The Instigator
SuperiorArsenal
Pro (for)
Winning
20 Points
The Contender
TUF
Con (against)
Losing
1 Points

The Covenant from Halo could defeat the COG, Locusts, and Lambent from Gears of War

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
SuperiorArsenal
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/27/2012 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 8,983 times Debate No: 23228
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (57)
Votes (4)

 

SuperiorArsenal

Pro

I believe that the Covenant, from Halo, could defeat the COG, Locusts, and Lambent, from Gears of War, all at the same time.

All four factions are at their prime and all three Gears of War factions are working in cohesion.

Round One will be acceptance and introduction, and if you want, you may begin the debate.
TUF

Con

Interested in hearing your case for this.

I will provide my own case and a rebuttal in round 2.

Debate Round No. 1
SuperiorArsenal

Pro

Thank you for accepting my challenge. I look forward to the debate.

Point 1.

The Covenant are a conglomerate of alien species bound by a strict religious belief in the "Great Journey." Each race has their own attributes that give them an edge over the forces from Gears of War. Grunts, the lowest of the hierarchy, reproduce at a high rate. They supply a decent amount of cannon fodder, while still retaining the ability to use most Covenant weapons effectively. It should also be noted, while standing at roughly 5', they are typically stronger than average humans, and when not encumbered by their heavy suits, are quite agile. Jackals are a step above Grunts. Standing above 6' tall, these avian-like creatures have razor-sharp senses, far superior than regular humans. This gives them an uncanny aptitude for recon and marksmanship, making them ideal snipers. Additionally, they can serve as close-range support, wielding energy shield gauntlets that can withstand a squad of Marines' combined fire for brief periods. A sub-species of Jackal are Skirmishers, which are much faster and much ore agile, along with being more durable. Drones are also an additional species. They mainly serve as basic engineers, but can be used for combat in large swarms. They have the ability of flight, which allows them to attack their enemies en masse from above. Hunters are massive behemoths weighing in at over 10 tons. A hunter is actually a colony of Lekgolo worms that have taken form in armor. Their armor is extremely dense, resistant to all but the most severe attacks. They carry an arm shield that weighs 2 tons on its own, which the Hunter can swing at a surprisingly fast speed without any strain. On their other "arm" they have a mounted fuel rod gun, which fires large amounts of a highly radioactive and incendiary gel. Brutes are large 8'-10' tall ape-like monsters that have immense strength and speed. Depending on their rank, they can also wear power armor that has energy shielding of considerable strength. They also wield crude (by Covenant standards) but brutal weapons. Elites are the highest in military ranking. Each is trained for combat from the time they are born. All Elites are fast, very strong, and sport personal energy shields that have varying strength dependant on their rank. They are also known for their tactical cunning, as well as blind rage fueled by their obsession with honor. They can also use Active Camouflage, which effectively turns them invisible. I will not discuss the Prophet race, as they do not take on combat roles. Engineers play mostly an (you guessed it) engineer role. They have the strange ability to be able to disassemble, interface, and reassemble technology in very, very short periods of time. Though when in combat, they provide their allies with an over shield that recharges very quickly, as well as being strapped with bombs themselves, to avoid being captured.

Point 2.

Covenant technology is far superior than any of the Gears of War factions'. The Covenant put a heavy use on plasma, particle beams, and other DEWs (Direct Energy Weapons). The forces of Sera have never encountered such main-lined use of these weapons, and therefore lack the appropriate defenses. Even the weakest plasma weapons give their targets severe burns from near-misses. Low-powered ones like the Plasma Pistol and Plasma Rifle have been shown to even blow limbs off of bodies. Another important aspect is energy shielding. This is also fairly common, and is a major advantage. It allows soldiers to take hits without suffering any damage themselves, drastically improving their durability.

As the debate moves further, on top of supplying rebuttals, I will add more points and strategies.
TUF

Con

*****FRAMEWORK*****

First I will refute my opponents points, before going on to my own case.

A forfeit should result in the loss of this debate.

Both debaters shall remind kind and courteous to one another.


*****OPPONENTS CASE*****

A1: COVENANT BACKGROUND

"The Covenant are a conglomerate of alien species bound by a strict religious belief in the "Great Journey." Each race has their own attributes that give them an edge over the forces from Gears of War. Grunts, the lowest of the hierarchy, reproduce at a high rate. They supply a decent amount of cannon fodder, while still retaining the ability to use most Covenant weapons effectively. It should also be noted, while standing at roughly 5', they are typically stronger than average humans, and when not encumbered by their heavy suits, are quite agile. Jackals are a step above Grunts. Standing above 6' tall, these avian-like creatures have razor-sharp senses, far superior than regular humans. This gives them an uncanny aptitude for recon and marksmanship, making them ideal snipers. Additionally, they can serve as close-range support, wielding energy shield gauntlets that can withstand a squad of Marines' combined fire for brief periods. A sub-species of Jackal are Skirmishers, which are much faster and much ore agile, along with being more durable. Drones are also an additional species. They mainly serve as basic engineers, but can be used for combat in large swarms. They have the ability of flight, which allows them to attack their enemies en masse from above. Hunters are massive behemoths weighing in at over 10 tons. A hunter is actually a colony of Lekgolo worms that have taken form in armor. Their armor is extremely dense, resistant to all but the most severe attacks. They carry an arm shield that weighs 2 tons on its own, which the Hunter can swing at a surprisingly fast speed without any strain. On their other "arm" they have a mounted fuel rod gun, which fires large amounts of a highly radioactive and incendiary gel. Brutes are large 8'-10' tall ape-like monsters that have immense strength and speed. Depending on their rank, they can also wear power armor that has energy shielding of considerable strength. They also wield crude (by Covenant standards) but brutal weapons. Elites are the highest in military ranking. Each is trained for combat from the time they are born. All Elites are fast, very strong, and sport personal energy shields that have varying strength dependant on their rank. They are also known for their tactical cunning, as well as blind rage fueled by their obsession with honor. They can also use Active Camouflage, which effectively turns them invisible. I will not discuss the Prophet race, as they do not take on combat roles. Engineers play mostly an (you guessed it) engineer role. They have the strange ability to be able to disassemble, interface, and reassemble technology in very, very short periods of time. Though when in combat, they provide their allies with an over shield that recharges very quickly, as well as being strapped with bombs themselves, to avoid being captured."

