The Instigator
Jegory
Pro (for)
Winning
2 Points
The Contender
Luteraar
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The Cybermen would have won the Battle of Canary Wharf

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Jegory
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/20/2013 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,323 times Debate No: 34778
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (18)
Votes (1)

 

Jegory

Pro

Full Resolution: The Cybermen would have won the Battle of Canary Wharf had the Genesis Ark not been opened.

PRO will be arguing that the Cybermen would have won. CON will be arguing that the Daleks would have won. BoP is shared.

For the purposes of this debate, the following alternative events will be considered as fact:

- The Genesis Ark was not opened.
- The Doctor never sucked the Cybermen and/or the Daleks into the Void.
- The battle continued until either side was destroyed or until one side was forced to surrender.

Definitions

CYBERMEN - The massed army of at least 5 million Cybermen present on Earth at the time of the battle, including any Cybermen upgraded immediately before or during the battle and the humans of Torchwood who were, temporarily, on the side of the Cybermen against the Daleks.

DALEKS - The four Daleks of the Cult of Skaro WITHOUT the assistance of the Genesis Ark and the million Daleks inside it.

WON - Destroyed the other side, provoked a surrender or forced a full retreat.

First round is for acceptance only. Forfeits result in all seven points going to the other debater. Other than these, rules will be kept at a minimum.

I look forward to a very interesting debate!
Luteraar

Con

Thank you for giving me a chance even tough I did not match your initial criteria.

I hope I will not disappoint you and I look forward to a good debate.

In Dalek voice* This is no debate, this is pest control.
Debate Round No. 1
Jegory

Pro

I'd like to begin by apologising for posting my argument so late; I honestly thought I had another 24 hours left to post it. Still, no harm done. I will now present my arguments.

Strength in Numbers

At the time of the Battle of Canary Wharf (henceforth shortened to BOCW), the Cybermen had 5 million troops present on Earth. The Daleks had four. What's more, the Cybermen were present all across the globe, including in England, the Taj Mahal and Paris [1] as well as Spain [2]. They were also present in ordinary houses, taking over whole families [1]. In 2006, the World's population reached 6.5 billion [3]. Although the Daleks arrogantly claimed they could defeat 5 million Cybermen with one Dalek [1], could they have defeated an army 1,300 times bigger? [4] The honest answer is a resounding no.

Chance of Recruiting from Pete's World

The Cybermen also had the possibility of returning to Pete's World, albeit it taking around 5 years [1], whereas the Daleks were "fired at this world like a cannonball", showing that they had no chance to escaping back through the Void [5]. In any case, there were no more Daleks in the universe after the Time War so the Daleks would have been incapable of recruiting any more Daleks to fight for them.

Human Support

At least at the start of the BOCW, human soldiers fought alongside the Cybermen against the Daleks [1]. The Cybermen, again, had the opportunity to either use these soldiers against the Daleks or upgrade them, as they did with Torchwood personnel. These soldiers, although unfeeling for the Cybermen, seemed completely bound to the Cybermen's wishes so disloyalty would be unlikely.

More Power

Although the Daleks' firepower may have been superior to the Cybermen's, the Cyber-lasers were not the Cybermen's only form of attack. In fact:

"During the battle, although the Cybermen's lasers had no effect on the Daleks, the Cybermen destroyed some with their electrical attack from their hands, ripping off the Dalekanium domes." [6]

This shows that the Cybermen were capable of destroying the Daleks and, with only four to deal with, the ongoing battle would have been very short.

In addition, the Daleks were at first vulnerable to the Cybermen's laser attacks [1], [6]. With the Cybermen's ever-upgrading weaponry, they could have developed another weapon easily capable of penetrating the Dalek shields, killing the Dalek inside.

Conclusion

Therefore, the Cybermen would have won the Battle of Canary Wharf if the Genesis Ark had not been opened. I now hand over to CON for his arguments but request that he doesn't rebut my points until the next round.

Sources

[1] Series 2.13 Doomsday
[2] Series 3.X The Runaway Bride
[3] http://geography.about.com...
[4] http://calculator.com...
[5] Series 2.12 Army of Ghosts
[6] http://tardis.wikia.com...
Luteraar

Con

I am sorry if you feel like I am already refuting your arguments, I came up with all of mine before you posted yours.


