The Existence of God (Christian)
In this debate, intend to discuss the God of the Christian origin. As Con, I will be arguing that God does not exist. Thus my opponent will be arguing that God does exist. I wish to take this debate seriously.
Remember to win this debate you need to provide evidence that God exists.
God: A divine, supernatural, omniscient, omnipotent, personal, supreme being that is thought to have created life, moral values, and the universe.
Theist: Having the belief in a god/gods.
Atheist: Lacking the belief in god/gods.
Creationism: the belief that the universe and living organisms originate from specific acts of divine creation, as in the biblical account, rather than by natural processes such as evolution.
Evolution: the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth.
Omniscient: All-knowing, knows past, present, future.
Omnipotent: having unlimited power; able to do anything.
Faith: strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
First round is acceptance only. Second round will be for arguments only. Third round and on is for arguments and rebuttals.
A forfeit is an automatic loss.
My accepting the debate, you accept all the definitions and rules. If you would like to question a rule or definition, please specify in the first round.
Do not limit your duties. Many religious debaters limit their task to proving that there is a possibility that God exists. This is obviously unfair, for I am arguing God does not exist, my opponent is arguing that God does exist.
I've known our Creator since December 7th, 1979 when He spoke into my mind these words, "I AM YOUR CREATOR". From that point on, every time He came into my mind to give me a command to obey, I knew it was the same Creator who spoke into my mind. I'm won't go into detail about the long period of time He spent getting me ready to testify to His knowledge that I've been sharing in this forum as His last saint because it's obviously no evidence that He exists. To look at me as a 60 year old man of Norwegian blood who has spent his life as a farmer, musician and construction worker, you would be totally deceived that I am God's last saint.
However, the knowledge I possess that contains the past, present and future and how we were created, is all the evidence that I need to understand there is definitely a Creator to everything we observe, smell, taste, hear, touch and feel emotionally.
Since there is no evidence that a Creator exists, I will have to use other means to help the reader of these debates to understand that we do have a Creator to this virtual reality that we're living in, It's easier to look at the life we're experiencing as a dream that isn't real at all. I call it a make-believe world that our Creator created to give us the sense that we're real people.
In fact, there is no evidence to show that our bodies are real, either. I will be using quantum mechanics and analogies to give you knowledge about how we were created. With this knowledge, you will be almost forced to believe that someone had to put it all together to build this virtual reality we're experiencing.
I will end this first part of the debate with this fact. I am the knowledge of our Creator. It's impossible to show evidence of this but by the end of this debate, you will realize that I know things without ever going to school in this world to learn what I understand very well.
I won't be using any biblical scriptures because I know that they are NOT evidence that our Creator exists. Anyone could have made up the stories in the Bible. But by the end of this debate, you will realize that it was impossible for people to create anything.
God bless the readers who listen to the voice of the Lord in this debate,
Thank you for accepting this debate Pro, and I look forward to its outcome. I am glad that you do not use the Bible as evidence. I look forward to a challenging debate with someone more than 4 times my age.
We can conclude that God is deemed perfect. Something is deemed ‘perfect’ when it fits completely to an ideal standard of that thing, which entails that it cannot be any better. Therefore a perfect thing will have no flaws, defects, lacks, weaknesses, disadvantages; it will not possess any negative feature or lack of a positive feature that pushes it away from the ideal perfection. Since God is perfect, it cannot create imperfect things thus losing its perfection.
Things that we call "perfect" are usually exaggerations of real things. For example, you might wonder what a "perfect friend" might be like, yet no one has a perfect friend in real life. Anyone who says that they do is probably exaggerating. The same goes for intimate partners, children, pets, parents, bosses and employees, teachers, students, schools, jobs, and so on. Perfection in any of these categories tends to be an idealization of real things, where the good aspects are preserved and perfected while the bad aspects are eliminated. We can infer something said to be "perfect" is unlikely to exist because perfect things tend to be nonexistent idealizations of real things. Since perfect things are unlikely to exist and God is a perfect thing, it follows that it is unlikely that God exists.
Now onto my second point.