It seems my opponent has taken the time for his first argument, to explain detail on the covenant. Given that there is nothing to really argue here, I will do the same and provide information for my team.

THE COG

http://gearsofwar.wikia.com...

The COG Represents a group of men and a few woman whose goal is to singlehandledly take on the locusts.
Game play usually represents four main COG units who take on hordes upon hordes of enemies using state of the art weapons, attached with chain saws on them.

THE LOCUSTS

DRONES
Drone classes:

  • Cyclops
  • Grenadier
  • Grenadier Elite
  • Flame Grenadier
  • Sniper
  • Spotter
  • Gunner
  • Bolter
  • Beast Rider
  • Grappler
  • Miner
  • Hunter
  • Hunter Elite
THERONS

BOOMERS

KANTUS

BERSERKERS

BRUMAKS

WRETCH's

CORPSERS

REAVERS

HYRDA

SEEDERS

TORTURE BARGE'S

BLOODMOUNT'S

TICKERS
These are all the different types of locusts that are introduced in the Game series.

Descriptions, and their abilities, can be found on this link:
http://gearsofwar.wikia.com...

THE LAMBENT

STALKS

DRUDGE

LAMBENT WRETCH

LAMBENT DRONE

LAMBENT BUMAK

LAMBENT BERSERKER

LAMBENT LEVITHIAN

LAMABENT ANIMALS

FORMERS

GUNKERS

Full descriptions in link:
http://gearsofwar.wikia.com...


A2: SUPERIOR TECHNOLOGY

"Covenant technology is far superior than any of the Gears of War factions'. The Covenant put a heavy use on plasma, particle beams, and other DEWs (Direct Energy Weapons). The forces of Sera have never encountered such main-lined use of these weapons, and therefore lack the appropriate defenses. Even the weakest plasma weapons give their targets severe burns from near-misses. Low-powered ones like the Plasma Pistol and Plasma Rifle have been shown to even blow limbs off of bodies. Another important aspect is energy shielding. This is also fairly common, and is a major advantage. It allows soldiers to take hits without suffering any damage themselves, drastically improving their durability."

I feel this argument is rather Un significant. So if anyone here reading this has played the game (halo) and finished the series, you would know that the covenant (mostly) were defeated. They were defeated vastly by the technology that was currently known to humans, which were regular automated weapons. Now when we take the gears of war weapon arsenal into account, we see a lot higher technology employed by the humans. Chainsaw guns, Hammer of Dawn (can bring a powerful crashing into and destroying most anything). Given that in this fight, I get locusts on my side, we can take into account brumak weapons, barges, all the massive artillery that is provided by the fighters. If covenant technology is so easily defeated by normal human weapons, what makes you think that they will stand a chance against the far superior technological aspects of the COG and the locusts?!

****MY CASE ****

C1: NUMBERS

The odds definitely won't be in the Covenants favor in this fight.

The covenant attack fleet that is largely seen in the halo series is about 15 Miles long. Yes it is big. A s hip that size could hold roughly3-4 hundred thousands troops.

http://www.bungie.net...


Let's look towards the COG/Locusts.

The remainder of the COG introduced in the series is roughly about 600,000 troops strong.
http://gearsofwar.wikia.com...

Now this is a scarce and dying human race as it is. Let's implement the LOCUSTS and the Lambent, which has take over the majority of the earth in this game.

The locusts make up literally over 3 million attacking forces against the cog.

http://gearsofwar.wikia.com...

Now that they are both added together, how can we presume that a simple attack fleet could take on both armies in their entirety?

C2: The COG are Beasts.

This is implemented in the story line. Four COG members often will show down hundreds upon thousands of Locusts at a time, without even seeming to break a sweat. The main sign of covenant luck we in the halo saga, is the arbiter doing pretty well against the heretics, IE his own brethren.

Grunts, Elites, Hunters, they all fall so easily as evidenced through the game. The main four COG character however being so adept in their training processes have simply no problem eliminating their foes. Who is to say that they would not do the same against the covenant? The COG are almost invincible, while the covenant has a wide span of weaknesses, that are expanded in the Halo series.

It is Evident that The Cog, and the Locusts could easily take the covenant.

****CONCLUSION****

I have successfully refuted all of my opponents points, as well as provided my own case and reasoning as to why The covenant would lose in a battle against these foes.

I have provided plenty of sources and information as evidence of this.

I look forward to my opponents rebuttals, and wish him luck in this debate!
Debate Round No. 2
SuperiorArsenal

Pro

“A forfeit should result in the loss of this debate.


