The Instigator
Balacafa
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
MagicAintReal
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points

The Earth revolves around the Sun

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
MagicAintReal
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/3/2015 Category: Science
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 899 times Debate No: 79344
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (19)
Votes (1)

 

Balacafa

Con

Round 1: Acceptance

The rest of the rounds are main points and rebuttals.
MagicAintReal

Pro

I accept...I am curious too.
Debate Round No. 1
Balacafa

Con

Everything that has mass has gravity. The more massive something is, the more gravity it has. The sun and other planets all each have their own “gravity well” which interact and pull on one another. Because there are several different gravity wells interacting with each other, it means that everything in an orbital system (like our solar system) orbit the center of mass of the system. This center of mass is called the barycenter. The Earth, the sun and everything else in our solar system actually orbit this barycenter – not the sun.

WHERE IS THE BARYCENTER?

In a single star system like ours, most of the time (but not always), the barycenter is located somewhere within the star itself. However, most barycenters continuously change as massive objects (like planets) orbit a star.

If an unusual alignment happens where a large percentage of mass is on one side of the star, the barycenter can exist outside of the star’s radius. In cases of two star systems, the barycenter will be located between the two stars. If the stars aren’t of the same mass, it will be closer to the heavier, or more massive one.

The Earth doesn’t even orbit where the barycenter currently is. It orbits where it was roughly eight minutes ago. If the sun suddenly vanished, we would continue to our orbit it for another 8 minutes before shooting off on some random tangent because gravity isn’t instantaneous – it propagates at roughly the speed of light.




Every single object in the solar system, from the gargantuan sun to the tiniest speck, exerts a gravitational pull on everything else. The solar system is basically a massive game of tug of war, and all of the yanking balances out at a specific point: the center of mass, or baycenter. Everything in the solar system orbits around that point. Sometimes, it's almost smack dab at the Sun's center. Right now, the barycenter is just outside the Sun's surface. But it's constantly changing depending upon where the planets are in their orbital paths.

Because the Sun holds 99.87% of all the mass in the solar system, it's always going to win the tug of war. Even if all the planets were perfectly lined up on one side of the Sun, the center of mass would be just 800,000 kilometres off the surface of the Sun. That sounds like a lot, but remember, our solar system is big! Such a barycenter would be roughly 70 times closer to the Sun than the closest planet to the Sun, Mercury.



Sources

http://spaceplace.nasa.gov...

MagicAintReal

Pro

Thanks Con for the debate.

After reading Con's remarks, I maintain that the earth revolves around the sun.

I agree that earth goes around the barycenter, and I agree that the barycenter moves depending on gravitational pull from mass in the solar system other than the sun.

By going around this barycenter, the earth revolves around the sun.
How many times has the earth revolved around the barycenter and NOT around the sun?
Is it possible for a revolution to be made around the barycenter without making a revolution around the sun?

I believe that the resolution is actually a matter of the path of earth's revolution, not its gravitational influence. So, as the earth revolves around the barycenter, it has to revolve around the sun.

Con also contradicts their self:
"The Earth...actually orbit[s] this barycenter - not the sun."
Then Con immediately says:
"However...massive objects (like planets) orbit a star."

My questions for Con :
Is the earth one of those massive objects that orbits a star?
If yes, then is the star that the earth orbits our sun?

I undrstand that the barycenter is the influence of the orbit of the earth and the sun, but the path of earth's orbit has to revolve around the sun as well.
The graphic below depicts the barycenter (the red plus sign) between the sun (the big circle) and the earth (the small circle).

https://upload.wikimedia.org...
The above link shows the animation.
Debate Images
Two bodies with an extreme difference in mass orbiting a common barycenter internal to one body.

While the points of Con's cited article from NASA are valid and relevant, hinting that the earth does not "exactly" revolve around the sun is disingenuous.

Even though the moon revolves around the barycenter between the earth and the moon, the moon revolves around the sun as well.
The solar system's barycenter, 99.87% of which belongs to the sun, is manipulating the orbits, but the paths themselves revolve around the sun.

Below are diagrams of the inner solar system on July 2015 from NASA.
http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov...

Inner Solar System Diagram (top view)
The diagram shows the view from above the ecliptic plane (the plane containing the Earth's orbit around the sun).
The earth's revolution around the sun is the cyan orbit in the diagram.
Asteroids are yellow dots and comets are symbolized by sunward-pointing wedges.