People seem to believe that God is the most moral being in the universe. Part of this belief is that God does not have certain kinds of feelings. Although God may have the feeling of anger, God does not have the feelings of lust or envy, which would break his moral perfection. Moreover, part of this ordinary concept of God is that God knows more than anyone else. In particular the ordinary man supposes that God knows (at least) all that men know. However these two beliefs, once correctly understood, are logically incompatible.
A person who knows lust and envy has at least had the feeling of lust or envy. Since God has all of men's knowledge and more, he must know lust and envy. But to say God has known lust and envy is to say that God has had the feelings of lust and envy. But this is incompatible with God's moral goodness. Hence God does not exist.
Now onto my last point.
The Christian God is defined as a personal being that is all-knowing. According to Christians, personal beings have free will.
In order to have free will, you must have more than one option, each of which is choice. This means that before you make a choice, there must be a state of uncertainty during a period of potential: you cannot know the future. Even if you think you can predict your decision, you can never know with entire certainty what the future holds since you have free-will.
A being who knows everything can have no "state of uncertainty." It knows its choices in advance. This means that it has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore lacks free will. Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a personal being who knows everything cannot exist. Therefore, the Christian God does not exist.
I would like to thank my opponent very much for accepting this debate. This is the end of my response as I have stated my three arguments. It is now time to hear my opponent’s arguments. I understand that my opponent will not use his visions as evidence of God and do his side in this debate by providing evidence for God or giving arguments for his existence. I look forward to the next round and wish my opponent the best of luck.
Our Creator created atheists and Christians for the same reason and that is to build things in this world. Neither an atheist or a Christian can teach God's people how we were created because they don't have any knowledge to do so. Neither an atheist or Christian has any physical evidence that our Creator exists. They don't have any physical evidence that they exist, either.
I'm not here to prove to atheists or Christians that our Creator exists by using physical evidence because it's impossible. All I'm doing is testifying to His knowledge and sharing that information with His chosen believers who listen and learn how they were created and how they will be living in the next age in their new bodies. I'm also being used by our Creator to teach His believers His eternal plan. For the remaining part of this second debate, I will be showing you how God taught me how He created everything before we can observe formed visible objects.
Our Creator planned, created and formed make-believe worlds for His created beings to experience because He can. This is the only reason He did what He did. If you could plan, create and form illusions such as trees, human beings, rocks, water, fire, etc., I'm sure you would have fun doing it. Since our Creator was able to create us and make us believe we're real, I'm sure He had a great time doing so.
Anything that is visible has to be built according to a plan. For example; A building does not get built without a plan. They simply don't build themselves. So this means a tree, rock, water, beast or human being did not get built without a plan. Man should understand how impossible it is for them to build a tree, even if they had a plan. That's because a tree was not built with hard physical matter. I'll explain this with quantum mechanics and other analogies that our Creator has used to teach me how He created everything.
If you're expecting to see me use hard physical evidence to prove that our Creator exists, then you were believing a lie. It's impossible to use hard physical evidence because there's no such thing as matter, or mass. For the past 100 years, physicists have been using mathematics to measure things invisible to us such as the particles in atomic elements that they thought were predictable pieces of matter that contained mass and weight. This is called quantum mechanics, the study of dimensions beyond the two dimensions that man observes. Man cannot see anything beyond two dimensions but with modern technology that came from our Creator's plan called the beast, we are now beginning to observe beyond ten dimensions.
Mathematics was a very important language that came from the beast because it's used to measure visible things and build things with human hands. Our Creator planned to use modern technology built with human hands in the last days of this first age to use as analogies to teach me exactly how He formed all these visible objects from His creation. Up until quantum mechanics, God's people thought the visible objects had determined locations and that they were real. This means that when an object moved in our world, they thought it was a hard physical object that was moving in a continuous fluid motion. With the study of quantum mechanics, physicists have learned that this former determined view of physical objects was untrue. Now they know that what they observe is not a real object. A few of them have learned that they are total illusions that aren't real at all. In fact, no object moves. They only appear to move because what we're actually observing are separate waves of information ( pictures ) that change from one picture to the next. Our Creator used the analogy of cinema to teach me that we can only observe one picture of information at a time.
