The Instigator
Wylted
Pro (for)
Winning
11 Points
The Contender
dodokid
Con (against)
Losing
9 Points

The Disney movie frozen is likely an allegory about homosexuality

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
Wylted
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/30/2014 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,333 times Debate No: 66078
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (11)
Votes (4)

 

Wylted

Pro

The resolution is as stated. I merely have to show frozen likely contains an allegory about homosexuality as a large part of it's theme and my opponent must show, I'm full of crap.
dodokid

Con

I disagree with this statement, so I'm willing to take you on in this debate. Your move.
Debate Round No. 1
Wylted

Pro


In the first clip you see, Elsa and Anna are taken to the trolls and the troll king asks if Elsa was cursed or born that way. Her parents make it clear she was "Born This Way". For those who don't know "Born This Way" is a song by Lady Gaga that has basically become the new gay anthem. http://www.mtv.com...

Before that song came out, I'm not sure what the gay anthem was, probably something by George Michael. Shortly after this meeting with the trolls Elsa learned her gayness (Ice Powers) was a bad thing that should be hidden or else it will hurt her ad hose closest to her. She spends her entire childhood in the closet pretty much (A metaphor for keeping your homosexuality secret).


Later on in the movie, when the prince reveals he is a bad guy he says he went after Anna's hand in marriage because everyone knew Elsa was off limits, despite being single. This is a strong indication that she has no interest in men and is therefore a lesbian. I should also be note sheis the first Disney princess without a male love interest.


The second clip in this argument is the song "Let It Go" Where she sings about having to "conceal" her true feelings and pretend to "be the good girl". I assume because society sees her sexuality as bad. She sings of not being able to "go back". Once you come out of the closet there is no going back to being straight.


I've heard the term Ice Queen quite a bit, not now as much as I used to but it is a term used to describe a woman who doesn't have the slightest interest in sleeping with you and I think it's something lesbians get accused of being quite a bit because of their disinterest in men. I find it beyond coincidence that Elsa is a literal ice queen.

Above all else the film is about one woman's love for another and a woman sacrificing herself for the woman she loves. I know they're sisters but I think this message is strong, and intentional.


dodokid

Con

While I see why people might think this is a gay allegory, I really don't think Frozen is anything more than a fun fairy tale for kids about sisterly love.

"Her parents make it clear that she is born this way." I don't think there is any underlying gay themes in this sentence, just something that people can read into the wrong way. Being born a certain way does not necessarily imply homosexuality and in the case of this Disney movie, I don't think it was their intention. People might say they can't help being dyslexic because they were born that way or that they can't help being blind or deaf to name a few examples. In the case of Frozen, it is the fact that Elsa has magical powers and nothing more.

I see where my opponent is going with being "in the closet" for her whole life (this was technically a whole room and not a closet, by the way), but this is just a part of the plot. She is there so that she will not physically harm anybody with her powers. If Frozen had really wanted to make Frozen a metaphor for homosexuality, they probably would not have made Elsa's secret something that can cause physical harm. Since being gay is not something people hide because it could physically put people in danger, I find it unbelievable that Elsa's powers are a metaphor for homosexuality.

As far as I know, it is never said that Elsa is off-limits, she just isn't as eager to find a man as her sister. Elsa's love life is never mentioned in the film and the fact that she is single throughout the film is not enough evidence that she is a lesbian. It can be inferred that since she spent most of her life locked in her room and had little social interaction. Somebody with little experience with social interaction and a set of powers that she cannot control is probably not especially eager to find a man. Also, Elsa's character has been praised for showing young girls the message that you don't need a man to be a strong character, and her lack of love interest was probably done in part to send this message across.

With the song "Let it Go", I believe this is basically the same as what I said for her being locked in her room. This song pertains to her powers, not her "homosexuality".

For the term Ice Queen, this is basically the same as what I said about her not having a love interest. She has had little experience with social interactions and her powers prevent her from wanting to get close to anyone.

The message about a woman's love saving another woman was meant to be sisterly love, and it also enforces the message for young girls that you don't need a man to save you, which is what I believe Disney was going for with this film. If they had wanted to make it a gay metaphor, I believe they would've had a woman who was not related to Elsa save her instead, which did not happen.

In conclusion, I am a strong believer in gay rights, but I don't think that Frozen is a gay allegory.
Debate Round No. 2
Wylted

Pro

My opponent is saying that Frozen isn't an allegory and explains the most obvious reasons for each situation I bring up.