I maintain that the earth revolves around the sun.
Debate Round No. 2
Balacafa

Con

The barycentre for our solar system can be practically considered to be the Sun as it lies so close or inside however sometimes this isn't the case. In fact, the barycentre varies according to the movement and positions of the masses of the planetary bodies and other satellites. At the moment I believe the barycentre is just outside of the Sun. Schools don't teach this (although some enthusiastic teachers might mention it) because it would complicate the idea for students who are learning simpler concepts. Once these concepts are confidently understood then more advanced physics are learnt in higher education.

The barycentre in any system is the common centre of gravity, it is the point at which both bodies orbit around, and is determined by the ratio of the bodies' masses.

If you made a thought experiment, and thought of it as the balancing point or fulcrum between two bodies on a see-saw. If both bodies are the same mass then the point is in the middle, but if body A is more massive then the point will be closer to body A.

Watch this whole video for a greater understanding of my argument : https://www.youtube.com...

Continuing on from this point. The reason that so many people think that they are orbiting the Sun is because the barycenter is so close to the sun and is sometimes in the sun. If you want to be accurate you would say that the Earth orbits the barycenter because if you watched the video the sun also orbits the barycenter although the movment is hard to see since the sun is so close to the barycenter. It is inaccurate to say that the Earth orbits the sun since at some points it does not orbit the sun. If, during important scientific studies, regarding what the Earth actually orbits, stating that the Earth orbits the Sun is scientifically incorrect. At secondary school and primary school it is safe to assume that the Earth orbits the Sun since the barycenter is so close to it, however, if you are doing your degree in the subject then it is scientifcally incorrect to believe that the Earth orbits the Sun.

Yes the Earth goes round the Sun but it is not orbiting the sun it is orbiting the barycenter. In doing so it goes round the sun but since it orbits the barycenter it is not accurate.





These facts prove that the Earth does in fact technically orbit the barycenter not the sun. I will now make some rebuttals.

My opponent states that the Earth has to revolve around the Sun as well however that does not mean that it is orbiting the sun as I have said previously it is orbiting the barycenter and is revolving around the sun in the process. It is not orbiting the Sun.

I keep my view that the Earth does not orbit the Sun. It orbits the barycenter.

Sources

http://tinyurl.com...
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http://tinyurl.com...
http://tinyurl.com...
http://tinyurl.com...
http://tinyurl.com...
http://tinyurl.com...


MagicAintReal

Pro

I have already accepted and agree with the idea that the earth orbits the solar system's barycenter, and that this barycenter is not always inside the sun. I further accept and agree that the barycenter is just off of the sun's surface right now.

None of this changes my acceptance of the idea that the earth revolves around the sun.

I pointed out last round that the resolution speaks to the path of, not the gravitational influence of, the earth's revolution.
The earth's revolution, like the moon's and the asteroids of our solar system's revolution, is a path around the sun, even though the gravitational manipulation is the solar system's barycenter.

I must address some of Con's claims.

Con says:
"Schools don't teach this (although some enthusiastic teachers might mention it) because it would complicate the idea for students who are learning simpler concepts."

My Response:
Though, I'm contractually obligated to omit the name of the school system for which I teach, I can tell you that I am a high school science teacher in Maryland, and that our curriculum has had the concept of center of gravity (barycenter) as long as I've been teaching.
We only teach the concept however, based on a two body interaction...like between the earth and the sun or the moon and the earth.

The idea put forth by Con that the sun's barycenter is actually a sum total of all of the gravity in the solar system may not directly be reflected in our curriculum, but the idea that two objects move around a shared center of gravity (barycenter) most certainly is.
So, even if I weren't an enthusiastic teacher, schools do teach this, and we actually regard this as a "simple concept" for the students...I also reject that shared center of gravity is an "advanced" concept.

Con continues:
"It is inaccurate to say that the Earth orbits the sun since at some points it does not orbit the sun."

My Response:
Orbit just means a curved path. There are NO POINTS where the earth does not have a curved path around the sun...none.
Even if the barycenter is 800,000 km off of the sun's surface, the earth's curved path (revolution) is always around the sun.

Con contradicts their self again:
"Yes the Earth goes round the Sun but it is not orbiting the sun."

My response:
Really? Now who's being unscientific? If the earth goes around the sun, then its revolution is around the sun.
Con is playing with definitions, but this is basically a concession that the earth revolves around the sun.

I appreciate Con instigating this argument, but I think they could have made a better resolution for their argument.
The current resolution is "The Earth Revolves Around The Sun."
Unfortunately, Con clearly stated, "I have said previously [the earth] is orbiting the barycenter and [the earth] is revolving around the sun in the process."

My Response:
This is most certainly a concession that "the earth is revolving around the sun."

Perhaps if Con makes a debate with the resolution "The Sun Is Why The Earth Revolves" Con can introduce the total solar system's barycenter idea without resorting to conceding the debate. The problem is that revolution is not just gravitational influence, it is also a direction...a path.

I maintain that the earth revolves around the sun thanks to the solar system's barycenter.
Debate Round No. 3
19 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by bladerunner060 1 year ago
bladerunner060
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>Reported vote: whiteflame// Mod action: Not Removed<

3 points to Pro (arguments).

RFD: "The problem with this debate is the poorly crafted resolution. Con argues that the Earth orbits the Sun... yet the resolution uses the word "revolves". Pro exploits this. The word "orbit" implies a central point, and thus requires that we look to the barycenter rather than the Sun. The word "revolve" doesn't imply the same thing. As long as we are rotating around a given object, we still revolve around it. It doesn't have to be at the exact central point of that revolution in order to be revolved around, and since both sides agree that the Sun exerts a tremendous force that leads to that revolution, it's made all the more difficult to refute. Thus, as Pro did, it's simple to maintain that the barycenter is a thing that is true, and yet that the Earth still does revolve around the Sun. Since Con never argued the resolution, while Pro did, I vote Pro."

Reason for non-removal: It is unclear why this vote was reported. The voter awarded arguments alone and justified their interpretation of the debate, focusing on the wording of the resolution in the context of Pro's response to it and Con's failure to respond to it. They showed that they read the debate, that they analyzed both sides, and why they voted the way they did. Mere disagreement with a voter's reasoning on someone's part is not grounds for moderation to remove a vote.
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Posted by MagicAintReal 1 year ago
MagicAintReal
It's just that I loved your idea of countering common knowledge with a very proven concept...I commend you for that. If you had worded the resolution to be about the cause of the orbit rather than the orbit itself, you win easily and teach people a new way to look at earth's orbital influence.
Posted by Balacafa 1 year ago
Balacafa
You kind of knew what my argument was going to be from the beginning since you posted a link to a source very similar to mine. I didn't need to be any more specific. You managed to work out what I was going to argue before I started my first argument.
Posted by MagicAintReal 1 year ago
MagicAintReal
Yeah, but you can put any definitions you wish, so long as Pro agrees with you.
How about:
"The Earth's Orbit Is Determined By The Sun"
This way, revolution or orbit, you can refute the influence of earth's orbit with the Barycenter argument.
Posted by Balacafa 1 year ago
Balacafa
It could have been worded differently and I could have provided definitions however definitions are debatable. I could only find definitions that were biased one way or another.
Posted by MagicAintReal 1 year ago
MagicAintReal
Ok, you're right, but do you agree that the resolution could have been worded differently for you?
That's all I'm saying.
Put definitions in round 1 next time too.
Posted by Balacafa 1 year ago
Balacafa
Well, it depends what articles you're looking at.
Posted by MagicAintReal 1 year ago
MagicAintReal
I was pointing out that citing yahoo answers is much like citing the source that Tim Minchin cites throughout his song "The Good Book."

Is an elliptical revolution an orbit?
Is an elliptical revolution a revolution?

To me, barycenter or not, an orbit is a revolution.
If you search astrophysics articles for "earth's revolution", you'll arrive at "earth's orbit."
Posted by Balacafa 1 year ago
Balacafa
Okay ....
Posted by MagicAintReal 1 year ago
MagicAintReal
When I wanna know how to be good, it's to the good book that I go, because it is a book, and it is good, and it's a book.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
BalacafaMagicAintRealTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: The problem with this debate is the poorly crafted resolution. Con argues that the Earth orbits the Sun... yet the resolution uses the word "revolves". Pro exploits this. The word "orbit" implies a central point, and thus requires that we look to the barycenter rather than the Sun. The word "revolve" doesn't imply the same thing. As long as we are rotating around a given object, we still revolve around it. It doesn't have to be at the exact central point of that revolution in order to be revolved around, and since both sides agree that the Sun exerts a tremendous force that leads to that revolution, it's made all the more difficult to refute. Thus, as Pro did, it's simple to maintain that the barycenter is a thing that is true, and yet that the Earth still does revolve around the Sun. Since Con never argued the resolution, while Pro did, I vote Pro.