Physicists understand that what we observe are waves of information and not hard physical matter moving in a continuous fluid motion. The slit test, mathematics and many other experiments have revealed that particles are not what they once thought they were. This opened up their minds to the fact that what we thought was hard physical objects moving in a determined fashion is a lie. Now they are saying that what we're observing are waves of information that make us believe these objects are real and moving on their own but only as we're observing these objects. When visible objects are not being observed, they don't exist as visible objects. They are only invisible waves. This means that all visible objects are illusions that aren't real at all.
Time and space are also illusions that can only be observed by an observer. Our Creator has used computer technology, cinema, CAD programs and photography to teach me how these things are only illusions. If needed later in this debate, I will share some of these analogies to show you exactly how God used them to teach me that time does not exist as something real and that the spaces between visible objects are only illusions, also.
When we peer out into the night sky and see visible lighted up objects that we call stars, moons, planets, asteroids, galaxies, etc. , we see dark space between them. What we're observing is a two dimensional picture that can easily be simulated in a computer program called CAD. We can also use CAD ( computer aided drafting ) to make us believe we're traveling towards these objects in the sky and simulate a spacecraft getting closer and closer to the moon. This is easily done by changing the information that is being processed in the processor of a computer to make us believe we're traveling in motion. This is a perfect analogy to teach you how we perceive motion from our viewpoint when we see an object moving. We are not observing an object actually moving on it's own. We are only observing the changing of information like we observe in a computer monitor to make us believe the object is moving.
Many people ask questions about what came first in the world we perceive from our own viewpoint. Did the chicken come before the egg or the egg come before the chicken? From a chicken's viewpoint, the chicken was first. That's because an egg cannot observe itself as being an egg. Therefore, it's impossible for a chicken to know whether the chicken was first in this world or an egg.
The first body of a man that became aware of himself in this world did not observe himself being created or formed into an illusion. That means it's impossible for man to understand how He was created or formed in the flesh. This is why man has to be taught how He was created by our Creator and formed in the flesh.
We think we have to be born of the womb of an object ( flesh ) called a mother. Does this mean the mother came first into this world? If so, then how did the mother get pregnant without a male producing the sperm to impregnate her egg?
Now that you're learning how we were created and formed into illusions that aren't real it's easier to understand how the trees, water, rocks, and bodies of beasts, birds, insects, fish, humans, etc. came into being. Our Creator created invisible vibrations that contain His program called Eternal Life. These vibrations are His language that He uses to form all these illusions with that we observe. Now that you know how our Creator formed these illusions from particles that can only be observed but turn back to waves when not observed, it should be easy for you to understand that our Creator is not limited to the amount of illusions that we will perceive for eternity. Even death is an illusion that we thought was real in this world.
I will share more analogies in the next part of my debate to show you that it's impossible that the objects we observe and the vibrations we know about today are not created without a Creator. They did not come about on their own without a plan by a Creator. There are physicists who are telling people that we're the creator of those vibrations. If that was true, then what kind of equipment did man use to produce these vibrations? If man created all the vibrations, then man had to plan and design each illusion he observes. Doesn't that sound like an impossible thing for man to do? That's because man didn't create any vibrations or design illusions called trees, rocks, water, flesh, etc. Our Creator created and formed everything that we observe, taste, smell, hear, touch and speak about with emotions. All our senses were created and formed to make us believe we're real, too.
God bless you believers who hear the voice of the Lord,
“Our Creator created atheists and Christians for the same reason and that is to build things in this world.”
Why couldn’t he build these on his own?
Neither an atheist or Christian has any physical evidence that our Creator exists. They don't have any physical evidence that they exist, either.
That’s true that there is no evidence for God, I was hoping that you would provide some. I occupy space, I am made of matter, I think, thus I exist.
“I'm not here to prove to atheists or Christians that our Creator exists by using physical evidence because it's impossible.”
I guess you lose this debate then.
“formed make-believe worlds for His created beings to experience because He can.”
Haha, ok. You give this wild statement that an invisible man created everything out of nothing and you explanation for this is “because He can.” Hilarious.