Both debaters shall remind kind and courteous to one another.”

==

I agree to this. One additional thing, we are using all portions of canon for Halo and Gears of War. This includes games, books, and other related media that has received acknowledgement of canon by the developers.

==

“Game play usually represents”

==

Gameplay and Game Mechanics are not to be considered canon. These are tools used by developers to create balanced and enjoyable games. Otherwise, things like surviving multiple 7.62x51mm FMJ NATO rounds to the head, like in the Halo games, would be considered true.

==

Now to respond to Con’s rebuttels

==

“I feel this argument is rather Un significant. So if anyone here reading this has played the game (halo) and finished the series, you would know that the covenant (mostly) were defeated. They were defeated vastly by the technology that was currently known to humans, which were regular automated weapons.”

==

This is an extremely gross misunderstanding. The events of Halo 2 and Halo 3 take place when humanity is on the doorstep of extinction. The UNSC had controlled 800 planets at the beginning of the war, and they are now down to Earth and a few Inner Colonies. If it were not for the Great Schism (The Elites breaking from the Covenant and joining the Humans), Earth would have fallen. Actually, if The Arbiter (Thel Vadam) had not argued otherwise, the Elites on their own would have destroyed the humans. The UNSC only previaled because the main military power of the Covenant broke off. Otherwise, Earth would have been conquered just like the hundreds of planets before it.

Also, Con does not realize that Earth was protected by 300 Orbital Defense Platforms. These platforms each carry one SMAC (Super Magnetic Accelerator Cannon), which fires a 3,000 ton projectile at 0.04c (4.0% of the speed of light) at a rate of 1 round every 5 seconds. No weapon on Earth today, not even the mighty Tsar Bomba, comes close to rivaling the energy of one of these platforms. On top of that, no weapon found on Sera rivals this either, yet Con expects that the forces of Sera will defeat an empire that defeated all 300 platforms with relative ease. Earth’s population was also 23 billion. The Covenant managed to reduce this to 200 million in the course of a few days. That is effectively reducing a 23 billion population by 99%.

==

“Now when we take the gears of war weapon arsenal into account, we see a lot higher technology employed by the humans. Chainsaw guns, Hammer of Dawn (can bring a powerful crashing into and destroying most anything).”

==

Ahh, the infamous Chainsaw guns.
Realistically, chainsaws are not very effective weapons of war. And again, you
have to realize that the Covenant employs energy shielding, which a chainsaw
would have no effect on short of delivering the Kinetic Energy from each swing.
You can’t cut an energy shield. Con also needs to realize that the Covenant can
simply destroy all Hammer of Dawn Satallites before they even land, without the
forces of Sera being able to stop them. After all, the Covenant is a space-faring empire.

==

“If
covenant technology is so easily defeated by normal human weapons, what makes
you think that they will stand a chance against the far superior technological
aspects of the COG and the locusts?!”

==

The fact of the matter is that the Covenant isn’t defeated easily by UNSC weaponry,
which is by no means “normal human weapons”

For example:

http://www.halopedian.com...

http://www.halopedian.com...

http://www.halopedian.com...

I could post more with no problem, but I feel as though that I have mae my point.
==
"The covenant attack fleet that is largely seen in the halo series is about 15 Miles long. Yes it is big. A s hip that size could hold roughly3-4 hundred thousands troops."
==
Not to seem rude, but that is a fairly pathetic source. Also, you are confusing and individual ship with a fleet. That was ONE Covenant ship (The Long Night of Solace, to be exact, which is 27km long). Reach was attacked with a fleet containing over 400 ships. Also, what is to stop the Covenant from sending more? They have entire planets devoted to building ships, and thousands of ships reside around High Charity.
==
"population stuff"
==
Earth's population was 23 billion. The Covenant reduced this to a mere 200 million over the course of a few days. Also note that Humanity in Halo was fighting for survival, and the UNSC (as evident by all of the recruitment stands in Halo 3:ODST) was heavily recruiting, 3% is a low estimate for the amount of population that serves the military. This is 690 million armed forces fighting for Earth. The population of Sera is nothing but a mere drop in the water to the Covenant.
==
"Four COG members often will show down hundreds upon thousands of Locusts at a time, without even seeming to break a sweat."
==
Gross over-exaggeration. If this were true, the COG forces would not be in the losing position that they had been in. I will need actual proof of such a claim before it can even be considered.
==
"Who is to say that they would not do the same against the covenant? The COG are almost invincible, while the covenant has a wide span of weaknesses, that are expanded in the Halo series."
==
Because the Covenant have energy shielding and superior weapons. Energy shielding allows them to take blows that would be fatal while suffering no damage to themselves. Their weapons give severe burns from near misses, and even the weak ones can blow off limbs. Combine this with Active Camouflage, superior numbers, superior tactical control, and unassailable supply lines (space), you get an enemy you cannot defeat.
==

Strategy #1: Mass Invasion


The Covenant have multiple hundred planets under control. These planets are untouchable to the forces of Sera. They also provide a near unlimited supply of weapons, vehicles, troops, and ships. Not only this, but the existing population of the Covenant most likely far exceeds that of the forces on Sera (Sanghelios, the Elite homeworld, has 8 billion alone, most of which are in the Covenant military, as per the Elite way of life). Through the use of space-faring ships, they can literally travel anywhere on Sera without danger and assault them from any direction. Not to mention energy weapons and shielding that undoubtedly gives the Covenant the advantage in ground warfare. The forces of Sera literally cannot take the offensive against the Covenant, while the Covenant can throw troops and supplies at the planet with almost no limit.
==
Sources of interest:
http://www.halopedian.com...
http://www.halopedian.com...
http://www.halopedian.com...
http://www.halopedian.com...
http://www.halopedian.com...

