The Instigator
Farooq
Con (against)
Winning
31 Points
The Contender
Umasi93
Pro (for)
Losing
12 Points

The Confederate Flag, the stars n' bars is offensive and should be disdained

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/30/2008 Category: Society
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,253 times Debate No: 4555
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (13)

 

Farooq

Con

For some sort of strange reason the Confederate flag is somehow seen as offensive and as an evil symbol, rather than as significant historical symbol and icon of North American heritage as a rational person would regard it as. But these accusations are baseless, and should be ignored as wails of the ignorant and ill informed. Are there truly any viable concerns agianst such a symbol?
Umasi93

Pro

Opponents of the Confederate flag see it as an overt symbol of racism, both for the history of racial slavery in the United States, and the establishment of Jim Crow laws by Southern states following the end of Reconstruction in late 1870s, enforcing racial segregation within state borders for nearly a century until the Civil Rights Movement.

Much like the Swastika is illegal in Germany now.
"The German (and Austrian) postwar criminal code makes the public showing of the swastika and other Nazi symbols illegal and punishable, except for scholarly reasons." - Wikipedia

the confederate flag should also be barred from use and maybe as a suggestion the united states flag or a new southern pride flag be adopted.
Debate Round No. 1
Farooq

Con

The Confederate Flag, a symbol of racism? Why would you say this? True the country which it represents was rtaher strong in adocating for slvaery and apartheid, but so was the United States. Keep in mind it was not Lincoln, but King George III who was the first to declare all slaves in America to be free, and had his armies succeded the practice would have ended in that corner of the empire far sooner.

Comparing the Confederacy to the Nazis of course is highly unwarranted. Wheras the Nazi flag was designed to pander to a specific, forbidden ideaology, the Confederate was not, but rather was derived as symbol of their new nation and of their independeance from American rule, which was abhorred by its citizenry. Mnay other nations of the time had apartheid and slavery, the United States (in Maryland, Missouri) included as well as Brazil and Russia. If you were to condemn all countries from ancient time periods such as this for violating human rights' standards I'm afraid there wouldn't be that mnay accpetable flags or relics left from this era. P
Umasi93

Pro

Why would someone condemn those countries since most of the countries that had slaves slowly abolished it peacefully. The Confederacy went to war to keep people oppressed.

Even though this argument is not about Nazi Germany id like to point out that like the confederate flag the Nazi flag was the flag adopted by a country after a revolution in public opinion in favor of the Confederacy/Nazi Germany. that's why I brought up the Nazi flag. That and the fact that both regimes stood for something evil.

The Confederate Flag, the stars n' bars is offensive, it stands for the confederacy it has only recently begun to stand for southern pride. their are other ways to express your proudness for the south.

The plain matter is that Some hate groups use the Southern Cross as one of the symbols associated with their organizations, including racists, separatists, Neo-Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan.
Debate Round No. 2
Farooq

Con

The Confederacy went to war for the sole reason of "keeping people oppressed?". You really need to relearn your history properly, for obvious you have never studied the American Civil War. There were a variety of reasons involved, the most prominently of the role of the federal government. Many Southern States felt that their political muscle was no longer sufficient to represent their values in Washington and devised a plan to remedy the divided union by dissolving it. The more conservative approach to slavery certainly played a role in it, but keep in mind patriotism and different interpretations' of the constitution were the primary causes, though ignored by American propagandists, who as winners, wrote history. The South did not "go to war", they were eager to sign a peace treaty, so long as they retained their independence, it was diehard federalists who pressed the war and refused to vacate foreign soil.

Even if you cannot see past the slavery issue, and believe the North was justified in their crusade against the horrid Southern slave-holding animals and their flag (which represented their cause). In that case why do not abhor the AMERICAN flag as well? For keep in mind when the Revolutionary War broke out, King George, like Lincoln four-score and twenty year later, felt it best to spread discontent behind enemy lines and gain allies by declaring all slaves in enemy territory were to be free. Even after their defeat, binding the Negroes of America many more years of slavery, the British command ignored the protests of Washington and refused to return any human "property" in New York over the Rebels who claimed the slaves as their own, instead they were freed and fled to other corners of the Empire. On Friday your country will celebrate this victory, because there were other issues at stake other than slavery worth celebrating about. Likewise, had the South split off they would be also celebrating, even in a post-slavery society. If you insist calling the Confederacy, Jefferson Davies, Robert Lee, Judah Benjamin and their flag "things that stand for evil" than I suggest you say the same things about the USA, George Washington, James Madison as well. Both Davies and Washington stood for national independence, for democratic systems for whites, and for slavery. You cannot honestly pay homage to one and abhor the other. Likewise with the flags they fought under.

As for the argument that the symbol in question is employed by some certain hate groups, what is your point? The Cross was used by Crusaders, oppressive feudal regimes, and a variety of other nasty people as an icon but to this day it still seen as a traditional symbol of Christianity. Likewise with many other symbols. Symbols mean nothing by themselves, they merely take on the guise of the people who employ them, and most are used for purposes good, evil, and mundane
Umasi93

Pro

Im sorry If my argument seem a bit too sensational. I often get into fights with people over me wanting to protect life. But when most people and in the end thats what its all about the way people view the flag,
they dont see this
http://image48.webshots.com...
they see
http://en.wikipedia.org....

"If you insist calling the Confederacy, Jefferson Davies, Robert Lee, Judah Benjamin and their flag "things that stand for evil" than I suggest you say the same things about the USA, George Washington, James Madison as well."

Washington was the only prominent, slaveholding Founding Father who succeeded at emancipating his slaves. He did not free his slaves in his lifetime, however, but instead included a provision in his will to free his slaves upon the death of his wife.

As for Madison I aint saying all americans had a clean plate. I am however saying that the slavery ended in the united states because of the north not the confederacy.

yes the south secceded from the union for multiple reasons one of them slavery another apperant misrepresentation.

Bleeding Kansas and The election of Lincoln, who the South perceived to be an abolitionist, in 1860 was the final straw, and the secession of seven Southern states followed soon after.

So I would say slavery was the main issue.
I just wish the south would find a new way to show its pride.
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by my.matryoshka 8 years ago
my.matryoshka
From what I've learned from talking with people of Southern heritage, it's that they don't think the flag symbolizes anything negative. Besides, a Confederate form of government fails inevitably, so if they had succeeded then they would've done a lot of changing or came back to the States.
Posted by goldspurs 8 years ago
goldspurs
sonofzapp,

How is what you said not racist? Generalizing "country people as almost completly racist?

How could you possibly know that?

And how could you know that most people who fly the flag are racist? Once again you are generalizing. I fly the confederate flag along with the texas and American flag. My reason for flying is not out of hate but pride. For I had many ancestors who fought in the civil war for the south.

Many extremist groups also use the Celtic Cross as their symbol. Does it mean we should ban that and label anyone else who uses it as an extremist?
Posted by sonofzapp 8 years ago
sonofzapp
i agree with you wholeheartedly umasi. im a black kid in fredricksburg Va, and i have to deal with all the confederate sh!t all the time. And dude the confederate flag is most often a symbol of racism. I know this because I go to school with these country bastards everyday, and most if not all of them are racists, or at least have no love for black ppl. to say that the flag doesnt represent slavery and racism is very foolish condidering the fact that most ppl who fly it are racists themselves. MLK! MLK! MLK! MLK! lol jk.
Posted by Wierdkp326 8 years ago
Wierdkp326
Well said, Farooq. Definitely a difficult topic to take on. Umasi's arguments seem a little too sensational.
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