The definition of allegory is that it is a hidden meaning. Almost every work of art be it music, painting, movies or writing contains the most obvious meaning and then layers of different meanings. Usually it's just one layer of extra meaning but if the artist is truly talented it will be tons of layers.

To properly argue against my allegory, you need to show how other allegories are more likely. Or you can argue that Disney made this so it would appeal to a lot of people and therefore they intentionally ade it so people would project their own allegory onto the screen.

To argue that it isn't an allegory by stating the most obvious meanings is a failure to undermine my premises and my argument still stands.

My premises stand and I should win this debate unless my opponent changes his approach. That is all.
dodokid

Con

Pro says that my stating the obvious meanings for why this isn't an allegory is not a decent argument because an allegory is a hidden meaning and I should instead say how other allegories are more likely or how it was made so the audience can project their own allegory onto the screen.

In terms of other allegories being more likely, I should point out what I mentioned in my previous argument that Elsa's "secret" is something that causes physical harm. If this is an allegory for homosexuality, it could be interpreted that Disney is saying that gay people are actually dangerous. If you believe there is an allegory in this film, then Elsa's secret could likely be a metaphor for any other issue that somebody might keep secret, possibly one that actually could cause physical harm. (For example, a drinking problem is more likely to cause physical harm to the people around you than homosexuality if you believe there is an allegory in this film. Someone who is an alcoholic may find similarities between him or herself and Elsa as well.)

In response to Pro's statement that I should prove "that Disney intentionally made it so that people would project their own allegory onto screen", I don't see why there has to be an allegory at all. I don't think there is one, and there doesn't have to be one either (it is a movie targeted for children after all) especially since the story makes sense without any reading into it to begin with. If you really analyze any piece of work, you can find an allegory that was never intended in the first place. It is simply a matter of how a person looks at a piece of film, literature, etc. Since Frozen is a children's film that has a plot that makes sense without reading into it, I don't think there is an allegory present. If there is, then there are other possible themes that it could represent besides homosexuality.
Debate Round No. 3
Wylted

Pro

I have to make this super quick. My opponents arguments fail because he's incapable of seeing beyond the most obvious meaning. It's required when looking at allegories to look at the actual moral of the story.

Obviously the physical pain is meant to symbolize an emotional pain from knowing a loved one is going to hell andit's also meant to portray the social stigma of being a homosexual that also affects and hurts those closest to you.

You see how the town reacted when they discovered Elsa had powers (was lesbian).

Until my opponent can offer a rebuttal that goes beyond stating the story lines most obvious meaning than people should vote for me to win this debate
dodokid

Con

I'll make this quick too since I don't have much more to say on this topic.

It is not that I am incapable of seeing past the most obvious meaning, but for the sake of the argument and for my own enjoyment of the film I simply decide to go with the meaning that is given to me (since it is a kid's movie anyway, something I've already stated).

I believe that the argument of physical pain symbolizing emotional pain that comes from "knowing a loved one is going to hell" is quite a bit of a stretch, especially for Disney. If, for argument's sake, the film really does have a homosexual allegory, this statement implies that Disney probably does not support homosexuality, and based on the outcome of the film, it would seem like they do. This just makes a potential homosexual allegory more complicated in terms of why it would even be created. Also, the argument that being gay affects and hurts those closest to you- how? This is not necessarily true, and pro has given no reasons to back this up.

I've just about said all I think I need to say, but I'd just like to bring up one major point that I only briefly touched upon before: Elsa and Anna are SISTERS. The only other woman that we see Elsa in contact with throughout the film is a woman she is related to. Since pro is set on the idea that there is an allegory in this film, then wouldn't an allegory about incest be just as likely as one about homosexuality?

To wrap things up, I believe Frozen is not an allegory for homosexuality since I don't believe it has one (and if it did, issues such as incest or even a drinking problem are just as likely). Good luck in the votes, Pro. Nice debating with you.
Debate Round No. 4
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Blade-of-Truth 2 years ago
Blade-of-Truth
RFD -

Conduct - Tie. Both had proper conduct.

S&G - Tie. Both had proper spelling and grammar.

Arguments - Con. Pro presented some strong evidence support the homosexual allegory, but there were certain rebuttals made that just didn't uphold his burden. For instance, Con presents reasoning as to why it isn't allegorical to homosexuality by stating the obvious meanings of each case Pro raised. Pro responds by claiming that because allegories are hidden meanings by nature, Con needs to address the possibility of those meanings - not the obvious ones. At this point, I was still siding with Pro, but then Con raises to the challenge by showing how Elsa's secret causes physical harm while homosexuality doesn't. Con then raises the possibility that it was allegorical to a secret that can cause harm like alcoholism. The strongest argument from Con was that allegorical meanings can be subjective for each person. Thus it's just as likely that these allegories are one's more attuned to Con's examples of alcoholism.