Due to lack of characters remaining here, I will be posting quotes from the Halo Novels in the comments.



TUF

Con


I will respond to my opponents arguments before referring to my own.

*****REBUTTALS*****


R1:Covenant Technology


"Actually, if The Arbiter (Thel Vadam) had not argued otherwise, the Elites on their own would have destroyed the humans. The UNSC only prevailed because the main military power of the Covenant broke off."

You see, but this is a flaw in and of itself. Troop moral is probably the biggest and best factor when preparing for a full fledged war. If you want your troops to perform at their peak, then they must have faith in what they are doing, and know and believe in the fight and cause they are fighting for. The Marines of the UNSC have no problem with this. However the prophets, the leaders of the Covenant Army have lied to their people. The Elites see this, and no longer trust in the faction in which they are fighting for. But even worse than that, they don't just leave the cause, they completely work towards destroying it! How could the Covenant ever win a war with the humans if their own troops don't support what it is they are fighting for!?



"Also, Con does not realize that Earth was protected by 300 Orbital Defense Platforms."

I think the instigator of this debate, does not know the true power of the humans that faced against it. Before the incident on reach, the Covenant Civil war was lost by the humans. Please see below.

"The conflict was closely connected with, and the cause of, the Covenant Civil War, both of which resulted in the final defeat of the Covenant Loyalists and Flood. The official cessation of hostilities occurred on March 3, 2553. The war was incredibly costly to both sides, with over twenty-three billion humans and billions of Covenant killed during the hostilities and further heavy casualties during the Flood plague. The war ultimately lasted for a total of twenty-eight years."

You can read on to find the cause of the war being completely irrelevant to the covenant, and contradictory of their beliefs on the great Journey. Basically the prophets of regret jumped into a war, destroying billions of their own, so they could remain with the appearance of power, and control. In an attempt to Continue their power, they contradict everything they know and believe. If all their troops were privy to this information, other than just the arbiters, what point would any of the covenant now have to fight?

"The Prophets found out that the Forerunner objects that the Luminary revealed on Harvest were actually Humans (which the Prophets interpreted as meaning that the Humans were descendants of the Forerunner, or possibly surviving Forerunner). Initially, the Covenant interpreted the glyph from the luminary as "Reclamation". Startlingly, the Forerunner AI 05-032 Mendicant Bias revealed that the interpretation was wrong: the glyph meant "Reclaimer". The Prophets Regret and Truth realized that if the Humans were actually Forerunners, then it was possible to be left behind when the Great Journey occurs. This stood in contradiction to the Covenant religion, which held that no one would be left behind in the Great Journey. The Hierarchs, recognizing that this truth would destroy the Covenant, declared war on Humanity, hoping the truth would perish with their newly-declared foe."

http://halo.wikia.com...


"Realistically, chainsaws are not very effective weapons of war"

I would beg to differ. Close combat occurs in game play and in the story line all the time. We constantly see Use of close combat efficiently used with the Elite's Energy Sword. Now When we compare this sword with a chainsaw gun, we can see the difference in power. Not only can the chain saw rip through the armor of the Elite, but it can also be fired. The gun portion allows the wielder to be cautious at a distance if he feels the combat fight with the saw vs sword is going poorly, and he can instantly finish off his opponent with a few bullets. The Elite cannot do this with his energy sword.

" And again, you have to realize that the Covenant employs energy shielding, which a chainsaw
would have no effect on short of delivering the Kinetic Energy from each swing."

This is not true. The energy shields that are deployed by the Covenant are generically bubble shields, or deployable barrier shields. The barrier shields can be destroyed with a few easy bullets. The bubble shield actually doesn't provide any assistance at all against close ranged combat. While they deflect bullets, Humans and Covenant alike can easily enter into them. Drones/engineers can be disabled with a few quick bullets as well, thus pretty much wiping out all "Shield Factions" you feel the covenant have in their arsenal. All are extremely fallible, and only provide more weaknesses for the covenant.

"Con also needs to realize that the Covenant can simply destroy all Hammer of Dawn Satellites before they even."

Finding and locating these satellites isn't as easy as you are presuming it is. This would require the covenant to search the galaxy for a simple piece of equipment. This would take years to accomplish. Let's keep in mind the power these weapons hold. Covenant Drop ships, Freight carriers, wraiths, ghost, anything. The beam of the hammer of dawn is extremely powerful and can completely destroy most of the covenant's air force.

"The fact of the matter is that the Covenant isn’t defeated easily by UNSC weaponry,
which is by no means “normal human weapons” "

They are normal to the human forces in the halo saga so I fail to understand your point. Also those weapons you provided in the links were largely contributing to huge damage profile ratio's against covenant forces.

The covenant could easily be defeated by the humans, though the victory is widely attributed to the Spartans, master Chief, etc.
http://www.bungie.net...

"Reach was attacked with a fleet containing over 400 ships. Also, what is to stop the Covenant from sending more? They have entire planets devoted to building ships, and thousands of ships reside around High Charity."