“Since our Creator was able to create us and make us believe we're real, I'm sure He had a great time doing so.”
So your God created humans and the world and gave us these illusions and lies of us existing because he thought it would be just baskets of fun. This God that you continue to try to prove continues to regress in being realistic.
“If you're expecting to see me use hard physical evidence to prove that our Creator exists, then you were believing a lie.”
Wow, this debate gets easier and easier for me the more you talk!
“It's impossible to use hard physical evidence because there's no such thing as matter, or mass.”
That’s a wild assumption, where’s your evidence?
“Man cannot see anything beyond two dimensions but with modern technology that came from our Creator's plan called the beast, we are now beginning to observe beyond ten dimensions.”
It is actually impossible to see anything as a 3 dimensional being except the 2nd and first dimensions. So as 3 dimensional beings it is impossible to see beyond the second dimension, saying that we are observing ten dimensions is completely false.
Also I’m pretty sure that the modern technology that we use day came from the inventors that made it, not God.
If any of the voters don’t understand dimensions visit this link Jhttp://www.geekpause.com...
“use as analogies to teach me exactly how He formed all these visible objects from His creation.”
So how did he explain how he can create everything from nothing?
“A few of them have learned that they are total illusions that aren't real at all. In fact, no object moves.”
Please name the few physicists that share your idea of illusions.
“When visible objects are not being observed, they don't exist as visible objects. They are only invisible waves. This means that all visible objects are illusions that aren't real at all.”
For a while my opponent gives us a lesson on how our eyes see things. All of which is true, and just is a lesson on sight, so nothing to rebut, not an argument. Until here where my opponent says nothing is real. I agree with everything my opponent says about visibility until here.
Then you say that visible objects are illusions, I don’t understand how you come to this wild conclusion, where’s your evidence of this?
“Many people ask questions about what came first in the world we perceive from our own viewpoint. Did the chicken come before the egg or the egg come before the chicken? From a chicken's viewpoint, the chicken was first. That's because an egg cannot observe itself as being an egg. Therefore, it's impossible for a chicken to know whether the chicken was first in this world or an egg.”
Thank you for finally solving this riddle for me!
“That means it's impossible for man to understand how He was created or formed in the flesh.”
I assume you understand, so it is not impossible. This is false.
“Now that you're learning how we were created and formed into illusions that aren't real it's easier to understand how the trees, water, rocks, and bodies of beasts, birds, insects, fish, humans, etc. came into being.”
I did not learn anything here except the answer to that riddle, I do not understand anything else better now either. Your arguments make zero sense.
“Our Creator created invisible vibrations that contain His program called Eternal Life.”
I thought it was called beast?
“Our Creator created and formed everything that we observe, taste, smell, hear, touch and speak about with emotions.”
In this argument I will be attacking God’s omnipotence.
An omnipotent being is all-powerful and is able to do anything. Since an omnipotent being would be able to do anything, not being able to do everything would then make this being lose its omnipotence. If this being is not omnipotent, then it is not a god.
An omnipotent being would be able to do anything, be a married bachelor, wet and dry at the same time, hungry and full. It is impossible to be a married bachelor, since you cannot be a married bachelor, an omnipotent being can’t do anything thus losing omnipotence. God can’t exist, it’s impossible.
Pro even said himself that he has no evidence that God exists, while I have evidence that God doesn’t. The arguments my opponent has stated have been defeated. I look forward to the next round.
There are many Youtube.com videos about this universe being an illusion but you need to be very open-minded when viewing these videos. A physicist named Tom Campbell has many videos and a book ( My Big Toe ) written about the "consciousness", which consists of invisible vibrations that he says is information. This man does not believe in a Creator of this consciousness. He believes each observer creates the consciousness but this means he's contradicting himself. How can an illusion create invisible vibrations that have to exist before any illusion can be formed? Here's a link to Tom Campbell's Youtube website. https://www.youtube.com...
If you're interested, listen to a few of these videos and that of other physicists, cosmologists and meta-physicists explain what they have learned in their lives, particularly videos with titles that contain the words illusion, dream, universe as a hologram, etc. It's interesting to know that many people believe this universe is only an illusion.