Superior weaponry and defense

The Daleks have far stronger weapons than the Cybermen do. The Dalek lasers can kill a Cyberman in one shot, the Cybermen lasers had some affect on the Daleks but only for a moment, the Daleks immediately adapted to the Cyberlasers and after that it didn't harm them at all. [1] With no way of killing a Dalek the Cybermen couldn't have won, it would have taken the Daleks a very long time to kill them all, but eventually the Cybermen would also run out of humans to convert.



New Daleks

It could have been possible for the Daleks to also convert some humans into Daleks, we know it is possible; the dalek emperor turned humans into Daleks [2]. If the cult of Skaro could do that too, they would soon have an army.



Human reinforcement

Many humans would probably help the Daleks:
Some would be fighting for the Daleks from the beginning because the Cybermen outnumber the Daleks and therefor would seem like a bigger threat to them.
Others would follow later; The Daleks would be slaughtering Cybermen without losing even one of their own, many humans would start fighting for the winning( Dalek) side in the hope the Daleks would be so thankful they wouldn't exterminate them after the war.


I would like to apologize for my bad grammar, I am from the Netherlands so English is not my mother tongue.

Also I would like to ask your age, and where you live, you don't have to answer of course but I just like knowing something about the people I debate with.


[1] Series 2.13 Doomsday
[2] Series 1.13 The parting of the ways (part 2)
Debate Round No. 2
Jegory

Pro

I thank my opponent for his arguments. I will now begin my rebuttals.

Superior Weapons and defense

"With no way of killing a Dalek the Cybermen couldn't have won"

While they didn't have any chance of destroying the Daleks, with their lasers, the Cybermen did have other forms of attacks. I'll reiterate the quote I used earlier:

"During the battle, although the Cybermen's lasers had no effect on the Daleks, the Cybermen destroyed some with their electrical attack from their hands, ripping off the Dalekanium domes." [6]

This clearly shows that the Cybermen weren't powerless against the Daleks, so could easily have won the battle against a mere four.

New Daleks

"It could have been possible for the Daleks to also convert some humans into Daleks"

It may have been possible for a Dalek spaceship and the Dalek Emperor himself, but the Cult of Skaro would have had too few resources with which to convert humans into Daleks.

Also, the Daleks may well have been overrun before they could start converting humans. With so many Cybermen, the Daleks would have barely been able to leave the Tower before they were destroyed.

Human reinforcement

"Many humans would probably help the Daleks"

I don't believe any of the human soldiers were really "loyal" to either the Cybermen or the Daleks, had they fought with them. They were forced to fight alongside the Cybermen because they had overrun the tower and forced the personnel to surrender [1]; they had no choice but to fight with them.


"Also I would like to ask your age, and where you live, you don't have to answer of course but I just like knowing something about the people I debate with."

I'll PM you with the information; it seems you are not accepting messages at the moment, so I'll send you the information as soon as possible.


Please present your rebuttals.
Luteraar

Con

Now I will post my rebuttals.

Strength in Numbers

There is no way of refuting that argument, the Cybermen had a massive (and growing) army, only I believe the Daleks would still have defeated them.


Chance of Recruiting from Pete's World

If the Cybermen were to retreat back to their homeworld, that would mean the Daleks had won, for they would have forfeited. And the the Dalek void ship was still active, it was still able to have no mass, background radiation...etc....[1]. So who says they couldn't still fly back into the void with it, "the Daleks were fired at this world like a cannonball" only states they were not able to control were the ship would end up, that does not necessarily mean it was broken.


Human Support

As I stated before, many humans may have thought the Daleks would win the war and would therefore fight on their side, or even try to get under the protection of the Daleks to avoid being upgraded, even if the Daleks wouldn't accept them and would kill them immediately, it would still mean the Cybermen had less allies and less humans to upgrade.


More Power

You state: "During the battle, although the Cybermen's lasers had no effect on the Daleks, the Cybermen destroyed some with their electrical attack from their hands, ripping off the Dalekanium domes."
But I have rewatched the episode several times and couldn't find any scene where this actually happens. [2]
I don't know whether I just keep missing it, http://tardis.wikia.com...... has bad information or http://tardis.wikia.com...... has extra information about the show that normal viewers don't know, but I feel like you should find that out since you were the one using it as a source. Because I don't think one site is enough evidence of that actually occurring when you can't see it in the actual episode.

"In addition, the Daleks were at first vulnerable to the Cybermen's laser attacks. With the Cybermen's ever-upgrading weaponry, they could have developed another weapon easily capable of penetrating the Dalek shields, killing the Dalek inside."
This is true, but as you say yourself, the Daleks were at first vulnerable to the Cybermen's laser attacks, but they adapted to it, this means they could probably also be able to adapt to an upgraded version of the attack, which would mean it would be an endless loop of upgrading without any success.

Now I will also refute your rebuttals.


Superior Weapons and defense

I already did this one at More Power


New Daleks

If the Daleks lacked resources to build a new Dalekanium shell, they could have used the empty shell of one of their own if one of them would die, this way there would always be four of them.

If they lacked the resources to convert a human, they probably could have found everything they needed in the tower, Torchwood had collected a lot of alien stuff over the years.

They couldn't have lacked the knowledge to convert humans into Daleks, because we know the Daleks have collective telepathically-shared knowledge [3], this means they all know everything any other Dalek knows.


I think you aren't able to send me messages because I haven't fully confirmed my identity yet, it also doesn't let me vote for that reason, I have to confirm my identity via mobile phone but my country isn't listed so it doesn't work. But no worries, it is not really important.


Sources


[1] Series 2.12 Army of Ghosts
[2] Series 2.13 Doomsday
[3] Series 7.01 Asylum of the Daleks
Debate Round No. 3
Jegory

Pro

I will now present my final rebuttals.

Strength in Numbers

CON concedes my point here.

Chance of Recruiting from Pete's World

I agree; had the Cybermen fled to Pete's World, they would have lost the battle. However, if the Daleks had done the same, as CON thinks they could have, they would have lost the battle in the same way.

Human Support

Many of the humans only fought with the Cybermen because they had been forced to surrender [1]. Even the Doctor was powerless against the Cybermen. In any case, the Daleks had such a small army their chances of winning would have looked pretty slim, so most human soldiers would have kept on what they thought was going to be the winning side.

In addition, whether the Daleks had won or lost, they would have exterminated all who helped them, while the Cybermen might have been more willing to negotiate.

More Power

CON argues that my source is unreliable. However, I have used that Wiki in particular for quite a long time and have found that most of its information is up to date and very reliable.

You also claimed that the Daleks would have been able to adapt against any form of attack. The Dalek who survived the attack would have been very lucky and, next time, the Cybermen might have developed something that would destroy the Daleks before they could adapt to it.

Superior Weapons and defense

See More Power

New Daleks

If the Daleks merely used a shell of their own, they would still have only four Daleks and be no better off.

I do agree that Torchwood was stuffed full of alien stuff, however I don't think that they would have had the time to upgrade humans; the Cybermen sent a command sending all Cybermen to Torchood Tower [1], allowing them to swamp the tower before the Daleks had even begun experimenting.

Again, I believe they would have lacked the resources and the time, if not the knowledge.

I thank my opponent for this debate. It has been extremely enjoyable and I hope we can debate together again soon.
Luteraar

Con

Now I will present my final turn.

Strength in Numbers

I will just have to give you that one.


Chance of Recruiting from Pete's World

They both may have had a chance to retreat, but if either of them would have done that, the other party would have won, so I believe it is only fair to consider this argument irrelevant and consider us tied (one this argument).


Human Support

Some humans helping the Daleks would have only happened if the Daleks indeed had better weapons and no way of being killed by the Cybermen, or if some humans decided they didn't want to be upgraded and sought protection from the Daleks. Either way, three things could have happened:
1. The Daleks just shot everybody who would get close.
2. The Daleks would pretend to want to protect the humans and then, when they had gathered a bunch of them, they would have exterminated them all at once ( This would be more productive for the Daleks).
3. The Daleks would have accepted them into their army and exterminate them all after all the Cybermen were dead.

The Daleks lost their emotion, but they still are very smart, so they would probably see that 2 and 3 would be better for them, therefore I believe it would have well been possible for the Daleks to make choice 2 or 3.