Thousands of ships around high charity eh? You mean the covenants holy City that is destroyed?
http://halo.wikia.com...
http://www.fanfiction.net...

Reach was attacked un-expected, and was a direct result to the covenants Defeat in the civil war. When Spartans and ODST's were dropped on the planet, most of the damage had already been done. While reach was a stronghold, most of the heavy military forces were deployed elsewhere, and having arrived sooner, definitely would have been able to reject the attack made on the Planet.

"This is 690 million armed forces fighting for Earth. The population of Sera is nothing but a mere drop in the water to the Covenant"

Yet the covenant was still defeated. Wow, doesn't take a lot to destroy them does it? Even without the help of the arbiters, the war would have been won. Master chief was able to destroy the for runners rings mostly by himself.
http://en.wikipedia.org...(Halo)

**** MY CASE ****

NUMBERS


"If this were true, the COG forces would not be in the losing position that they had been in. I will need actual proof of such a claim before it can even be considered."

Need proof? Ever play the game? Please see the video provided above. This is after combating and destroying hundreds of thousands of locusts with just the four of them. You can fast forward the video to about 4 minutes in

"Combine this with Active Camouflage, superior numbers, superior tactical control, and unassailable supply lines (space), you get an enemy you cannot defeat."

The active Camo is a joke, anyone can see the illusion a mile away. Tactical control is clearly in the COG's hand with technology (see video). Hammer of dawn destroys supply lines rendering them useless.

Please view the rest of this debate in the link below.

http://www.debate.org...
Debate Round No. 3
SuperiorArsenal

Pro

"You see, but this is a flaw in and of itself. Troop moral is probably the biggest and best factor when preparing for a full fledged war. If you want your troops to perform at their peak, then they must have faith in what they are doing, and know and believe in the fight and cause they are fighting for. The Marines of the UNSC have no problem with this. However the prophets, the leaders of the Covenant Army have lied to their people. The Elites see this, and no longer trust in the faction in which they are fighting for. But even worse than that, they don't just leave the cause, they completely work towards destroying it! How could the Covenant ever win a war with the humans if their own troops don't support what it is they are fighting for!?"
==

I quote myself here:
"All four factions are at their prime"
i.e. before the Great Shism (which is what you are reffering to)
==

"I think the instigator of this debate, does not know the true power of the humans that faced against it. Before the incident on reach, the Covenant Civil war was lost by the humans. Please see below."
==

I treuly am confused by the "order" of events you see happening in the Halo universe. Maybe I should clarify it for you.
1. The Covenant found Harvest, and after the first Contact went wrong, and the soon-to-be Prophets discovered who the Humans really were, they started a war (Note that the Prophets did not share the true information, and rallied ENTIRE empire to kill the Humans in which they labled Heretics. The war with the humans actually brought them out of a "dark age" that they had currently been in)
2. 27-28 years of war between the Covenant and the Humans, spanning over hundreds of planets
3. At the very last month of the war, the Prophets decided to move the Brutes into the dominant role, which angered the Elites. Soon the Brutes started a genocidal campaign against the Elites, cuasing the Covenant Civil War (The Great Shcism). This was amplified by the Elites soon discovering the Prophets had lied all along. These elites (The Covenant Seperatists) joined forces with the Humans.

I am also ashamed at Con after reviewing his own source for the information. Not only was he taking things out of context and mix-matching events in the Halo Timeline, he is, seemingly with intention, leaving information out.

"The war was instigated by the Covenant, whose Prophets discovered that humans were directly related to the Forerunners. In order to keep the Covenant intact, war was declared against humanity. Over the next few decades, the Covenant, with superior firepower, tactics, and technology, overpowered humanity on hundreds of worlds, including heavily defended strongholds such as Reach. The Humans would only win scattered and costly victories, most of which the Spartans contributed to immensely"

I HIGHLY advise that Con (and the viewers of this debate) go through the Halo Timeline:
http://www.halopedian.com...
==

"Not only can the chain saw rip through the armor of the Elite"
==

Personal. Energy. Shielding. You can't cut through energy shielding. This makes the entire function of a chainsaw irrelevent in a H2H fight against a Brute or Elite. Energy shields are taken down by amounts of energy applied to them, not cutting. As evident in all aspects of Halo Canon, Elite shielding can withstand 1 or 2 14.5x114mm APFSD rounds, each of which carry 40 kilojoules of kinetic energy. Granted someone could swing a gun+chainsaw at 13 meters per second (which is absurdly high), and that weapon weighed 20kg (again, absurdly high), that is only 1.69 kilojoules per swing. It would take 24 full force swings from the Chainsaw gun to take out an Elite's shield at minimum. Amazing what a little knowledge in the field of physics can do......

Conversely, I have a quote showing that an energy sword can "cut" (It doesn't really cut, but rather uses immensly hot plasma contained in a magnetic field to melt/burn through most anything on contact with the field. Also, hilariously enough, means that an Elite simply parrying a chainsaw strike will melt the gun, leaving the attacker weaponless) through three fully-shielded Elites at once:

Halo: Ghosts of Onyx Pg 360
She followed with an elbow to the Elite's face--twisted the sword free and slashed, cutting it in half, as well as the two Elites on either side.