It appears my opponent knows nothing about quantum mechanics which is very important knowledge for our Creator to teach us how we were created. Through the study of quantum mechanics, physicists have learned that the objects we observe in this universe are only illusions that are NOT real. These illusions appear to take up space but space itself is only an illusion. Tom Campbell does a good teaching of time, space and matter as being illusions but don't count on him for telling anyone about our Creator who created the "consciousness", which consists of invisible vibrations.
These invisible vibrations are known as the biblical symbolic names such as Christ, Kingdom of God, Son of God, Kingdom of Heaven, Breath of Life, Tree of Life, Holy Spirit, Light of Men, etc. Most Christians will deny this fact because they don't possess the knowledge of God like us saints do to give them understanding of these symbolic names.
Our Creator has used CAD and Photoshop as analogies to show me how space is an illusion. A CAD operator can blow up an architectural plan to see the smallest details of a building an architect designed such as a small screw on a wall. Then he can shrink this plan to a pinpoint on a computer monitor. In other words, the plan itself doesn't take up any space at all when stored as information. As soon as this information is processed through a computer processor and observed through a CAD program, then space between lines can be observed, but only if it's blown up to a sizeable plan to see space between the lines.
What we observe in the sky on a cloudless night without the moon are white specks ( stars ) with black space between them. If the night sky could be shrunk down to the size of an atomic element as in a CAD program, it would be impossible for man to know whether it was an atomic element or the night sky.
Another analogy that our Creator used to teach me how He created us was by using the computer simulation program called, "The Sims". All the characters, their life stories and the program to operate them that you observe on a computer monitor as The Sims game is being played came from the information on the CD-ROM that was placed in the CD-ROM drive. In a similar way, our bodies, other objects that make up the universe and our Creator's program called Eternal Life that causes everything to give us life experiences came from information in the form of invisible vibrations, which is our Creator's computing language.
I could go on and on with analogies to help you understand how we were created by our Creator but this debate is about showing physical evidence to support my claim that our Creator exists. My testimonies of how we were created should be enough evidence to prove that there is a Creator but since my opponent doesn't believe there is a Creator, it's useless information to him. However, every testimony that I share in this forum helps God's chosen believers understand more and more about who they are and how they were created. This means I could care less if I lose the debate. What is important is that I keep testifying to the knowledge of God until I am killed by people who don't understand my testimonies. Then I won't be around to testify anymore. This will end the 1,000 year reign of Christ that is written about in the book of Revelation.
Here are a few written testimonies that I have posted in this forum. If you read and listen to my videos in these posts, you will realize that I have a lot of knowledge that isn't available in the books of this world. That's because I was taught everything I know directly from the mind ( consciousness ) of our Creator. My created existence is the mind of God.
End of Age
Life after death video;
What is a sinner;
The gospel of Brad;
Gospel, Voice of the Lord and Word of the Lord
If my opponent wins this debate, he should by humble and thank all his friends who support him. It's obvious he needs all the support he can get because he surely doesn't have any knowledge to understand what I'm sharing in this debate or anywhere else I testify to my created existence.
“My opponent made a rule that I was to use physical evidence that our Creator exists but He didn't know I wasn't a Christian who believes this world is real.”
So you think since you’re not a Christian you are exempt from all rules?
“It appears my opponent knows nothing about quantum mechanics which is very important knowledge for our Creator to teach us how we were created. Through the study of quantum mechanics, physicists have learned that the objects we observe in this universe are only illusions that are NOT real.”
Quantum Mechanics is the study of extremely small particles and that they don’t act the same as other objects. They apply to different laws of physics. It seems you are the one who knows nothing.
“If my opponent wins this debate, he should by humble and thank all his friends who support him. It's obvious he needs all the support he can get because he surely doesn't have any knowledge to understand what I'm sharing in this debate or anywhere else I testify to my created existence.”
I would like to officially thank all of my friends who support me.
(I wish there were more arguments so I could do a longer rebuttal.)
As I look through my opponent’s debates, he does not rebut any of my arguments. My opponent does not provide any arguments for God either, he is set on the goal of convincing us all of how we don’t exist through the voice that talks to him in his head. I look forward to the end of this debate, thank you!
Ps (If all you want to do is preach about God then stick to the forum section, don’t actually debate because in a debate you have to try to win.)
Since I know that it's impossible to win an argument like this one with physical evidence, I am sharing information about how God uses us saints to testify to His knowledge. He's the only one who can teach the future since He's the Creator of the past, present and future. He's the only one who created everything so He's the only one who can teach us how He created everything.
My opponent had nothing to share in this forum to prove that God doesn't exist other than some simple logic written in words. This is NOT physical evidence. So not only did he go against his own rules, he didn't have any knowledge to prove that God doesn't exist. At least I'm sharing knowledge about how God created everything and how He teaches us this knowledge.
My opponent doesn't understand anything about quantum mechanics other than posting an address to a website. Even I can refer people to a website. That isn't hard at all. It's much harder to use photography, cinema, microscopes, CAD and Photoshop programs, computer binary code, visions, scientific theories, etc. and write or speak analogies with these things to teach God's chosen believers how we were created.
The people ( physicists, cosmologists, etc. ) who study quantum mechanics, still have no idea how we were created. They only have theories, which they get from using mathematics and experimentation to try disprove what they are observing.
For example; Physicists thought atomic elements were the smallest building blocks that were used to put together a body of a man. In order to prove that atomic elements were not the smallest building block, they had to use experimentation and mathematics to discover that they were NOT the smallest building block. This proof that the atomic element was NOT the smallest building block is called a theory. The reason they call it a theory is because they still have questions of what is the smallest building block besides the proton, neutron and electrons that they finally proved to exist with mathematics and experimentation. Once they discovered the proton, neutron and electrons of an atomic element, they still had more questions about them being the smallest building blocks. With every question that physicists have, they end up proving that there are more particles besides the proton, neutron and electrons with their mathematics and experimentations.
Now the physicists have a problem they can't solve with mathematics. They have discovered that these particles they once thought were solid matter that could be measured with mathematics, cannot be measured at all with predictable results. Through the slit test experiments they have performed over and over the past 100 years along with other tests they use to prove that what they observe can't answer their questions of what is the smallest building block, they now know that those particles are not necessarily particles with solid matter. They turn to waves when not measured or observed.
Mathematics can no longer be used to measure these particles because the particles become waves that doesn't contain solid matter. Instead of admitting that everything is an illusion, the physicists are using mathematics and experimentation to predict the probable areas that the particles will be observed at. They now know that the bigger the object they observe, the more predictability they have of observing particles. The smaller the object, the less predictable they will be observed. This means it's easier for us to observe bigger objects than smaller ones. Duh !!!!
It would be much easier for them if they admitted that the objects we observe are only illusions that aren't real. The problem they have with admitting this fact is that they would have a hard time keeping their jobs for people who don't understand what they observe in this universe. Can you imagine a physicist who studies quantum mechanics and believes in the dimension ( string theory ) which is all vibrational telling the president of the U.S. and the public that we're nothing but an illusion? They would be laughed at while being fired from their jobs.
Only a few scientists who understand the string theory ( the dimension that consists of nothing but vibrations ) are admitting that everything we observe is an illusion. These rare people are NOT working for entities that pay them a salary. They are on their own and have to be supported by writing books and public speaking engagements, hoping to make enough money to live on.
We saints totally understand what these brave scientists are going through.
God bless you chosen believers who hear the Truth,
|Agreed with before the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Agreed with after the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Who had better conduct:||-||-||1 point|
|Had better spelling and grammar:||-||-||1 point|
|Made more convincing arguments:||-||-||3 points|
|Used the most reliable sources:||-||-||2 points|
|Total points awarded:||3||0|
|Agreed with before the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Agreed with after the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Who had better conduct:||-||-||1 point|
|Had better spelling and grammar:||-||-||1 point|
|Made more convincing arguments:||-||-||3 points|
|Used the most reliable sources:||-||-||2 points|
|Total points awarded:||6||0|