The Instigator
Koolbru28
Pro (for)
The Contender
buildingapologetics
Con (against)

The Deity of Jesus Christ

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/20/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 weeks ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 156 times Debate No: 106930
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

Koolbru28

Pro

The purpose of this debate is to discuss the deity of Jesus Christ. Before I begin my opening argument, I would like to let everyone who"s reading this to know that both of us who are debating this topic intend to use the Bible as our authority.

The Bible clearly teaches the full Deity of Jesus Christ. This is evident in John 20;28 where Thomas clearly declares Jesus to be God. It is also evident in John 8;58 where Christ says that he existed before Abraham. Finally. John 1:1-3 teaches that Christ was with God in the beginning and he himself was God
buildingapologetics

Con

Firstly, let me say I am going to disagree with everything I am about to say. I am simply playing the devil's advocate by attempting to disprove the deity of Christ. For this debate, I will be debating from the point of view of a Jehovah's witness. Therefore, everything I say following this point will be from the point of view of a Jehovah's Witness.

I believe that Jesus Christ is the first and greatest creation of Jehovah God. Jesus is a spirit creature and became a man to redeem us from our sins. I maintain that Jesus Christ most certainly is not Almighty God.

John 20:28: There are two possible explanations for this verse. 1) Thomas was simply so amazed and startled that he says "my God"! 2) Thomas could have called Jesus God, but that doesn't mean Jesus is God.

John 8:58: Jesus existed as a spirit creature before Abraham existed. I have no problem with this verse.

John 1:1-3: John 1:1 should be translated "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." (NWT). Jesus is simply a god, he is not Almighty Jehovah. We know this should be the correct translation because there is no definite article in front of god. Since god is not definite, it should be "a god". The translations that use God instead of a god are simply influenced by Trinitarians.

With those verses out of the way, we should examine a few verses that clearly teach that Jesus is not God.

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" (Numbers 23:19).
Since Jesus is both a man and the son of man, he cannot possibly be God according to this text.

"No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us." (1 John 4:12).
No one has ever seen God, but people saw Jesus, so he cannot possibly be God.

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28).
Jesus is not as great as God. If the Father is better than Jesus, then Jesus cannot be almighty Jehovah.

Let each of you look not only to his own interests but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. (Philippians 2:4-7).
Jesus did not try to become equal with God, even though he isn't as great as God.

"but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. " (1 Corinthians 1:24).
If Jesus is the wisdom of God, it would be important to find out if the Bible mentions the wisdom of God elsewhere.
"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth." (Proverbs 8:22-23).
Jesus is the wisdom of God, and according to Proverbs, he was created before the beginning of the earth. This is partly how we know Jesus is the first and greatest creation of Jehovah through whom all other things were created.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were other created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities"all other things were created through him and for him." (Colossians 1:15-16).
Jesus is the firstborn or first created being of Jehovah God. After Jesus was created, according to this passage, all other things were made by Jesus.

"For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself." (John 5:26).
From this, we know that the Son derives his life from the Father. Obviously, he cannot be equal to the Father.

"When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:28).
If Jesus is subject to the Father, again, he cannot be equal to the Father. This is because Jesus is a creation.

"Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."" (John 20:17).
If Jesus is God, how can God have a God? If so, then there would be at least two Gods: Jesus and his God.

"'The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.'" (Mark 12:29).
Scripture clearly teaches over and over again that there is only one God. If you believe Jesus is God, the Father cannot be a separate God. If they are separate Gods, then they violate the clear teaching of monotheism. If you believe the Father is the Son, why do we see examples of Jesus praying to the Father? Was he simply praying to himself?

There are many other verses that clearly teach that Jesus is not God, but I will end here to see how you respond. I look forward to your response.
Debate Round No. 1
Koolbru28

Pro

Point 1: according to Heb 1:8 the Son is declared to be God; Jesus is the Son of God (Mark 1:1) therefore, Jesus is God
#2: John 20:28 Thomas was speaking on the inspiration of Holy Spirt and said that Jesus is God
Point 2: you said, in regards to John 8:58, that Jesus pre exsisted the incarnation, therefore, Jesus is God
Point 3: please provide evidence that John 1:1 was influenced by triniatarians. Evidence, please
Point 4: Numb 23:19 was written before the incarnation, so this verse must be interpreted through the New Testament
Point 5; I John 4:12 means God the Father, not God the Son
Point 6: John 14:28, Jesus is speaking in his humanity, not his Deity
Point 7: col 1:15-16 "firstborn" does not make jesus into a created being
Point 8: John 5:26 The Son has two natures , God and man
Point 9 the Father and Son are distinct yet one in Deity (Jn 10:30)
buildingapologetics

Con

Point 1:
But about the Son, he says: "God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. (Hebrews 1:8).
This verse just says that God is the Son's thrown. I don't see how this has anything to do with the deity of Christ.

"Point 2: you said, in regards to John 8:58, that Jesus pre existed the incarnation, therefore, Jesus is God"
Noah also existed before Abraham. That would make Abraham God as well by the same reasoning. Jesus is simply a spirit creature who became a man.

"Point 3: please provide evidence that John 1:1 was influenced by Trinitarians. Evidence, please"
The evidence is that all modern translations were written by Trinitarians. This is the only way to explain why they would make "god" definite when it is indefinite in Greek.

"Point 4: Numb 23:19 was written before the incarnation, so this verse must be interpreted through the New Testament"
Are you saying that the New Testament can overrule the Old Testament? I happen to think the New Testament does not contradict the previous revelation. God also tells us that he is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. If He was not a man then, He cannot become a man.

"Point 5; I John 4:12 means God the Father, not God the Son"
How do you know? It just says, God. If the Son is God, this would apply to him as well.

"Point 6: John 14:28, Jesus is speaking in his humanity, not his Deity"
What do you mean by this?

"Point 7: col 1:15-16 "firstborn" does not make jesus into a created being"
Firstborn clearly means the first one born or the first one created in this case. That's why the firstborn son of this time is the one that was born or created first. If you don't want to accept the plain understanding of the text, please provide evidence.

"Point 8: John 5:26 The Son has two natures , God and man"
This is impossible. God is by nature perfect, but man is by nature imperfect. Therefore, God cannot be a man as Numbers tells us. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, while Jesus was none of these according to scripture.

"Point 9 the Father and Son are distinct yet one in Deity (Jn 10:30)"
What do you mean by one in deity? If they are distinct, doesn't that just mean one in purpose? Also, the passage you cited means they are one in purpose. This is why Jesus asks that the disciples would be one just as he is one with the Father: "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you." (John 17:12a).

You still have not addressed 1 Corinthians 1:24, Proverbs 8:22-23, 1 Corinthians 15:28, and John 20:17. I look forward to your response to these texts.
Debate Round No. 2
Koolbru28

Pro

Rebuttals;

1. Heb 1.8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." My opponent is quoting the NWT; which, according to source 1, is an invalid translation of scripture. The King James Version is much more accurate in that it makes it clear that the Son is God

2. John 8:58; the key here are the words "I Am". Christ is quoting Exodus 3:14, where God is revealing his name to Moses. Christ, therefore is declaring himself God. That is why in 8:59 the Jews tried to stone him
3. On John :1:1, what evidence do you have to add the article "a" to it?
4. Where in the Bible does it say Christ is a created being?
5. No, both Testaments fit together and don"t contradict. The reason why I made a point that Num. 23:19 was written pre-incarnation is that, I was trying to make a point that in the NT there is a fully revelation
6. In reference to JN. 14:28, i was point out that because Christ is the God-man, he can say "My Father is greater then I"" because that"s him speaking as a man. There is another way to interpret this verse, The Father is greater in his office but not in his nature. This was explained neatly by Dr.. Walter Martin; "Trump is the president, by virtual of his office, he is greater then every American. However, if you asked Trump if he"s was better then me, Trump would say no. Greater in office but not greater in nature."
7. John 5;26; you said it is impossible for God to become a man. If this is so, then explain JN 1;14 "The Word was made flesh" & Col 2;9. "For in him {Jesus} dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
8. I Cor. 1;24 "...Christ is the power of God..." just because it says this does not mean Christ is not God. I Cor 15;28 "The Son also himself shall be subject unto him {The Father}". This does not mean the divine part of the Son; for in Heb. 1;8 we are told that the Son himself shares his Father"s throne. Prov. 8;;22-23 is not a reference to Christ, but to wisdom. Jn 20;17
Is the humanity of Christ, not his deity.

(1) https://www.gotquestions.org...
"
buildingapologetics

Con

1) "My opponent is quoting the NWT; which, according to source 1, is an invalid translation of scripture." How do you know? Do you read Greek? If so, please explain why the translation of Hebrews I cited is incorrect grammatically.

2) John 8:58 doesn't say I am: "Jesus said to them: "Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been."
Exodus 3:14 says " So God said to Moses: "I Will Become What I Choose* to Become."" I don't see the connection between these two verses. If there is one, the burden is on you. Even if he said "I am", that wouldn't make him God. I have said "I am" in countless sentences over the course of my life, but I have never claimed to be God. Also, why do I care what the Jews thought of Jesus? They frequently misunderstood what he was saying.

3) The evidence is the lack of the definite article before "theos". Greek has no indefinite article, so in order to make things indefinite, they simply omit the article. In English, we do have an article to make things indefinite: a. Therefore, in order to render it in English as it was in Greek, we must add a. Also, I must remind you that the burden to prove the deity of Christ is on you. You must demonstrate why there should not be an "a".

4) Colossians calls Jesus the firstborn, so he is obviously the first created meaning. John 1:14 also calls Jesus the only begotten or created son. Also, you still have not addressed the fact that Jesus is called the wisdom of God, and wisdom was created by God according to the Old Testament.

5) I agree that the New Testament is the completion of the Old Testament, but what does that have to do with the deity of Christ.

6) That does not seem like the natural interpretation of the text, but even if I were to accept it, you have a problem. If the Father is in charge of Jesus, how can they be equal ontologically?

7) Regarding Colossians, of course God dwelt in Jesus, just as He dwells in all who believe. The Word was certainly made flesh, but the Word is merely a spirit creature, not God. You still have not dealt directly with my logical argument or the verses I cited. Instead, you have simply brought up other verses.

8) You quoted only part of 1 Cor 1:24, and you left out the part that was key to y argument. Jesus is called the wisdom of God. This same wisdom of God is said to have been created by God in Proverbs. " Prov. 8;;22-23 is not a reference to Christ, but to wisdom." If Jesus is wisdom as the part you cut out says, then this is about Jesus.
Debate Round No. 3
Koolbru28

Pro

Let me explain point by point where you""re wrong;
1. Lots of reputable scholars [http://www.bible-researcher.com..., https://www.worthychristianforums.com..., ) have said it"s a bunch of garbage and a gross mistranslation
2. Sorry, I was quoting my kjv
3. Dr. Walker Martin has said that John 1:1 could read "the Logos(Jesus/Word) was "face-to face with God; the Word was God." He then says that the Deity of Christ is inescapable from the Greek text
4. You"re interpreting your theology into the text!!!! No where does firstborn imply that Christ is a created being. John 17:5. "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.." . Also,
"For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"
Colossians 1:16
5. You said that because wisdom was created, therefore Jesus is created. This is illogical because, just because Jesus is the wisdom of God; doesn"t make him a created being.
6. Because Jesus said he and his Father are one (Jn 10:30)
7. No, Christ is never called a Spirit creature. Col 1:16, Jn 1:3 all affirm Jesus created all things
buildingapologetics

Con

1) "Lots of reputable scholars". This sounds like the argument from authority. Thinks are not true simply because "experts" think they are. If the NWT is truly a "garbage" translation, you should be able to demonstrate this rather than just punting to other people. If you want to play the game of list the scholars who like and dislike the NWT, we can go the route. Otherwise, please make an argument.

2) I am glad we can agree on this point.

3) Again, you are simply punting to a scholar. If his translation is correct, how do you know? Many translators have translated the same passage in different ways. The truth is, since theos does not have a definite article, it must be correctly translated "a god". You still have not dealt with this point.

4) I'm not interpreting my theology into the text; you are. Firstborn literally means "the first one born". If you want to go around the common usage, then you are reading your belief into the text. I agree with John 17:5. As I said, Jesus is the FIRSTborn, so he is the first created thing. Therefore, he was in existence before the world. Colossians 1:16 actually says "because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible". Jesus was created by God, then created all other things.

5) Let me spell this out more clearly.
-Jesus is the wisdom of God.
-The wisdom was created by God.
-Therefore, Jesus was created by God.

6) If Jesus meant he was also God with the Father by saying he was one with the father, why does he then say "I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one" (John 17:22)? Clearly, in this verse, Jesus is not claiming that we can all become God, so "one" must mean something else. Since we are one in the same way Jesus is one with the Father, this is not evidence of Jesus' deity.

7) We know Jesus is a creature since he was created as the wisdom of God, and he is the firstborn of creation. We also know that he is spirit since he existed before matter. Jesus created all other things according to Colossians.
Debate Round No. 4
Koolbru28

Pro

We are done
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by LeeJohnson 4 weeks ago
LeeJohnson
@backwardseden, just stop - the ignorance is real. That YOUTUBE video you posted is hilarious, but also factually and biblically incorrect. Here's why:

1. This video heavily relies on trying to contradict biblical texts- where there are no contradictions to be found.
2. Some of the verses and statements he said are irrelevant, but also wrong, to the main assertion - 2:00, 2:18, 2:42, 3:57, 6:22, 7:17
3. *This was from the comment section, but I thought it said it all* "I have studied the bible, I am NOT a Christian, I cannot stand religion or self-righteous people. with this in mind, this video is a perfect example of a stupid person trying desperately to come across intelligent witty and smart, but failed."

"Indeed there's absolutely no such a thing as being a christian. Period."

WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE TO DISPROVE GOD'S EXISTENCE THEN?!?! I merely parsed through all your debates that involved religion (specifically Christianity), and you not once gave a reason why God DOESN'T exist, you just gave reasons why God and Christians are BAD. These are your most used illogical excuses to explain why God doesn't exist:

1. The fatal flaws of the Bible - You've taken quotes out of context, not reading the full passage
2. Text as a form of communication - Give me one legit source that specifies that text is the worst form of communication, then we can talk
3. God hates children - This triggers me, but, the quotes you took from the Bible are INVALID, but also irrelevant
4. You can't refute the biblical requirements as a Christain - When you read John, Matthew, Luke, and Psalms get back to me
5. Biblical Contradictions - What are they then?
6. Intelligent people overlook God's contradictions - Disagree with this very illogical assumption. Did you know, most intelligent people are Christians... I mean I'm not trying to brag or anything... lol.
7. God and Jesus have no place in modern society - one problem with this assumption: you don't give a reason wh
Posted by backwardseden 1 month ago
backwardseden
- Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus?

Matthew 10: 35-37 "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Luke 12 51-53 "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

Matthew 19: 28-29 "28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."

Luke 14:26 "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Luke 14:33 "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

Indeed there's absolutely no such a thing as being a christian. Period.
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