The Existence of God
Debate Rounds (5)
God wants all of your love.
God allows suffering to occur every single day.
God is jealous, God is hateful, and yet he is considered to be the ultimate ideal of perfection. If you believe this is perfection you are either under some sort of influence or you are simply wrong. Most likely the latter. This is the obvious reason of non-existence.
That is all I will say for now, because if you can prove any of what I just said to be wrong then I would LOVE to hear it. Also if you agree with me than please don't respond, cheers.
First, I am upholding Christianity and hence, I am using the Christian Scriptures as my stance.
God wants you to believe in him alone.
God wants all of your love.
These denotes God's worthiness of our everything for by very definition, God is the Creator of all things. He created all things and he created all of it for himself, that is, for his glory ( Colossians 1:16).
Glory- ( Hebrew, 'kabod', weight, importance; Greek, 'doxa', weighty, worthiness).
God allows suffering to occur every single day.
You're totally right. God allows suffering to occur every single day. He's not the source of it. God knows that his plan of creation will eventually lead to chaos through sin but he still continue his plan to create and this is not without a restoration plan ahead of its existence. It means that God has these twofold plan:
1) To rescue from eternal punishment in hell those whom he chosen before creation
2) To restore the post-fall creation into what it has been in the pre-fall creation (.i.e. very good)
"In him we were also chosen,having been predestined according to the plan of God who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.
""And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are"called according to"His"purpose."
Based on this two verses, nothing else happens that is not within the sovereignty of God which either will reveal his nature as HOLY and JUST and not only LOVE.
All of the evil doers will be in hell ( showing God's nature of being JUST)
All those who does good( i.e. Those saved by grace through faith alone in Christ) will be in heaven ( showing God's nature of being HOLY and LOVE).
A 7 yr old child raped and brutally killed by a man. A politician who corrupts his country's collected taxes.A famine in Africa. A child who lies. Etc. All has their due punishment albiet all sins are equal (Romans 6:23, James 2:11).
NOTE: It's impossible for a Christian to continue to sin by virtue of his assurance of salvation. The Bible per se warns of fake Christians.
God is a jealous God means that he wants all attention to be in him. The context where this trait of God was revealed is in Exodus 20 ( in the ten commandments). It says that that God doesn't want people to worship other gods than him.
God is a hateful God. I never read this in Scripture.
Overall, as the Scripture said " many are called but few are chosen". :)
It seems like almost all of the information you are using is from one source. The bible. Now, just to clear things up, this is also the same book that states:
Whoever is captured will be thrust through;
all who are caught will fall by the sword.
Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
their houses will be looted and their wives violated.
See, I will stir up against them the Medes,
who do not care for silver
and have no delight in gold.
Their bows will strike down the young men;
they will have no mercy on infants,
nor will they look with compassion on children.
Leviticus 25:44-46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Deuteronomy 22: 23-24
If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death"the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man"s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.
Of course there are many more allowing the stoning of homosexuals, turning people into pillars of salt, killing the entire planet in a flood because mankind used the free will that God gave them... etc.
You cannot pick and chose parts of the bible to back up your argument, if you are going to use it for a source of Gods word and good judgement then you must say the ENTIRE book is Gods word and good judgement, and if you say that than you are incredibly IMMORAL... and wrong.
God is omni- everything. Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, etc. If God is so perfect... then he knows everything that is going to happen. Everything. From the very first day mankind was 'created' he has known what is going to unfold step by step. So instead of stopping those MILLIONS of babies that aren't born due to issues during childbirth from being born, he lets them start forming in the womb of the woman ANYWAY, even though he KNOWS they will just die horrifically anyway. He knew Hitler would kill million, he knew stalin would kill more, he knew nuclear bombs would threaten the existence of all human life (And possibly animal life). HE LET ALL OF THIS SLIDE. How could a perfect, immoral, just and fair God let any of that be?
Your excuse is probably that the evil will spend all of eternity in hell for their evil acts, but that begs this question. God knew they would commit them before they did, why then wouldn't god just send them to hell before they were born knowing they would be evil anyway and kill people. Instead he let them ALL BE BORN. He allowed them to kill anyway, even though he could have easily stopped it. If there is a God, then I say he is the most evil, unjust, unfair, malicious being to ever have been discovered. He is evil in its true form. The devil killed between 2-10 people throughout the bible, God nearly wiped out the entire planet.
