rights, Lincoln decided to turn he war into a war about slavery, the north won the war and the KKK decided to use the confederate flag and kill black people.
"General Robert E. Lee himself freed his slaves in 1862 by his own free will whilst Ulysses S. Grant kept his slaves until the 13th amendment took affect. Most of our slaves were actually captured by New England slave traders and brought to this country on their ships. The English and the French participated in slave trading as well. The issue went deeper than slavery and continues to go deeper than slavery which is why the flag is so significant. The flag represents a resolute opposition to the federal government erasing state sovereignty."
I know that, but truthfully, the south got together in a confederacy to protect their slavery, this is why the confederacy was formed, there is a big difference between why the confederacy was founded, and why the civil war started.
Roadmaster55

Con

Germany invaded Poland on September 01,1939. This was the start of the Second World War. Hitler invaded Poland simply because he could, he wanted more land for his people because he felt that they were superior and that they deserved it, it's the same reason he invaded half of Europe. Please explain to me what you mean about the French forcing them to pay reparations, I have never heard this and upon researching it could not corroborate it. This comparison with Nazi Germany is a reach and beside the point in my opinion. Slavery was legal for 85 years in this country. Why doesn't that make the stars and stripes a symbol of racism? The Confederacy lasted 4 years and yet everyone finds the confederate flag far more offensive. Maryland, Missouri, Delaware, and Kentucky all stayed in the union, they were slave states(Hypocrisy), not to mention that Lincoln gave a free pass to areas in the south already occupied by the union, hoping to gain loyalty of whites in those areas. Tariffs were imposed and the war was about money, tax money, Lincoln himself admitted that. So why then should the flag be considered racist and was it worth 620,000 lives? Remember the south seceded peaceably 5 days before they attacked Fort Sumter in Charleston, South Carolina. In light of the south's secession Lincoln ordered the 68 troops stationed in Charleston to withdraw to Fort Sumter because he felt it to be Union property this was his stand against the secession and the spark that instigated a very,very bloody and costly war. The people of South Carolina felt the fort was the property of the newly formed confederacy and that is why they attacked. Though it is merely a small part of the equation even if slavery was the entire reason for the war, ask yourself this, if another country that had already abolished slavery before the union did, came along and waged war against us because slavery was unjust, would it be any different? Other countries including the union were allowed to abolish slavery in their own time and yet that was not the case for the south. The abolition of slavery in the south likely wouldn't have been far in the future as slave trading was coming to an end. Lincoln wasn't exactly who everyone believes him to be today. In Charleston, Illinois, on September 18, 1858, Lincoln made his position clear in a debate against Stephen Douglas while running for senator. "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races," he began, going on to say that he opposed blacks having the right to vote. I encourage anyone who feels passionate about this topic or anyone who doubts my argument to research it using credible resources and come to your own conclusion.
Debate Round No. 2
harrytruman

Pro

Yeah I told you why it is racist, don't act like I didn't.
Roadmaster55

Con

It would seem as though you are at a loss for words sir. Please tell me what part of your argument I didn't undermine. Just because you said it doesn't make it so. If you can read everything that I wrote and maintain the stance that the Confederate flag is racist, delusion must have a strong foothold. I believe the only issue that I didn't cover in my last post was the fact that the kkk uses the Confederate flag. They use the American flag as well, do you share their beliefs simply because they use it? They also burn crosses, this does not mean that Jesus is cool with what they do. I have three reasons why I display a confederate flag, none of which has anything to do with racism. Reason 1- I am a proud southerner, Reason 2- Out of respect for those who fought, which happens to include my ancestors, and last but not least Reason 3- I display the Confederate flag as a clear sign that I do not support what is going on in the U.S. government and our society.
Debate Round No. 3
harrytruman

Pro

The confederacy was made to protect the institution of slavery, the confederate flag is a symbol of this union. The United States was created to protect our liberties, so the American flag is a symbol of our liberties, which are going away fast but that is a different story, whereas the confederate flag is a symbol of the institution of slavery.
Roadmaster55

Con

There are a few fatal flaws in your argument, first of all when this country was formed slavery was an institution and we were killing and displacing Native Americans left and right , this country was formed to protect our liberties but this didn't include slaves as you will see in article 4, section 4 of the Constitution, further more this debate is all about whether or not the flag is racist. Slaves don't have to be black,or a race other than those who enslave them.....starting in the early 1600's England began capturing Irish (white) people and selling them as slaves to all their various colonies including America. This didn't start coming to an end until the Irish rebellion in 1798, and until this point the majority of slaves were white! Slave labor was not chosen on the basis of race but rather where they were the cheapest and most readily available. What made Africans so readily available you ask? African slaves were not simply knocked on the head and dragged back to the ships. The vast majority of African slaves were captured by rival African tribes. Some were kept as their own slaves and some were sold to other countries. Most civilized countries were guilty of using slave labor at some point including the United States of America so why the hypocrisy? There is also hypocrisy regarding the unions stance on race and equality. Though they may have been in favor of abolition they didn't regard blacks as their equals as evidenced in a statement made by Abraham Lincoln that I quoted in round 2, and race is the key topic in this debate not slavery. The Dred Scott decision was made by the U.S. Supreme Court just 4 years before the civil war took place which ruled that a slave was still his or her masters property even if he or she ventured into a free state. Have you ever noticed that the time when talk of abolition started happened to coincide with the start of the industrial revolution? Perhaps it is mere coincidence , but I think not. The significance of the industrial revolution in relation to this topic is that it mostly took place in the northern states and by the time the south seceded the north's economy was primarily industry based nullifying slave labor as a necessity. The south on the other hand had a primarily agriculture based economy. The main thing that I would like everyone to take away from all this is that race and slavery were viewed much differently the world over. Everyone was guilty of it but society has changed and so have views on race, this includes the south as much as some would love to denounce us. Race does not have to be an issue in modern day America. It is an issue only because it is being manipulated for political agendas and it is driving us apart. It is to the benefit of liberal politicians to do so because they can use it as a tool to push for agendas that will get them votes.
Debate Round No. 4
harrytruman