Note: this is not a new argument this is just a different way of explaining my argument.


More Power

If what the wiki says: "During the battle, although the Cybermen's lasers had no effect on the Daleks, the Cybermen destroyed some with their electrical attack from their hands, ripping off the Dalekanium domes." that would mean that wiki has access to extra information about the show,( because this event isn't shown in the episode ) if you cannot provide evidence they do have this extra information, it is very likely this was written by someone and added without checking it, which makes it invalid.


New Daleks

It is true that the Daleks would not be better of when using one of their own shells, but it would give them the ability to create a 'Dalek' for every Dalek that would get killed ( IF that would even happen).

A tower is easily defendible, and the Cybermen did not have the ability to fly, so they could have put one or two Daleks on guard while the other two started experimenting.

Pro states: "Again, I believe they would have lacked the resources and the time, if not the knowledge." Resources, maybe, but as I said before, there was a lot of stuff in the tower and some of it would have been useful. Time, I just refuted that.
Knowledge, as I said before, the Daleks have collective telepathically-shared knowledge, which means they all know the exact same things, and later on the same four Daleks were transforming Humans into Daleks and some other weird transformations, in the sewers[1] [2], they didn't have any resources they just did their emergency temporal shift to escape from the BOCW and they ended up there. so why couldn't they have done it in a tower full of highly advanced laboratories and all kinds of alien technology? This also proves they did in fact have the knowledge.


I really enjoyed this debate and I want to thank you again for giving me a chance while I didn't match your criteria.

I liked how this debate is about a 'what if?' situation instead of the basic opinion-debates, that and the fact almost anything could have happened ( because it is doctor who and in doctor who anything can happen), made it a very fun and challenging debate.

If you win, I think you deserved it.

May your future debates go well and may you never stop watching doctor who.



[1] Series 3.4 Daleks in Manhattan
[2] Series 3.5 Evolution of the Daleks



Debate Round No. 4
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Luteraar 3 years ago
Luteraar
Please don't vote if you have no knowledge of dr who
Posted by Jegory 3 years ago
Jegory
Luteraar: I've sent you the challenge. I've also decided to relax the rules a bit. I hope we can both enjoy a very interesting debate!
Posted by Jegory 3 years ago
Jegory
I'm basing it on the idea that the humans fought alongside the Cybermen, like they did at Canary Wharf itself.

It doesn't look like anyone else's going to accept this debate; I'll send you the challenge asap.
Posted by Luteraar 3 years ago
Luteraar
Would the Cybermen have been fighting only the Daleks or would they also have been fighting humans, in the second case they would have been able to make more and more Cybermen.
Posted by Luteraar 3 years ago
Luteraar
Thanks
Posted by Jegory 3 years ago
Jegory
Luteraar: I think it will be ok, as long as someone else doesn't accept the debate within the next 24 hours. If they don't, I'd be happy to offer you the chance to debate this topic then :D.
Posted by Luteraar 3 years ago
Luteraar
I would really like to debate with you,

I have seen the entire 2005 series of doctor who and some of the earlier episodes ( including the first episodes with Daleks in it)

I have started 2 debates. I know this does not match your criteria but if you look at them you can see that I participated very seriously.

I didn't complete one of them but I had a very good reason for that and I am going to finish it ( I also lost that one but that wasn't fair because we didn't finish and someone still voted.)
The other one was forfeited by Con but apparently that wasn't enough for me to win, and after that nobody voted so I would have won that one.

I hope you will still give me a chance even tough I don't match your criteria, I promise that if you accept I will follow your rules and debate you seriously.

'I debate now.... debates are cool'
Posted by The10thDoctor 3 years ago
The10thDoctor
I wanted to debate this but I can't sadly, which is really dreadful.
Posted by YellowPandaBear 3 years ago
YellowPandaBear
Makes sense.
Posted by Jegory 3 years ago
Jegory
YellowPandaBear: If no one accepts within the next few days, I'll change the criteria but, until then, I'd prefer to give those who meet the criteria priority.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by GOP 3 years ago
GOP
JegoryLuteraarTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:20 
Reasons for voting decision: I think Pro did a good job in terms of using his sources. He used them very well. In fact, he referred to the same sources when he needed to do so.