This is irrelevant. What is relevant is that there is absolutely zero evidence for Gods existence. Show me concrete, empirical evidence for Gods existence and I will admit that you might have a slim chance of winning this debate.
But again, thank you for taking the time to converse with me, and I appreciate it.
1))The God elucidated in the Bible doesn't act like those mythological gods in the ancient world. The God of the Scriptures is Just in all his ways.
2))Those infanticides are confined within the just judgement of God against their wickedness just as it is in the deluge.
3))Homosexuals are stoned to death at those age-old times within the religio-cultural premises of Israel which is not bounding. In the New Testament per se.
I myself I am a transgender person. I believe that I'm a female. I never got attracted with girls. ( Praise God,I am not living in the Old Testament age lol ). Well, no one 'accepts' me even in the church today but i still insists to be with them because they still 'receive' me ,though. :)
There is a tendency to look at slavery as something of the past. But it is estimated that there are today over 27 million people in the world who are subject to slavery: forced labor, sex trade, inheritable property, etc. As those who have been redeemed from the slavery of sin, followers of Jesus Christ should be the foremost champions of ending human slavery in the world today. The question arises, though, why does the Bible not speak out strongly against slavery? Why does the Bible, in fact, seem to support the practice of human slavery?
The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15;Ephesians 6:9;Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.
The slavery of the past few centuries was often based exclusively on skin color. In the United States, many black people were considered slaves because of their nationality; many slave owners truly believed black people to be inferior human beings. The Bible most definitely does condemn race-based slavery. Consider the slavery the Hebrews experienced when they were in Egypt. The Hebrews were slaves, not by choice, but because they were Hebrews (Exodus 13:14). The plagues God poured out on Egypt demonstrate how God feels about racial slavery (Exodus 7-11). So, yes, the Bible does condemn some forms of slavery. At the same time, the Bible does seem to allow for other forms. The key issue is that the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries.
In addition, both the Old and New Testaments condemn the practice of "man-stealing" which is what happened in Africa in the 19th century. Africans were rounded up by slave-hunters, who sold them to slave-traders, who brought them to the New World to work on plantations and farms. This practice is abhorrent to God. In fact, the penalty for such a crime in the Mosaic Law was death: "Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death" (Exodus 21:16). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are "ungodly and sinful" and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8-10).
Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society. The Bible often approaches issues from the inside out. If a person experiences the love, mercy, and grace of God by receiving His salvation, God will reform his soul, changing the way he thinks and acts. A person who has experienced God"s gift of salvation and freedom from the slavery of sin, as God reforms his soul, will realize that enslaving another human being is wrong. A person who has truly experienced God"s grace will in turn be gracious towards others. That would be the Bible"s prescription for ending slavery.
4))God is good. His acts are good. His will is always good. So, what's good about allowing evil people to exist?
God still caused to exist those evil doers to show his justice and holiness to his people.Nothing more, nothing less.
God doesn't send anyone to hell. People does it themselves. God is love but he's not only that for he is also Just. :)
5))And one thing... If you believe that the God of the Bible is non-existent. Then may I ask, what is right and wrong for you?
Also, may you answer my questions succinctly?
a) Why do humans believe in God? Does evolution has to do with this?
b) What does "God" mean for Atheists?
c)How do we know for certain that God( of the Bible) doesn't exists? If evil, it's not atheistic because it's compatible within the framework of God's plan for eternity ( Eph. 1:11,Rom.8:28). If absence of physical evidence, it's not a proof for atheism either because the absence of physical evidence is not a evidence of God's absence( i.e. non-existence).
1.) Why do humans believe in God? Does evolution have anything to do with this?
Human are the most curious animals in the entire animal kingdom. Because of this flaw, mankind is always demanded itself to acquire all the possible answers it could. We are also some of the most impatient animals on the planet. Because of this flaw we tend to come to those answers rather quickly, so that instead of having factual answers based on evidence we have guesses based on faith. Faith: The belief in something without any evidence. Humans could not explain why storms happened, they couldn't explain volcanoes and etc. Because of this the gods of the Greeks, and Romans, and Indians were first created. When humanity got a better understanding of why those things happen they put away those childish beliefs. The Christian God is no different whatsoever, mankind cannot YET understand what exactly happens after death or how EXACTLY the universe started (If it did at all) though they are EXTREMELY close to discovering both of these things.
Evolution has everything to do with God. As we evolved we need ways of coping with the fact that death was coming, so we turned to the idea of an afterlife. If there is an afterlife then there is no need to fear death, right? Religion was useful thousands of years ago for bringing humans together into a society, and therefore increasing their chances of survival. So, yes, evolution has everything to do with Religion.
2.) What does God mean to Atheists? This is the easiest one. To me, and to most atheists, God is a more cynical Santa Claus. Your parents raise you your entire life believing in Santa, and you would probably get into fights in school over whether or not he existed with the class bully. This is the same way you argue about God in our eyes. You are arguing a fairy tale that has no evidence, and that your parents fed you like soup from a ladle until you were of age to teach it to your children. Also, most atheist feel as though God is a causeway for all evil to spread. People kill their children and then get away with it by saying "God told me to do it." That isn't an excuse, that is Bulls@#$.
3.) How can I prove that God doesn't exist? (That's the main idea of this question). You are stating that if I can't PROVE without a fraction of a doubt that he doesn't exist then he must exist. To this I say such, can you prove to me that there isn't an invisible unicorn ghost next to you right now? Can you do it? If you can't then surely the unicorn must exist. Of course this is nonsense right? I mean a unicorn! How ridiculous! But a God that is everywhere at every second, a god that worries about what position you have sex in, a God that cares what orientation you are, a God that created light before he created the sun, this is more logical.
If God is perfect, how can he create such imperfection? (we humans, the planet, the universe.) And if you say that perfection means you can do whatever you want then I think you are defining perfection in whichever way you seem best fit for your argument.
That is all for now, thank you again, can't wait to hear back.
Thanks for answering my questions. You are kind.
1)So, curiosity is a flaw according to you. It is curiosity that make people search for answers but this always involves experience. It simply goes hand in hand. Nonetheless, if theism is an evolutionary mechanism for people to survive then what is atheism for?
You said that we're EXTREMELY close to discovering both of these things (i.e. what exactly happens after death or how EXACTLY the universe started). How could you say that we're EXTREMELY close to discovering it?
If there is an afterlife then there is no need to fear death, right? Everyone fears death. Except if you're a fundamentalist who believes in assurance of salvation (in this case, sola fide of Christianity might have been the most advanced and effective cope up strategy ever made by evolution, isn't it?)
2)This is absurd. of course we have evidence for the existence of deity than that of a unicorn myth. The God of the Bible has its veracity on the Scriptures.
Premise 1: The Bible says that only one God exists and that all other gods are false deities (i.e satanic in nature whether it 'appears' good)
Premise 2: The natural world confirms God's existence through everything that was said about him as reality and truth per se.
Conclusion: Being rational creatures, we testify that the God revealed in the Bible does exists according to verifiable and cogent evidence presented in the Bible itself and confirmed by the natural world and reason. Faith fits the facts.
3)God did not create imperfection. He did allow imperfection to exist for his glory (i.e. just trait revealed). How could we show God’s holy and just nature without the existence of any transgression against a certain law?
I'm looking forward about your comment about my rebuttal in round 2. Do you agree or still disgree? Is my argument logical and coherent? :)
Do not use the bible as 'proof' or 'evidence'. It is not logical. God exists because the bible says so is not a viable answer. Almost every other holy book on earth claims to be the word of God, so how can you be sure that your book is right? "Because the bible says it is" THE QURAN SAYS THE SAME THING! These are unfalsifiable claims; meaning that no matter what, no one can prove or disprove it to be true or false. If I were to say that I read a book that told me there was an elephant on the sun that was resistant to fire and needed no oxygen to live, and that I knew this was true because the book told me so, you could never prove me wrong. If you said 'well that just isn't logical at all, we know that's not true' that would be my EXACT answer to the question of a God. There is zero evidence that leads any human being to believe in any God.
Believing in God comes simply from being raised by religious parents, or due to fear in some issue. The fear of death, the fear of the unknown, the fear of knowledge, the lack of knowledge and etc. If you had been raised in India you would be a Hindu, if you were raised in Pakistan or Indonesia you would be believing in Allah, if you were in Greece a thousand years ago you would be believing in Zeus and Poseidon. Where you grow up, and with whom, has everything to do with what you believe in. If we were both raised in Afghanistan, but had access to this website somehow, we would be having this EXACT same argument over Islam. You cannot argue that, because it is fact. You would argue that no matter what Allah is the one true God, and you would probably threaten me over it. You would argue with the same sincerity as you have been for the Christian God.
One last question for you, do you accept evolution? This is important.
Premise 1: The Bible says it.
Premise 2: Evidence proves it.
Conclusion: what the Bible says is true because it's verified by evidence.
2)) This socio-geographical reality on people's theistic stance is in agreement with the testimony of Scripture in Acts 17:24-31 plus in Matthew 28:19 of the Great commision.
3)) Yes. i believe in evolution.
- evolution is descent with modification
- change of genome not of an individual but of a population
Biological evolution is evident in the natural world (e.g. Antibiotic resistance, etc. ).
But i disagree in the phase 2 of evolution and in the common descent theory. I believe that there is common Creator who allowed the micro phase evolution for survival of species in post-fall ( Genesis 3; Romans 8:22).
Atheists told me that microevolution ( i.e. The first phase of biological evolution) will inevitably undergo macroevolution ( i.e. Speciation of an organism dramatically results into a completely different specie than its ancestor.
If the only thing you can do is to use that horrible piece of 'evidence' then I rest my case. The existence of a God is ridiculous, and the belief in one is even more so.
Macro-evolution is most definitely a 'real' thing. This isn't contested by any scientist worth a damn anymore, because every ounce of empirical evidence points straight to it. There are even animals that just over the past hundred years have grown new tails, changed colors completely, grown extra limbs/eyes. Some have even doubled in size! Imagine millions of years, imagine evolution then! No need to imagine it because it's true, but you get the point.
I shall end the debate by saying that there is no God.
If there were a God, and he/she/it were the God of Christianity than I would never worship it. Ever. I'd rather burn in hell with Satan who killed millions less people than God ever did.
Also, if there were a God, he sure as hell would have made a universe more suitable for life than our own.
Thank you for taking the time to debate with me, I truly do appreciate it.
It"s because in our world, every living thing that exists has a cause and the cause is always living not non-living. Hence, belief in God is not ridiculous at all but logical per se.
2)) Science operates on induction. The inductive method entails searching out things in the world and drawing generalized conclusions about those things based on observation. Scientists can only draw conclusions on what they find, not on what they can't find.
Since science, by its very nature, is never capable of proving the non-existence of anything, one can never accurately claim that science has proven God doesn't exist. That's a misuse of the discipline. Such a claim would require omniscience. The only way one can say a thing does not exist is not by using the inductive method, but by using a deductive method, by showing that there's something about the concept itself that is contradictory.
This means, by the way, that all inductive knowledge is contingent. One cannot know anything inductively with absolute certainty. The inductive method gives us knowledge that is only probably true. Science, therefore, cannot be certain about anything in an absolute sense. It can provide a high degree of confidence based on evidence that strongly justifies scientific conclusions, but its method never allows certainty.
3)) The God of Christianity is reasonable per se. His message to mankind is recorded by his people and remains infallible up to date with no contradictions but in all things, fits the reality and facts in our world. It"s veracity is seen in various ways: 1) Inspiration (the cause of infallibility) 2) History (the evidence of its veracity) 3) distinctive holy lives (the force of its veracity). If these are untrue, I would be an Atheist.
Faith fits the facts. The Bible presented the beginning and ending of the universe with its purpose. It means it is not ambiguous about the reality and facts we are in. Throughout these ages its truth is just as clear as in its inception.