After that point, alot of Pro's rebuttals were seemingly short-handed. For instance he states, "Obviously the physical pain is meant to symbolize an emotional pain from knowing a loved one is going to hell andit's also meant to portray the social stigma of being a homosexual that also affects and hurts those closest to you." This is reflective of Con's point about how such allegories can be subjective. Pro never presented any stronger evidence than Con did to show otherwise.

Lastly, Con covers the rest of the cases raised by Pro regarding the sisters and how it can just as likely be an allegory for incest instead of homosexuality.

Ultimately, while Pro built an impressive case at first, it just didn't uphold against the alternative allegories that Con presented. I felt Con's were stronger due to the incest and physical harm cases.

Sources - Pro. Con never utilized sources whereas Pro did with a NYtimes link and YouTube videos.
Posted by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
Well, at least you're smart enough to realize, they're half assed.
Posted by dhardage 2 years ago
dhardage
Yep, My a** is whole, unlike the half-a**ed remarks made in your debate rounds.
Posted by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
What's wrong with being a closet gay? Asswhole
Posted by dhardage 2 years ago
dhardage
What a load of crap. If you would do some research, you would find that the story is based on an old fairy tale of the Ice Queen, well before any thought of a gay agenda ever arose. You must really be a closet gay if you project it onto everything. I'd worry if I were you.
Posted by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
No my back patting will never stop
Posted by dhardage 2 years ago
dhardage
Just prove it and don't break your arm patting yourself on the back before you even make an argument. Good grief.
Posted by 1harderthanyouthink 2 years ago
1harderthanyouthink
Everybody knows that Disney is obviously part of the homosexual plot to take over the US and kill all Christians.

(I wish debate comments had italic options in it, because it might look like I actually believe this.)
Posted by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
I know it is, I caught it t first time I saw that and asked the fiance if she caught it, like usual she was clueless.
Posted by whiteflame 2 years ago
whiteflame
Yeah, pretty obvious one here.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Daltonian 2 years ago
Daltonian
WylteddodokidTied
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Total points awarded:23 
Reasons for voting decision: I'm on mobile, so I will expand this RFD later. Whilst I found Pro's original contentions regarding a possible allegory enticing, I disagreed with Wylted's assertion that con must present an opposing allegory to render his theory illegitimate and counter his evidence. Whilst I agree most films are to an extent allegorical in nature, that allegory does not have to manifest itself in every scene or aspect of the film. An allegory is a secret or hidden message, so it cannot be logically expected to be present in every scene. Thus, I did not find con's argument that the obvious explanations were more feasible to be inherently invalid. Wylted never explained why those exact scenes were more likely to be allegorical than simplistic in the form of a rebuttal to con's R2 contentions. Sources go to pro because he cited parts of the film to much greater extents than con. Happy to expand later tonight.
Vote Placed by MyDinosaurHands 2 years ago
MyDinosaurHands
WylteddodokidTied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: While Pro's reasoning would never stand up in a court of law, in a debate with shared BoP, Pro's looking pretty good. Pro made a decent argument showing how certain aspects of the film could be pretty easily seen as allegorical for homosexuality. Con countered firstly by basically asserting Pro was wrong, and presenting the manifest meaning of the film as his reasoning, even though this debate is all about the latent content of the film. Pro pointed this out, to which Con spent the next 2 rounds either rejecting that premise or trying to counter with some significantly less believable allegorical meanings, such as alcoholism. I also award Pro sources because there was good use of movie clips to present ideas, something Con could've benefited from.
Vote Placed by whiteflame 2 years ago
whiteflame
WylteddodokidTied
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Total points awarded:23 
Reasons for voting decision: I originally found Pro's argument quote persuasive. However, two problems eventually came to dominate the debate due to limited response from Pro. First, I never get a response to the argument that the assumption that an allegory exists isn't justified. It's not a great argument, but it did need some measure of rebuttal. Second, Con's own allegories look about as solid as Pro's, as there is a distinct and reasonable question regarding the allegory's relationship to physical pain. I end up agreeing with Con that, if such an allegory does exist, then Disney did not put it in on purpose, due to the backlash they'd receive. Hence, I vote Con. As Pro was the only one to utilize references with his arguments, I do give him source points.
Vote Placed by Blade-of-Truth 2 years ago
Blade-of-Truth
WylteddodokidTied
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Total points awarded:23 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments.