The Instigator
wpfairbanks
Pro (for)
Winning
14 Points
The Contender
MrMarkP37
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The Election of Woodrow Wilson Marked the Shaping of The Modern Political Parties

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Post Voting Period
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after 2 votes the winner is...
wpfairbanks
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/9/2009 Category: Politics
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,289 times Debate No: 7317
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (22)
Votes (2)

 

wpfairbanks

Pro

Much questioning goes into determining the origins of the modern U.S. political parties. For example, people say that Lincoln was the first Republican, but any examination of his policies would prove that he was what we would consider a modern liberal or at least a centrist with nationalist leanings (I would prefer that this did not become the main controversy). I would like to distinguish what I mean my "modern". I mean the principles which most resemble those of the "modern" (late 20th and 21st century) political ideologies.

I here resolve, because of Republican William H. Taft's conservatism (following the progressive Republican agenda of Roosevelt), the Democratic party was forced to nominate a strong progressive candidate in the election of 1912, and in doing so they nominated Woodrow Wilson, the first modern Democrat.
MrMarkP37

Con

This is my first ever debate so please be gentle. If I am understanding your point correctly you are stating that Woodrow Wilson was the first ever modern democrat and that is the subject that we will be debating.

There are two main thrusts to my argument against. The first being that there were politicians before Wilson that established progressiveism and that there were elements of Wilson's character that seperated him from the modern democratic party.

I understand that you don't want this argument to center around Lincoln so I will make this comment brief, but as you yourself stated it could easily be argued that it was Lincoln that established progessivism on the national scale.

My argument will focus on a politician much closer to the time period of Wilson, however, and that man is Theadore Roosevelt. I believe that it was Roosevelt that established the modern era of progessivism, which is the underpinning of Democratic positions and philosophies in the modern era.

Roosevelt began the regulation of the business industry, he argued for the a thriving "middle class" and he believed that those not in power deserved in advocate and a fair deal. This are core principals of the modern progressive area and that is why I believe that it was Roosevelt and not Wilson that established the postions of the modern democratic party. Thank you for throwing this debate out there, I look forward to your response and the tet e tet that will ensue.
Debate Round No. 1
wpfairbanks

Pro

Firstly, welcome to debate.org sir, and I wish you the best. I feel as though there is some mild confusion indeed. You stated that I'm stating that "Woodrow Wilson was the first ever modern democrat" and the biggest problem here is I am stating that Wilson was the first ever modern Democrat (with a capital D). I would agree with your analysis of Mr. Roosevelt as the founder of the "democratic" agenda, but Roosevelt was not a Democrat. I am stating that Wilson is the first president of any party to truly establish the status-quo for the party's future.

"There are two main thrusts to my argument against. The first being that there were politicians before Wilson that established progressiveism and that there were elements of Wilson's character that seperated him from the modern democratic party."

Now, I would completely agree that there were politicians that established progressivism, but they were not Democrats. I would also like to make clear that we are talking about politicians that became president and president only. So my question to you is what Democratic presidents before Wilson had a progressive agenda? And I hope we're referring to progressive as in the party, no the word itself.

Thanks again for joining the debate, and best of luck to you sir
MrMarkP37

Con

MrMarkP37 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
wpfairbanks

Pro

Con,
I am a bit bummed regarding your forfeit. Well, going against the volition to forfeit this round in order to render the debate evenly, I have decided to post exactly why Wilson was the first modern Democratic president, using both inductive and deductive method. I hope you will have the time to respond (I hope 24 hours is enough) and will use the added 4th round to strengthen yourself. Good luck.

First, I will use deduction to show why no other presidents were the first modern Dems.

Andrew Jackson: Ethnic cleansing, against gov. spending for advancement, states rights,
Martin Van Buren: advocate of free trade, lower tarrifs (Wilson did too, but then enacted federal tax)
James Knox Polk: Expansionist, nation building (Texas), "fifty-four fourty or fight"
Franklin Pierce: Not much of anything, let alone a "modern" candidate
James Buchanan: CERTAINLY not much of anything
Grover Cleveland: Opposed subsidies, imperialist, against unions
Woodrow Wilson: Covered later on...
Franklin Delano Roosevelt: 2nd modern dem, not first due to those later down.
Harry S. Truman: Nobody can be called the first modern dem after Wilson and Roosevelt
John Fitzgerald Kennedy: " "
Lyndon Baines Johnson: " "
James Earl 'Jimmy' Carter: " "
William Jefferson 'Bill' Clinton: " "

Now for why Wilson is the first modern Democratic Pres:
-established income tax
-progressive tax, corperations and rich paid 5% of income more than middle class
-establish Federal Reserve to help keep loans low and help stuggling institutions
-Appointed Louis Brandelis to supreme court. Probably most liberal appointee in history
-Created workers compensation
-Keating-Owen Act of 1916, labor rights for children and women
-Regulated interstate commerce
-supported federal tax money for legislating social change
-Smith-Lever Act of 1914 funded statewide agricultural eduaction and subsidies
-intellectual elitism (just for laughs)

Sources:
-American history: A survey By: Alan Brinkley (professor of U.S. history at Columbia
-Clements, Kendrick A. The Presidency of Woodrow Wilson (1992)
-wikipedia.org
-democrats.org (which i used to match Wilson's policies with the moderns)

Hope for your response quickly, good luck
MrMarkP37

Con

MrMarkP37 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
wpfairbanks

Pro

Again, I am sorry about you forfeiting. I wish you would stop back and give some sort of reasoning. I am also a little bit upset that this debate went to a bit of waste. I hope everyone reading the debates will investigate my ideas further. Thanks
MrMarkP37

Con

MrMarkP37 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
22 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
According to the link he "urged" greater powers for the ICC, "Worked hard for" the passage of the sixteenth amendment. That does NOT sound like a concession :).

It also says he started to regret some of it later, which means maybe he could be called conservative later in his presidency-- i.e., when he stopped doing anything, and stopped mattering, therefore leaving the net effect of his presidency decidedly progressive. Now, obviously, if he only regretted it later, it wasn't part of his ideology before that.
Posted by wpfairbanks 8 years ago
wpfairbanks
No, it's because ideologically, Taft was more conservative during his presidency. Every reason you cited for him not being conservative, was done against his own volition, and it appeal to the republican progressives, who were highly critical of his presidency.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
Because it doesn't affect the resolution?

If "laissez-faire" republicans supported Taft, then they were morons or dishonest :).
Posted by wpfairbanks 8 years ago
wpfairbanks
Well, my point is, is the more conservative Republicans chose Taft as their candidate for president in 1912, even though Roosevelt won all 13 primaries. It was the 1890's laissez-faire Republicans that liked Taft. And Wilson passed the income tax, Taft did not.

So if you know this, then why don't you debate?
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
In the modern sense of what "conservative" is supposed to mean-- someone market-oriented but socially restrictive-- Taft could not possibly fit the description. He supported the creation of the federal income tax, perhaps the most crucial key to the 20th century expansion of government. He busted twice as many trusts as Teddy Roosevelt. He strengthened the ICC, a mechanism for government control of the economy (socialism). If, as you say, Teddy was progressive, then Taft was more so.
Posted by wpfairbanks 8 years ago
wpfairbanks
You don't think Taft was a conservative? Why?
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
Taft was conservative? You make me lulz hard.

http://www.u-s-history.com...

that said, wjemelements: Kennedy's successor was LYNDON johnson, not andrew johnson.
Posted by wpfairbanks 8 years ago
wpfairbanks
Wjmelements: It that made any less sense, I would think Sean Hannity had said it.
Posted by crackofdawn_Jr 8 years ago
crackofdawn_Jr
I'll debate you later on that wpfairbanks. Right now I'm in a debate tournament and I'm busy at school and Spring Break I'm visiting family.
Posted by wjmelements 8 years ago
wjmelements
You mean 'The Death of Kennedy and The Effective Power Turn to Andrew Johnson Marked the Beginning of the Modern Welfare and Entitlement Grabs."

What a greater turning point in history. That and the crowing of King Franklin the First.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by sabrafink 8 years ago
sabrafink
wpfairbanksMrMarkP37Tied
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Vote Placed by wpfairbanks 8 years ago
wpfairbanks
wpfairbanksMrMarkP37Tied
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