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The Confederate flag should be outlawed in tax-payer supported venues

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/26/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 782 times Debate No: 34205
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Although we have freedom of speech otherwise, the Confederate’s (like the Nazis’) flag(s) should be outlawed in tax-payer supported venues because of its racist and treasonous symbolism. The US majority’s perception of the flag(s) doesn’t change due to minorities (e.g. Confederates, the KKK, et. al.) deny their racism (and racist heritage) or divisive offensiveness.

Vice-President Alexander Stephens specifies the CSA’s Cornerstone:

The… [CSA’s] constitution has put at rest … questions relating to African slavery … the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution.... Its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government … based upon this…. [Northerners are] wrong…. They… make things equal which the Creator had made unequal…. With the negro… Subordination is his place. He… is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system… in conformity with the ordinance of the Creator…. Our confederacy is founded upon principles in strict conformity with these laws… the real "corner-stone" in our new edifice.

Additionally, a nation’s declaration of independence (or secession) is sufficient enough to explain its cause for nationhood. Despite denial, each signer of the “Declaration of Causes of Seceding States” first and foremost expresses what they hold as undeniable truths:

We hold as undeniable truths that the…States… were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race….servitude of the African race…is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races… would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation….

The nation divided over slavery after all main Protestant churches did in the 1830s and 40s.

White guilt causes denial of their “undeniable truths” is demonstrated in rebuttals quoted in the first sentence after the bullets below:

  • Some slave-holding states and counties didn’t secede. Kentucky and Missouri were under US military occupation before they could secede. Not all slave-holders were willing to lose everything because of treason.
  • US soldiers owned slaves. Some southern soldiers were loyal. Although Grant didn’t own any slaves, his wife inherited some which were freed. Northern states outlawed slavery. A racist or slave-owning minority didn’t typify the US any more than southern homosexuals made the south homosexual.
  • Lee didn’t own slaves. As executor of his father-in-law’s estate he was forced by court order, against his will, to free his wife’s inherited slaves. He flogged a legally freed slave (by Custis’ will).
  • The flag represents cultural heritage. A heritage and culture is racist denial over a century past the War. Alexis de Tocqueville, (a credible non-US observer who predicted the US as a world power) in his book “Democracy in America” (1830) observes:
    These two [north and south]… differ only in one way. [One] admitted slavery, while [the other] … has prohibited it….. The difference between liberty and servitude....

    The influence of slavery… affects people's character. [In the north] … the character of the people is enterprising and energetic…. the [southerner] scorns...Labor…, an idle man; … he covets… pleasure and excitement; and the energy which [the northerner] devotes to [monetary] gain turns with him [the southerner] to a passionate love of … military exercises… from a very early age…. Slavery prevents the whites not only from becoming opulent, but even from desiring to become so….
    It is difficult to imagine a strong union between a nation … when one side is losing strength and the other is gaining it.… [With] deep-seated uneasiness and unrest....The prosperity of the United States is the source of its most serious danger…. It awakens … feelings of envy, mistrust, and regret... The United States must inevitably become one of the greatest nations in the world.... Riches, power, and fame cannot fail to be theirs at some future time….
  • The War wasn’t about racism, rather a war northern aggression. Racist slavery is the cause of secession according to its declarations. The war resulted from US’s defense of its foreign military installations at Ft. Sumter. Would the US do any differently if the Cubans, Japanese, or Germans militarily occupied any of our installations in their country?
  • If the CSA flag is racist, then the US’s is too due to its genocide. The US did violate its Declaration: “All men are created equal. They are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights; among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.” Yet this foundation has resulted in today’s intolerance for racism. The US wasn’t founded and hasn’t upheld white supremacy 100% of its existence as did the CSA. Vice-President Stephens opposed the US Constitution:
    The new [CSA] constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to … African slavery …. [Thomas Jefferson - author of our Constitution] rested upon the assumption of the equality of races…. Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man….
  • The War was about state’s rights. So was the southern civil rights movement. What was the universal state’s right for which the CSA was created? It seceded for the rights to enslave, mulatto-make (80% of US blacks are also white) outside of marriage in sex trafficking (i.e. pimping), outlaw people from reading (even the Bible), strip people naked to poke and prod every orifice of their body, sell babies out from under their mothers, forbid sex inside of marriage, breed humans as animals against their will, rape, deny freedom of the press (abolitionist literature was outlawed as seditious), and many other racist rights. Those that abuse, lose. The war was because the south attacked the US’s Sumter.
  • How dare you impugn the integrity of US heroes like Lee and Jackson? Lee and President Davis didn’t regain citizenship till a century after their death under presidential pardon (for treason) by Ford and Carter.
  • the Confederate flag, then leave. The Confederates before and after the war left the US. Those in the majority like their country and remain as “damn Yankees. Since all US citizens have always been Yankees like “Yankee Doodle” George Washington, non-Yankees are foreigners needing a passport or green card. “The Yanks are coming” (WWI), “I’m a Yankee Doodle Dandy” (WWII), and “Yankee Go Home” further reinforce such truth.
  • Only 1/3 of the southerners owned slaves. War is typically a class war. Poor whites wanted secession to maintain their social status above blacks. Whites feared black reprisal.
  • Blacks fought for the CSA. For millennia slaves were used against their own people. Illiterate slaves often had no idea what the Confederacy was about. The Army teaches, It doesn’t matter what a war is about or whether you agree with it. You have a gun and so does the other guy. It’s you or him who’ll live. Who will it be?