Pro

"There are a few fatal flaws in your argument, first of all when this country was formed slavery was an institution and we were killing and displacing Native Americans left and right , this country was formed to protect our liberties but this didn't include slaves as you will see in article 4, section 4 of the Constitution, further more this debate is all about whether or not the flag is racist. Slaves don't have to be black,or a race other than those who enslave them.....starting in the early 1600's England began capturing Irish (white) people and selling them as slaves to all their various colonies including America."
Yes, I know this, then the Muslims decided to kidnap the Africans because it is very easy to tell a slave from a free man if the slaves are all black, and the free men are all white.
"This didn't start coming to an end until the Irish rebellion in 1798, and until this point the majority of slaves were white! Slave labor was not chosen on the basis of race but rather where they were the cheapest and most readily available. What made Africans so readily available you ask? African slaves were not simply knocked on the head and dragged back to the ships. The vast majority of African slaves were captured by rival African tribes."
Actually, the Muslims went down into Africa, kidnapped Africans, brought them up to the middle east and sold them, then the Europeans decided "hey, these Native Americans keep dying and there isn't enough of them to do all this sugar island work", so they started buying Black slaves from the Muslims and then one guy said "hey, I got these Chinese slaves, how about they come over to slave also!"
"Some were kept as their own slaves and some were sold to other countries. Most civilized countries were guilty of using slave labor at some point including the United States of America so why the hypocrisy? There is also hypocrisy regarding the unions stance on race and equality."
I didn't say that our country was a slave nation, I just said that the confederate flag is racist.
"Though they may have been in favor of abolition they didn't regard blacks as their equals as evidenced in a statement made by Abraham Lincoln that I quoted in round 2, and race is the key topic in this debate not slavery. The Dred Scott decision was made by the U.S. Supreme Court just 4 years before the civil war took place which ruled that a slave was still his or her masters property even if he or she ventured into a free state. Have you ever noticed that the time when talk of abolition started happened to coincide with the start of the industrial revolution? Perhaps it is mere coincidence , but I think not. The significance of the industrial revolution in relation to this topic is that it mostly took place in the northern states and by the time the south seceded the north's economy was primarily industry based nullifying slave labor as a necessity."
I know that, the north wanted to get rid f slavery so the could institute "wage slavery", its genius! Under the wage slavery system, you get more money because the wage slaves are working at factories so it produces more money, additionally, slaves won't run away because technically they are free, isn't it great, someone can work for 14 hours a day in dangerous conditions with the ever present threat of being ludlow massacred if you should quit, and still be considered free!
"The south on the other hand had a primarily agriculture based economy. The main thing that I would like everyone to take away from all this is that race and slavery were viewed much differently the world over. Everyone was guilty of it but society has changed and so have views on race, this includes the south as much as some would love to denounce us. Race does not have to be an issue in modern day America. It is an issue only because it is being manipulated for political agendas and it is driving us apart. It is to the benefit of liberal politicians to do so because they can use it as a tool to push for agendas that will get them votes."
Roadmaster55

Con

Without perspective there can be no frame of reference, which is why you have to look at the rest of the world and the whole country in that time period. If the confederate flag is racist then so is the British flag, the French flag, the Dutch flag and most relevant in this debate the American flag. The entire point of this debate is to determine if the confederate flag is racist. This is contingent upon whether or not slavery is racist, even though slavery only factored into the decision to secede rather than being the basis for the decision. Even if it was the basis for the decision it wouldn't matter in this particular debate because slavery in itself does not discriminate. Whites have been enslaved by whites, blacks have been enslaved by blacks, Chinese have been enslaved by Chinese, and every combination in between. This is supported throughout history, so how then would slavery and thereby the Confederate flag be racist? I reiterate, please if you care about this topic and you doubt what has been said on either side of the argument please do your own research. It's amazing some of the things that get passed over in the history books.
Debate Round No. 5
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Roadmaster55 11 months ago
Roadmaster55
I made an error in my argument, the first engagement of the civil war actually took place 4 months from the time of secession.
Posted by PhiteWower 11 months ago
PhiteWower
How can an inanimate object be "racist"?
Posted by LaughingRiddle 11 months ago
LaughingRiddle
Wake up; no one cares about the word 'racist' anymore.

Moronic liberals like you have used this as a boogeyman word for too long.

Race is real and it is creating problems and apparently only white people are racists when we are alarmed by the reality of the awful situation it is creating.

Society is dead and rotting at the grassroots level and it all has to do with diversity. IF everyone would stay away from coming to the west looking for money and hand outs they don't deserve while just causing irreparable damage to civil society.

We are sowing he seeds of human extinction with this nonsense.
Posted by Dkice4 11 months ago
Dkice4
Pro needs to understand that all of his accusations can just as easily be applied to the American flag, which, may I add, flew over state sanctioned slavery for over 89 years. Secondly, the irrational juxtaposition of the Confederate flag and the Nazi flag. Southerners did what the colonists did, that is why they could not be imprisoned or tried in court following the war. There's a history lesson for you, which, sorry to say, is always written by the victors.
Posted by JordanFunk 11 months ago
JordanFunk
I agree 110% with the con side, great argument!
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