If you were wondering who had the gall to fight 3 Elites in H2H, that would be Kelly-087, the fastest of the SPARTAN-IIs. SPARTAN-IIs, like John-117 (Master Chief), can run at speeds of 45mph, lift 6 tons, jump 3.5 meters into the air, react in 0.004 seconds (About 50x faster than a regular human), survive insane wounds (collapsed lung, broken ribs, insanely low blood pressure, dislocated joints, torn muscles, and 3rd degree burns all at the same time) while still maintaining maximum combat efficiency, and think on the level of a 150 IQ or higher. They weigh 500kg in armor, armor that has shields that withstand roughly 5 megajoules of energy. It also just-so-happens that SPARTAN-IIs are the leading causes of UNSC victories. Too bad only 30 were ever created, and roughly 20 of which died in the war. Another little fact, they each have about 30 years of combat experience and were trained day-in day-out from the age of 6. Each of them have mastered the craft of warfare 33 times over (http://www.artmetal.com...) Just thought I'd explain a little about the foe that could exceed an Elite's martial skill.

Effects of the Energy Sword:
The Type-1 Energy Weapon is an extremely powerful and effective melee weapon in close-quarters combat. A single strike can penetrate through the energy shield systems and into the armor and flesh of a SPARTAN or a Sangheili. This is due to the design of the weapon, which utilizes ionized gas rather than traditional shaped, solid matter - because the energy sword lacks any solid material in which to hold, or impale anything, the sword does not cut or carve in the traditional sense, but rather boils anything it comes into contact with.[5] This allows the weapon to pass through any type of material, including the toughest metal, with ease.[17][18]

Injuries to living creatures by the Type-1 Energy Weapon can range from bad to gruesome. Stabs wounds by the Type-1 Energy Weapon are, in most cases, fatal — as the blade passes through the body, the innards of the body are burned and cauterized by the extreme temperatures produced by the blades.[19] Body fluids in the area of the stab wound are flash vaporized upon contact — organs within the area of the stab wounds can suffer life threatening damage dependent upon the type of organ struck, effects of fluids trapped in organs or arteries in addition to the expansion of heat would cause ruptures or small explosions causing additional damage to the victim. Survival is minimal at best and in the case of non-vital organs being stabbed with the energy sword, proper medical treatment must be applied as soon as possible to ensure long-term survival. Because of the sword's sheer destructive power, dismemberment is another common form of fatality to victims, ranging from decapitation[20] to bodies being sliced in half.[17][21] Loss of limbs is a common injury
http://www.halopedian.com...

==

I will now continue the debate on the following thread, due to lack of characters. http://www.debate.org...
TUF

Con

*****FRAMEWORK*****
First I will address the reason that I feel I have won this debate, and then I will hit both my opponents arguments, and rebuttals on mine.


*****VOTERS*****

CONDUCT:
I feel I have displayed superior conduct in this debate.

1. My opponent has addressed this debate with an approach of "Attempt to overload the audience with a buttload of information".
This is both annoying, and hard to follow. In my opponent's last continuation, he literally just overloaded his ENTIRE response with irrelevant quotes from the books. After reading through each one, we realize that absolutely none of them bear any significance to the debate at hand. Not only this but my opponent continues to do this several times throughout the debate, for example, by posting the quote from the energy sword, he basically wastes over 1000 characters pasting useless info.

SOURCES:

2. MY opponent attempts to overload the audience with the same sources over and over again, to give the appearance of a lot of sources. The information he posts from within these sources all contain semantics. Loopholes, trying to create arguments that are impossible for the opponent. For example, several time throughout this debate, my Opponent states several time and posts sources for the Covenant glassing planets. This is an attempt to put forth an argument that cannot be refuted. But my opponent doesn't source to why the covenant do not do this to every single other planet, they attempt to destroy. Why even deploy ground troops in the first place, if glassing is so easy? It obviously is not. This counts against both his conduct and his sources within the debate.
Also Source points should go to the player who provides the best actual evidence for each argument. Posting random pieces of information that are irrelevant, is just an attempt to gloat and show off, where as they hold no actually pertinence to the debate.

CONVINCING ARGUMENTS:

3. You will vote for me here too, as I have stayed with the framework of this debate. I have been kind and courteous to my opponent, while offering up plenty of rebuttals to his arguments, in a structured, organized manner. I have not attempted to use semantics, and have offered Valid Rebuttals to each of my opponent's arguments. This actually only started out as one argument, but my opponent has introduced several new arguments through the debate in later rounds. If this is acceptable, the I am permitted to do so as well.

SPELLING AND GRAMMAR:

4. This one is pretty obvious given my opponents lack of using the spell check button and reviewing arguments before pressing submit. Please read through both arguments, you will notice my S/G is almost flawless.

****MY OPPONENT'S CASE****


SUPERIOR TECHNOLOGY


"I treuly am confused by the "order" of events you see happening in the Halo universe. Maybe I should clarify it for you.
1. The Covenant found Harvest, and after the first Contact went wrong, and the soon-to-be Prophets discovered who the Humans really were, they started a war (Note that the Prophets did not share the true information, and rallied ENTIRE empire to kill the Humans in which they labled Heretics. The war with the humans actually brought them out of a "dark age" that they had currently been in)
2. 27-28 years of war between the Covenant and the Humans, spanning over hundreds of planets
3. At the very last month of the war, the Prophets decided to move the Brutes into the dominant role, which angered the Elites. Soon the Brutes started a genocidal campaign against the Elites, cuasing the Covenant Civil War (The Great Shcism). This was amplified by the Elites soon discovering the Prophets had lied all along. These elites (The Covenant Seperatists) joined forces with the Humans."

