The Instigator
Mr.Infidel
Pro (for)
Winning
43 Points
The Contender
Crypto247
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The Existence of God is Improbable

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 9 votes the winner is...
Mr.Infidel
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/19/2011 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,541 times Debate No: 18868
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (26)
Votes (9)

 

Mr.Infidel

Pro

Resolution

The Existence of God is improbable (<50% chance).

The opponents of the debate, and what positions they will argue.

I am affirmative, meaning that it will be my burden to prove that it is improbable (<50% chance) that God exists.

The scope of the debate.

To prove the probability of the existence of God.

The length of the debate, in number of rounds.

There will be 4 rounds. First round is acceptance only.

The maximum length of each statement.

8000 Characters

The time limit between statements.


72 hours (3 days).

The starting date of the debate.

As soon as possible.

Burden of Proof

The burden of proof is shared.

____________________________

Voters, please read this debate before voting, do not vote based on your biased opinion.



The term "God" will be defined broadly as to include the general attributes (ie: omnipotence, omniscience) commonly associated with Judeo-Christian monotheism. This definition primarily concerns general revelation, and hence special doctrines such as the incarnation and Trinity are not relevant to this debate. "Probable" will be defined as being more likely than not.

Crypto247

Con

Ok I accept.

in my opinon god is real. why do i say that you ask? it is best because it is in the bible. If it's in the bible it is true and real. I have proof.
Debate Round No. 1
Mr.Infidel

Pro

Thank you for accepting this debate. I look forward to a good one.

1) Presupposition of Atheism

In my opening argument, I wish to prove that atheism/non-belief is justified. This is through an argument known as the presupposition of atheism. Atheism/Agnosticism is perfectly justified through the fact that the existence of God is an extraordinary claim, hence in the absence of extraordinary evidence the saying that God exists may be regarded as false.
  1. If a claim is extraordinary, then in the absence of extraordinarily strong evidence in its favor, the claim may be considered false.
  2. The claim that God exists is an extraordinary claim.
  3. Therefore, in the absence of extraordinarily strong evidence in its favor, the claim that a god exists may be considered false.
  4. There is no extraordinarily strong evidence in its favor.
  5. Therefore, the claim that god exists may be considered false.

This argument is often known as “Extraordinary claims means extraordinary evidence.” To clear everything up, I will define an “extraordinary claim” as the following:

Extraordinary claim: A claim that contradicts the accepted physical laws or our common sense, everyday experiences in the world.

Fact: Extraordinary claims vary in their degree of extraordinariness. For example, allow me to provide three statements:

  1. I ate a PB&J for lunch.
  2. I won $1,000,000 in the lottery.
  3. I rode a unicorn through the forest last night and saw the tooth fairy.

Statement 1 is the least extraordinary of the three. It would not contradict the laws of common sense, nor would it contradict our physical experiences. Therefore, little evidence is required for a (rational) person to believe the statement.

Statement 2 is even more extraordinary because most people do not win the lotto. This claim contradicts our laws of common sense as most people do not win the lotto. It also contradicts our personal experiences as most people have not won the lotto. However, we know that people do win the lotto, so if you see my ticket matches up with the numbers in the newspaper or on the news, then it is perfectly normal to accept it as truth.

The third one, on the other hand, is extremely extraordinary and highly unlikely. If you wanted to believe that latter claim, you would have to change your beliefs about:

  1. The reporting of history.
  2. The study of zoology.
  3. The method of exploring the earth, etc.

Therefore, it is most rational to reject the account of the third statement as false, unless quite a bit of evidence was to be presented.

The claim that god exists is an extraordinary claim of the highest degree of extraordinariness. The claim is about a being who is not only different from all other creatures on earth, but also what we know about the universe. God is purportedly to be a being that is unfathomable and perfect in every manner—far different than anything on earth! So, is there strong evidence for the existence of God? As of now, I have not seen any strong evidence for God. There have been many Theists, such as Blaise Pascal that did not believe that there was enough evidence to compellingly demonstrate God’s existence. Dr. James Dobson states, “[F]aith ranks at the top of God’s system of priorities…This determination to believe when the proof is not provided and when the questions are not answered is central to our relationship with the Lord. He will never do anything to destroy the need for faith.” (When God Doesn’t Make Sense, pp. 17-18.)

Hence, the absence of extraordinary evidence for God’s existence, one is justified in believing that a being does not exist. Throughout my philosophical research and debate, I am left empty handed. Therefore, I believe I am justified for rejecting the belief in an existence of an extraordinary belief.

On a final note, this approach justifies me rejecting, not just the God I defined, but also other gods that may be presented to me.

While one may see this as an appeal to ignorance, I do not believe that it is. I believe that this appeal proves that it is rational to say that there is (probably) no God.

2) Incoherent Attributes

  1. Any being with contradictory properties cannot exist. [Premise]
  2. God is a being with contradictory properties. [Premise]
  3. Therefore, God does not exist. [Conclusion]

It is possible that a being with unusual powers or characteristics may exist, but a being with contradictory features cannot exist. When I state that a being’s attributes are “incoherent,” I mean much more than the attributes of that being are strange or mysterious, but that they are contradictory. For example, we know that the Invisible Pink Unicorn (blessed be her holy hooves) cannot exist as it is impossible to be both invisible and pink.

There are numerous contradictory properties that are ascribed to traditional theism; however, the tradition is incoherent.

a) Omniscience v. Omnibenevolence: Knowing pleasure in sin

A human terrorist: Can know by direct acquaintance the experience of satisfaction derived from unjustly killing a human being.

God: Cannot know this by experience since he cannot sin and is omnibenevolent.

In this case, a human being can know something that god can't know. But god is supposed to be omniscient, so god must know it. But god can't know it. Thus, the syllogism is as followed:

  1. A human being can know what sin is and can take pleasure in this.
  2. God, because he is omnibenevolent, does not know what it is like to take pleasure in this.
  3. God is omniscience (all-knowing).
  4. Because he is all knowing, he must know what it is like to take pleasure in sin.
  5. God cannot sin because he is omnibenevolent.
  6. For God to know what it is like to sin, he must have sinned (necessary truth).
  7. God does not exist.

An omnibenevolent God cannot know by personal experience the pleasure felt by a terrorist at killing large numbers of civilians. There are many other examples of cruelty or torture that can also be used to describe this. When I say that God is omnibenevolent, I mean that he is morally perfect. This precludes God from enjoying suffering or torture.

b) Omniscience v. Omniscience: Making a mistake.

Humans: Can know the experience of finding out he or she made a mistake.
God: Cannot know this as he is supposedly all-powerful and perfect in every manner.

In this case, God cannot know what it is like to make a mistake. Thus the syllogism is as followed:

  1. God is perfect, all-powerful, and all-knowing.
  2. Because God is all knowing, he must know what it is like to make a mistake.
  3. If God knows what it is like to make a mistake, God made a mistake.
  4. God knows what it is like to make a mistake.
  5. Hence, God knowing what it is like to know what it is like to make a mistake makes him not perfect and all-powerful.
  6. Hence, God does not exist.

c) All-knowing v. Omnipotence

Human beings: Know what it is like to learn how to do something.
God: Already knows everything, so he cannot know what it is like to learn or how to do something.

So in this case a human can perform the action of learning, which god cannot, so it would seem that a human can also perform actions that an omnipotent being cannot.

In this case, humans can perform the action of learning, which God cannot, so it would seem that humans can also perform actions that an omnipotent being cannot. Thus the syllogism is as followed:

  1. God is omniscient.
  2. God is and always has been omniscient.
  3. A being’s omniscience entails, among other things, that it has all experiential knowledge.
  4. Having all experiential knowledge entails knowing what it is like to learn.
  5. God knows and has always has known what it is like to learn.
  6. Knowing what it is like to learn entails having learned something.
  7. Having learned something entails that one has gone from a state of ignorance to a state of knowledge.
  8. God has gone from a state of ignorance to a state of knowledge.
  9. There was a time when God was in the state of ignorance.

Bibliography in comments.

Crypto247

Con

God is real just because the bible said no. no disproof on that!
Debate Round No. 2
Mr.Infidel

Pro

CON uses circular reasoning:

1) The bible says god exists.
2) The bible is true.
3) Therefore, god exiss.

Please defend point 2. The Koran says Allah is real, I'm sure you disagree with that. In addition to that, the Vedas says Brahma exists, which you also disagree with. Why is the Bible superior to the other religions?

Please extend my arguments.
Crypto247

Con

Well they never gave any real proof to them. But to be honest I think you lie! Besides most people are christians and that means he is real.
Debate Round No. 3
Mr.Infidel

Pro

That is the argument from popularity, which is a logical fallacy.

My opponent has not debunked ANY of my arguments, nor has he provided evidence that the existence of God is probable. Hence, I urge a strong PRO vote.
Crypto247

Con

Yeah but you know that most atheist voted for Obummer! And obummer is the worst president of all time. He needs to go back to kenya! ANYONE BUT OBAMA IN 2012!
Debate Round No. 4
26 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Mr.Infidel 5 years ago
Mr.Infidel
Duplicate
Posted by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
So either Kohai has another duplicate account or someone stole someone else's argument.

http://www.debate.org...
Posted by Mr.Infidel 5 years ago
Mr.Infidel
I agree, 16kadams.
Posted by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
I agree with con, but he has so little reasoning i hope he never comes back.
Posted by Mr.Infidel 5 years ago
Mr.Infidel
CON is a troll and is now banned.
Posted by Nur-Ab-Sal 5 years ago
Nur-Ab-Sal
I'm pretty sure Con is a troll.
Posted by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
... crypto is the worst debater ever, I agree with him politically, but he needs proof to win. He's dumber then the wino I met at subway.
Posted by Mr.Infidel 5 years ago
Mr.Infidel
Lol @randolph7
Posted by Mr.Infidel 5 years ago
Mr.Infidel
Same. I pretty much destroyed CON.
Posted by drafterman 5 years ago
drafterman
I cannot possibly believe that this was a legitimate debate - on either side.
9 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Vote Placed by cameronl35 5 years ago
cameronl35
Mr.InfidelCrypto247Tied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Pretty self-explanatory...
Vote Placed by jewgirl 5 years ago
jewgirl
Mr.InfidelCrypto247Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Why do I get the feeling that crypto is not real?
Vote Placed by imabench 5 years ago
imabench
Mr.InfidelCrypto247Tied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: vote bomb against crypto, he wont mind since his account was deleted
Vote Placed by Nur-Ab-Sal 5 years ago
Nur-Ab-Sal
Mr.InfidelCrypto247Tied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: This is kind of obvious.
Vote Placed by wiploc 5 years ago
wiploc
Mr.InfidelCrypto247Tied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro offered actual arguments. Con only baited and trolled and changed the subject.
Vote Placed by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
Mr.InfidelCrypto247Tied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: Con wasted time...Pro's arguments were interesting, those one could easily point out that the asset of omniscience could extend to knowing the experiences of making a mistake or being sinful, and so on. But such rebuttals never materialized with Con's responses...Using circular logic (God is real because the bible said so), and argument to popularity/majority, Con apparently tries to fail, and succeeds.
Vote Placed by randolph7 5 years ago
randolph7
Mr.InfidelCrypto247Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Best arguments ever! Not even argumentum ad obama could save this one.
Vote Placed by jm_notguilty 5 years ago
jm_notguilty
Mr.InfidelCrypto247Tied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: All points to PRO since CON disregarded his arguments. OBAMA FOR 2012!
Vote Placed by BlackVoid 5 years ago
BlackVoid
Mr.InfidelCrypto247Tied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Lol