By reproaching all whites (not to mention Christians), CSA flag waving backfires by solidifying a moral basis for all Caucasians to lose their cultural heritage centered on “freedom and justice for all.” Neo-Confederates made MLK a national hero with his own holiday. The US has judged the Confederacy as the “vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored” as sung in our patriotic “Battle Hymn of the Republic.”



First of all, the Confederate flag is not racist in anyway. Just because racists would wave them around (and probably have been the majority of the south), it doesn't mean that the flag itself or it's implementation is racist. And it's a vital part of the first amendment, it seems as though our constitution is being shredded day by day. Many people from the south are warning that one more example of political correctness on another amendment would be met with a second civil war.

And regarding some of your arguments, I have to say that you may be the one that is more prejudice than any other southerner I've known. You say that nearly all whites (not to mention Christians) agreed with the concept of slavery and the Confederacy itself. History tells us, this is simply not true. And who are you to say that all wars are class wars? Maybe most domestic or civil wars could be, but not all of them and especially none of the foreign wars we've fought (exception of the Cold War).

I think that the Confederate flag causing this much concern is ridiculous, if some farmer wearing a wife-beater wants to drink a 12 pack of beer on his front porch under a Confederate flag then we should let him. And do you think I can see some websites to back up your claims?
Debate Round No. 1


We are debating whether the Confederate flag (being an offensively racist symbol) should be allowed in tax-payer supported venues. Pro’s reasoning is for the same – and many additional – reasons as to why the Nazi flag shouldn’t be flown in such venues. Since tax-payers are required by law to pay for venues (e.g. government land, buildings, material, etc.), they shouldn’t be forced to promote or advocate for racism.

  • Qualification: the Confederate flag refers only to the one (battle flag that the KKK flies). Only this flag, unless specified otherwise, is the subject of this debate.

Pro is not debating:

  • Constitutional rights favoring offensively racists’ expressionism in non-taxpayer venues.

    • Both Pro and Con agree (Pro did prior to this debate) that such freedom of expression is and should remain our legally protected right in non-taxpayer venues.

  • Whether or not the flag is a racist symbol, unless Con asserts that no one thinks so.

    • It is an established fact that people believe that the flag is racist.

  • Whether because one interprets an expression as meaning one thing negates another’s interpretation of the same.

    • Everyone interprets words and symbols through their own lenses.

  • Whether the majority of whites or Christians favor/favored slavery or the Confederacy.

    • We agree (Pro did prior to this debate) that the majority of whites and Christians in America were and are against both.

      • Pro’s opening statement communicated that the CSA flag makes all whites and Christians look bad. CSA and neo-CSA struggle is a quicksand: the more one struggles the more he loses. This is blatently evident from Ft. Sumter to the present. They blind themselves to the continual trend. Presence of CSA flags are waning where (in all US states) it is a legal. Unfortunately, the bad whites solidfy the moral ground to supplant the Christian and/or the white majority culture to others. The KKK should hate the CSA flag(s) while the NAACP secretly love it. In the end, we deserve what we get. Nonetheless, the good-guys majority for the bad.

      • After the Nazis, Jews have successfully attempted to eliminate Christian expressionism in tax-payer venues because of their well-founded fear of Christian racism. Racism is not the “Cornerstone” of Christianity, nor is it even a tenant.

      • Neo-Confederate usage of war of attrition verifies their acknowledgement of the anti-racist pro-Union majority of their conquered and occupied people (like some Indians, English torries, Spanish and Mexican loyalists, along with others).

      • White and Christian majority (in multiple former CSA states) have always been anti-slavery/anti-CSA.

        • My home is in a town (and adjacent counties) formerly (in a former CSA state) under CSA control and against the will of the majority and common in the CSA. We’ve a monument in our downtown which reads, For the Union, where relatives of our patriots funded and erected a several ton memorial of our unarmed people that were massacred execution style by the CSA. Our houses were burned and land stolen by them, making Sherman saintly.

  • Whether all wars are class wars. Both Pro (prior to this debate) and Con agree that not all wars are class wars. Typically doesn’t mean all.

    • Many poor whites favored the US Civil War for the same reason that they opposed Civil Rights for as I previously asserted: to maintain their social status above blacks. Whites feared black reprisal. The issue over Civil Rights for blacks was the same reason that NYC Irish immigrants rioted during the battle of Gettysburg. Confederates call/called non-US Irish immigrants, Yankees, as though foreigners typified natives.

      • Whether bigotry over anti-US despotic slavery is a good thing or not.

      • Whether certain states should disclaim their past by displaying Confederate national (not battle) flags on equal footing with other past relevant domestic and foreign rulers: Indians, Spanish, English, French, Mexican, and/or others.

        • In such case the Confederate national flag would symbolize local historical roots. If other foreign/obsolete flags aren’t displayed on an equal footing, then the CSA’s national (not battle) flags, then it symbolizes racist rule and continued oppressive subjugation of blacks, Hispanics, white abolishionist, white’s who fought for Civil Rights and others.

        • Displaying the CSA national (not battle) flags where anti-racists have equal footing to display opposition to it. Then neo-CSA politically correct censorship wouldn’t exist.

The CSA was formed due to anti-Federalism in favor of state’s rights. Yes, for the rights to torture and deny other states their Constitutional rights. Read their Declaration of the Causes of Secession:

  • Opposition to other states’ sovereignty and claim:

    • It [the Union] refuses the admission of new slave States… and seeks to extinguish it by confining it within its present limits, denying the power of expansion.

    • It [The Union] has nullified the Fugitive Slave Law in almost every free State….

    • In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied…. The State of New Jersey… anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws…. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States….

    • Opposition to Freedom of speech and thought:

      • It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst.

      • they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States.

      • They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

      • Opposition to freedom of the press and speech:

        • It has enlisted its press, its pulpit and its schools against us, until the whole popular mind of the North is excited and inflamed with prejudice.

        • Opposition to freedom of assembly:

          • It has made combinations and formed associations to carry out its schemes of emancipation in the States and wherever else slavery exists.

The CSA declarations for secession further state their reasons – primarily over pro-racist slavery - for secession:

  • …our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government … the prominent reasons… thoroughly identified with… slavery…

  • Utter subjugation awaits us in the Union…. We must either submit to degradation, and to the loss of property worth four billion… or we must secede… to secure this as well as every other species of property….

  • …the [US] Government itself has been made destructive… by… the non-slaveholding States…. [whom] assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions [slavery]; and have denied the rights of property [slaves]….

  • In all the non-slave-holding States… people have formed… a great… party, now strong enough… to control… [their] affairs… based upon… hostility to… Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races….

  • [We] dissolved… connection with the…United States…[and] present to…confederates and the world the causes [of] separation.… against our non-slave-holding…States with reference to the subject of African slavery.



Nordenkalt444 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2


What drives this debate besides white guilt under the wolves" fleece of heritage? Rather than absolve social guilt by effective means, the pro-CSA only anesthetize their guilt through denial. These so-called Christians know how to absolve guilt through confession and repentance. Yet, they refuse and thus, perpetuate the guilt-denial cycle.

In the 3rd millennium, Pro has personally listened to local (in his formerly CSA state) "Christian" pastors and preachers preach from their pulpits advocacy for the CSA with comments quoted below:
""Slavery was only a minor issue related to the CSA." Read "The Address of the people of South Carolina, assembled in Convention, to the people of the Slaveholding States of the United States:"
"""We "[are] dissolving a union with non-slaveholding confederates, and seeking a confederation with slave-holding States. Experience has proved that slave-holding States cannot be safe " ruined by Anti-Slavery fanaticism. The " North.... United as a section in the late Presidential election, they have elected " one who has openly declared that all " States must be made Free States or Slave States".But if African Slavery ". the Constitution has never been any barrier whatever to their exercise of power ". there can be but one end to the submission by the South to the rule of a sectional Anti-Slavery Government at Washington; and that end, directly or indirectly, must be the emancipation of the slaves "the people of the non-slaveholding North are not and cannot be safe associates of the slaveholding South under a common Government."We prefer, however, our system " where the Caucasian cannot labor are brought into usefulness by the labor of the African"."
If there remains the remotest doubt, that slavery was the reason that the South seceded, then read the Louisiana Commissioner"s "Address of George Williamson to the Texas Secession Convention":
""Louisiana looks to the formation of a Southern confederacy to preserve the blessings of African slavery, and of the free institutions of the founders of the Federal Union, bequeathed to their posterity".African slavery that it may be said to be absolutely necessary to their existence, and is the keystone to the arch of their prosperity". The Mexican yoke [over Texas] could not have been more galling to "the army of heroes" of '36 [1836] than the Black republican rule [of the North] would be to the survivors and sons of that army at the present day". "A professedly friendly federal administration gave Texas no substantial protection against the Indians or abolitionists" The people of the slaveholding States are bound together by the same necessity and determination to preserve African slavery"."
""all slavery abolitionists were violent bellicose kooks like William Lloyd Garrison" He was a a true pacifist
"" Yankees were innately born morally inferior, while Southerners were victims of "Northern Aggression." This matter was addressed earlier.
""Negro slaves were privileged to help on the farm." Help as masters" involuntary prostitutes and concubines to make mulattos which represent 80% of US blacks. Was it the cold weather that lightened their skin from where they were imported: Jamaica, Haiti, etc.?
""Slaves were humanized because they received Constitutional 2/3 vote." The vote was by the white owner without regard for the slave"s right, or one man with one vote. Imagine being 2/3 of a person. Is this humanization? This 2/3 vote by masters gave more votes to the wealthy than the poor. This right was assumed when the CSA was formed.
""Divisive people have persecuted us " as was the case with 1st century Christians -by calling our love for our heritage "racist."" If those that are pro-UNION and in favor of the UNITED states are "divisive," then what does it make those who advocate for the division of our country and people?
" "The issue was over Federalism in violation of States" rights, not slavery." The CSA was birthed over states" rights for slavery as demonstrated earlier. The US also violated states" rights for the formerly CSA states during the Civil Rights movement (circa the War"s Centennial in the 1960s) through anti-racist moral legislation. "States" Rights" serve as a rallying point to attract those opposed to the Federal defanging of the terrorist KKK, by FBI infiltration? Does nostalgia for this War foster desire to return to the "good ol" boy network" days of the South when "Christian" churches (in our lifetime) were (though some remain) racially segregated and where black people knew their inferior place in society?
""The CSA was for formed by those seeking freedom." The "Northern Emancipation" states: "Tory Samuel Johnson twitted the Americans in 1775: "How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?"
""Confederate Vice President"s stated that the CSA was formed over differences of Constitutional principles." Principals of slavery as quoted earlier by the CSA"s VP in their declarations of their causes of succession.
""The CSA was formed over tariffs" The preservation of slavery yielded an aristocratically stagnant agrarian Southern economy, in stark contrast to chaotic "free States" with their vibrant and rapidly growing industrialism. Southern slaves replaced need for growth experience in the north with immigrant workers. Thus, the industrial North wanted tariff protectionism, while the South " remaining agrarian due to slavery " wanted free trade. The tariff issue was because of slavery as was the reason for an industrial North and an agrarian South. ""I could easily prove that almost all the differences which may be noticed between the characters of the Americans in the Southern and in the Northern states have originated in slavery"" -Mr. Alexis de Tocqueville (circa 1839)

""The CSA was formed over expansionism." Expansionism into newly acquired territories and states even if against the will of the states. The South didn"t want states" rights when it related to the right to be free of slavery. The CSA"s declarations read, "[The Union] "has announced that the South[ern slavery] shall be excluded from " [new] territory, " and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States". as sinful the institution of slavery"."
""Culturalism was a main reason for the CSA." The"Declaration of Causes of Seceding States" ""maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery " established "ties between "slave-holding States of the confederacy... based upon "hostility by the Union to " African slavery."
""The issue of slavery wasn"t a cause for divisionism between the North and the South till Lincoln." Yet the CSA"s declarations reads: "For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery." The protestant churches divided over slavery in the 1830s.
" "Slavery was the way of Christianizing the heathen." Why didn"t the CSA send missionaries rather than buying slaves? Perhaps undereducated illiterates like former slave Mr. Charlie Smith may have a broader (less distorted) perspective in his personal account as he succinctly conveys:

1. Public Broadcasting System. "Judgment Day" Africans in America, People & Events William Lloyd Garrison. Retrieved June 5, 2005(

2. "Good ol' boy network" Absolute Astronomy Reference [Categories: American culture, Politics of the U.S.] Retrieved July 15, 2005(
3. De Tocqueville, Alexis. 1839. Democracy in American. Vol I, Chapter 13; "The Present and Probable Future Condition of the Three Races that Inhabit the Territory of the United States" From the Henry Reeve Translation, revised and corrected, Retrieved July 16,


Nordenkalt444 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3


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Debate Round No. 4


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Debate Round No. 5
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