I already know and understand this. This, dear audience, is another official view of my opponent filling up his arguments space with useless information. Rather than actually attempting to refute my argument on the humans defeat of high Charity. My opponent is attempting to confuse and manipulate the audience rather than actually addressing my contention. Thus Please consider this a dropped argument, and extend it through the debate.


"I am also ashamed at Con after reviewing his own source for the information. Not only was he taking things out of context and mix-matching events in the Halo Timeline, he is, seemingly with intention, leaving information out.

"The war was instigated by the Covenant, whose Prophets discovered that humans were directly related to the Forerunners. In order to keep the Covenant intact, war was declared against humanity. Over the next few decades, the Covenant, with superior firepower, tactics, and technology, overpowered humanity on hundreds of worlds, including heavily defended strongholds such as Reach. The Humans would only win scattered and costly victories, most of which the Spartans contributed to immensely""

Pro's arguments here completely lacks any sense. He is stating something that I as the con have already stated. But this in no way addresses the fact that the Covenant had the advantage in the beginning of the war. Con must prove that the Covenant could have won the war. Is only response is that the elites broke off from the war. Again, you can cross reference my point about covenant lies, defeating troop moral. What is there to say that when fighting against the GOW factions, the Covenant won't run into the same problems with their troops? The covenant being in their prime has nothing to do with it.


"Personal. Energy. Shielding. You can't cut through energy shielding. This makes the entire function of a chainsaw irrelevant in a H2H fight against a Brute or Elite."

Aha, but you fail to realize that not all covenant have Personal Energy shielding. Elites do, but it is fallible. Also given that the Elite's are likely going to side with the GOW factions after hearing of the betrayals of the prophets, this is only going to benefit the GOW factions.

ENERGY SWORD DUAL WIELDING

"No need to worry Con!

http://www.halopedian.com......
Allowing them to not only hold weapons and still have mêlée, but they have dual blades. These blades also will have the same effects as the Energy Sword, as they only differ in size."

During game play you see no such evidence as to covenant having the ability to duel wield. Thus this source is completely fallible. Also the source provided says absolutely nothing about wielding guns, along with it.


****MY CASE****

PROPHETS BETRAYAL

This point is completely dropped throughout the debate, please extend it.

COG's SUPERIOR STRENGTH

My opponent has not addressed the fact that the COG with four members, can effectively take down hoards of enemies between four single humans, against a bunch of scared grunts, mindless brutes, and weak jackals.

We are not even comparing this with all of the other factions.

BRUMAKS

Ginormous Locusts that can destroy the equivalent of three scarabs if they so wished, by themselves.


REAVERS

Easily will take down All aircraft as is evidenced by the video games.

BERSERKERS

Can easily rush into a group of elites, brutes, grunts, and Jackals, demolishing them no problem. In fact just one of these Berserkers could take down squads of these enemy forces.

THERONS

The torque bows High volume explosiveness completely destroys all energy shields. The covenant will not stand a chance against these.

BOOMERS

Can quickly eliminate the larger forces, such as hunters, and provide the heavy artillery.

CORPSERS

Ginormous spiders that can trampled and devour the foes in it's way.

There are many more.


Given my opponent cannot and has not proven that any of the covenant can destroy these enemies, we have no reason to believe the covenant to be successful.

****CONCLUSION****

Going over and responding to each link seems meaningless, as the bulk of it is addressed in my rebuttal, and most of it is useless garbage anyway. I have provided votes above. Based on all of the information I have provided I strongly urge a CON vote.
Thankyou!
Debate Round No. 4
57 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by TUF 2 years ago
TUF
I did horrible in this debate, yes. My opponent had superior knowledge on the topics background and history.
Posted by mkk255 2 years ago
mkk255
Lol Con you are so bad. I signed up just to commend Arsenal. Great, great read.
Posted by OberHerr 5 years ago
OberHerr
Ok, SA, we understand. :)

But yeah, the biggest issue I think the Locusts would have against the Covies are: Technology and Number. Both of which, sadly for the Locusts, are often the biggest deciding factors in a war.
Posted by SuperiorArsenal 5 years ago
SuperiorArsenal
"I'm just curious how the Covies could hope to go up against the Horde if, in their own game series, they are constantly destroyed by Flood foot soldiers."
-
^ is the question.

The Covenant can hope to go against the Horde, even though they are "constantly destroyed" by Flood foot soldiers, because Flood foot soldiers surpass the combat proficiency of the Horde by leaps and bounds.
I'm not sure how more to answer that. Do you want specific reasons that the Flood surpass the Horde? Numbers, agility, weapons, strength, durability, and their ability to infect, just to name a few.
Do you want reasons that the Covenant surpass the Horde? Numbers, weapons, shields, vehicles, technology, space, etc. Yes, the Horde may have more powerful units on a 1v1 level, but when the Covenant has more of its absolute best soldiers than the Horde has in their entire military, things shape out to be 1,000+v1.
Grunts, most Jackals, and Drones would all be crushed (sometimes literally) by Horde forces in 1v1, 10v1, even 100v1. But forces like Jackal snipers, Hunters, Brutes, and Elites are all extremely capable. Brutes and Elites especially, as they are, pound for pound, the strongest and fastest units on the field with the most training, weapons, and armor. So then the tables turn, with wins on the 1v1 and 1v10 levels. Then you factor in that there are billions of Elites ready to serve....

In short, just because the Covenant lose to the Flood does not automatically mean that the Horde will dominate them.
Posted by Maikuru 5 years ago
Maikuru
You've managed to reiterate old points without actually addressing any of my concerns with those very points. That is the definition of talking past an argument. Again, thank you for the chat.
Posted by SuperiorArsenal 5 years ago
SuperiorArsenal
I'm not "talking past" anything. Covenant lose small battles with the Flood in-game becuase:
AI programming
Game mechanics
Game model limitation
Game Physics

Flood win against the Covenant out of game because:
They steal their population
They steal their weapons
They can effectively bench press 1,000kg
They are hyper-agile
They don't feel pain/respond to wounds
The outnumber them
They enhance the "converted" forces
They steal their vehicles
They steal their memories
etc.

The fact is, Flood "foot-soldiers" are far more effective war fighters than the Horde could ever hope to be. THAT is why the Covenant struggles with them, yet crushes The Horde.
Posted by Maikuru 5 years ago
Maikuru
@Ober: The psychological aspect of fighting the Flood is very interesting. The Covies obviously aren't a cowardly lot but they'd be more familiar with the destructive capabilities of the Flood than the Horde. Like you said, much of the human dialogue in the games references their fear of the Flood, but I don't think that manifested itself at all in actual game play. It is an interesting thought, though.

@SA: We aren't getting anywhere here. I feel like you're talking past my points and you likely feel the same. In any case, I enjoyed the chat and look forward to reading the debate.
Posted by SuperiorArsenal 5 years ago
SuperiorArsenal
I...don't know what to say about TUF's arguement, in a bad way. It is a bad thing on this website to fully and thouroughly explain your case? He didn't address population numbers, he didn't respond to the glarring fact that if each COG were so powerful the war would have been over quickly, and he barely even responded to glassing! I provided videos and quotes of glassing for chrissake. The only thing that stops your world from being glassed is having a defense fleet in space, something that Sera lacks! TUF also did not address that, without a Forerunner construct on Sera, the Covenant would never discover the prophets' lies. Even with the energy sword, I provided a video SHOWING an Elite with a plasma rifle AND an energy sword. Yet he claims there was "no proof." If I hadn't grown so fond of OberHerr, I may be done with this site. The very structure of the debates almost disallows someone to see reason and simply concede.

HOW CAN THE FORCES OF SERA EVEN ATTACK THE COVENANT!? THEY HAVE HUNDREDS OF PLANETS IN SPACE!!

The fact is, Gears of War CAN'T take the offensive against the Covenant. they can only defend. Even then, they can't defend aganst plasma raining down, again, from SPACE.

Depending on the votes, this may make or break my stay here. If this site thinks a single planet that lacks any sort of space travel can defeat an empire of hundreds of planets that are fully capable of blasting planets orbit, then I would prefer not to dwell in such a lack of logic, reason, and simple math/science.
Posted by Shafer117 5 years ago
Shafer117
uhh the con should be winning this...
Posted by SuperiorArsenal 5 years ago
SuperiorArsenal
contiuned....
Hit hard? They can launch a 100kg man across a room with a single hit. That goes beyond hard. When I get the chance, I'll show you the video. 10 meters would be a conservative estimate for the length of the room. If it can move 100kg 10 meters, it can move 1,000kg 1 meter (Essentially the bench press). The most basic combat form can bench press 1,000kg (1 ton). Often fight unarmed? I'll give you that, but the times that they beat the Covenant, they often come packing heavy weaponry. Killed with a shotgun blast? Depends where you hit them. But then again, the Locust can also be killed quite easily with a shotgun blast, so your point is moot.
-
"To think that such a Covie force would stand a chance against a much more organized, vicious, and militarized force like the Horde doesn't make sense, and I've been shown no expanded universe information to suggest otherwise."
-
You just said warfare was irrelevent, but it actually is. This isn't a simple skirmish. THe Covenant can sit in orbit and rain plasma down all day long.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by OberHerr 5 years ago
OberHerr
SuperiorArsenalTUFTied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: Sources and Arguments point for Pro successfully defending his argument. Con also falsely used game play as a reason for why things couldn't happen, and seemed to not understand his own sources.
Vote Placed by bossyburrito 5 years ago
bossyburrito
SuperiorArsenalTUFTied
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Total points awarded:61 
Reasons for voting decision: Giving Pro conduct for TUF calling him out for "Overloading his debate." I mean, seriously. Arguments for Pro because all his points stand, and all TUFs points got a rebuttle. Sources for Pro, as Con misinterpreted his own sources and used gameplay mechanics as canon. S
Vote Placed by Maikuru 5 years ago
Maikuru
SuperiorArsenalTUFTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: As all factions are imagined to be at the height of power during this conflict, Con's arguments on the destruction of High Charity and the rift among Covenant forces do not stand. It was Con's burden to show why the Covenant forces would split again, especially considering the GoW forces are ignorant of the Prophets, Halos, etc. The most damning argument was the Covie's use of space technology, which could feasibly destroy the GoW factions without ground-based combat whatsoever.
Vote Placed by SuburbiaSurvivor 5 years ago
SuburbiaSurvivor
SuperiorArsenalTUFTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: "I feel I have displayed superior conduct in this debate. 1. My opponent has addressed this debate with an approach of "Attempt to overload the audience with a buttload of information". I think Pro deserves conduct for that. Also, Pro gave a better description of the Covenant forces whereas Con just named a bunch of Locust enemies. Sources because I feel Pro gave better ones.