To share it to you explicitly I will all-caps the Bible"s entire message:
1. GOD CREATED THE UNIVERSE AND ALL THAT IS IN IT. HE CREATED TWO SENTIENT BEINGS: THE ANGELS AND HUMANS. THE FORMER WAS CREATED FIRST AND THEN SOME DISOBEYS HIS LAW WHILE THE LATTER WAS CREATED ON THE SIX DAY AND ALSO DISOBEYS HIS LAW.
1.1GOD KNEW BEFOREHAND THAT THIS WILL HAPPEN BUT HE STILL CONTINUE TO CREATE BECAUSE OF ONE CLEAR PURPOSE: HIS GLORY.
2. THOSE WHO DISOBEYED (I.E. LUCIFER, 1/3 OF OTHER ANGELS, ADAM AND EVE) WERE EXTERMINATED THEIR FREE WILL TO OBEY AND THAT IS WHY THEY WERE CONDEMNED TO HELL. (IN THIS GOD"S JUSTICE WAS SHOWN)
2.1 GOD KNEW BEFOREHAND THAT NOT ALL ANGELS WILL DISOBEY THAT IS WHY HE STILL CREATED THE ANGELS.
2.2 GOD KNEW BEFOREHAND THAT ADAM AND EVE WILL DISOBEY BUT HE STILL CREATED THEM BECAUSE HE PLANNED BEFOREHAND THEIR CREATION IN HIS SOVEREIGNTY TO PROVIDE SALVATION BY CHOOSING SOME HUMANS TO SAVE BY HIS OWN SON THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT. HENCE, SALVATION FROM HELL AND RECONCILIATION IS DONE BY GOD ALONE ( I.E MONERGISM) NOT WITH MAN"S COOPERATION (I.E. SYNERGISM). ( IN THIS GOD"S GRACE IS SHOWN)
IT WAS THOSE HUMANS CHOSEN TO SALVATION BY GOD BEFORE CREATION THAT CHRIST DIED FOR. ALL OF THEM WILL RECEIVE THIS FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE WITH GOD AND THEY WILL EXPERIENCE GOD"S PRESENCE BOTH IN FAITH AND RATIONALITY, IN DEEDS AND WORDS. ALL OF THESE ARE INEVITABLE. (THE BIBLE WARNS FALSE/FAKE CHRISTIANS. HENCE, ATHEISTS CANNOT GENERALIZE THAT ALL WHO CLAIM TO BE A CHRISTIAN REPRESENTS AUTHENTIC CHRISTIANITY). THERE"S ALWAYS A RULE: FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD (JAMES 2:26). TRUE CHRISTIANS WILL INEVITABLY SHOW THEIR FAITH EXPRESSED IN LOVE THROUGH WORKS. THOSE WHO FAIL WITH THAT ARE CLEARLY NOT PART OF THE CHURCH EVEN THEY CLAIM TO.
NOTE: THE SAVED PEOPLE ON EARTH STILL HAS THE ABILITY TO SIN BECAUSE THEIR FREE WILL TO DISOBEY WASN"T YET EXTERMIONATED BUT THIS IS A FACT: A SAVED PERSON HAS FREE WILL 1]TO DISOBEY (CONSEQUENCE IS NOT CONDEMNATION IN HELL BUT CHASTISEMENT IN ORDER TO CONTINUE TO OBEY ) AND 2] TO OBEY ( CONSEQUENCE IS NOT ETERNAL LIFE OR ENTRANCE TO HEAVEN FOR THEY ALREADY HAVE IT BUT ONLY BLESSINGS PLUS PERSECUTION -- LOL THAT IS WHAT WAS WRITTEN). ALL SAVED PEOPLE WHO DIED ( ON THIS AGE) OR RESURRECTED ( AT CHRIST"S COMING) WILL HAVE THEIR FREE WILL TO DISOBEY EXTERMINATED AND HENCE, BOTH ANGELS AND HUMANS WILL HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD ETERNALLY ( THE REST IN HELL). YES. IT TOOK THIS LONG TO PRODUCE HOLY BEINGS. AUTHENTIC HOLINESS NOT ROBOTICS IN SORT.
"YOU MAY RECEIVE JESUS TODAY AS YOUR ONLY SAVIOR FROM HELL. YOU DON"T NEED TO DO ANYTHING. JUST TRUST HIM ALONE AS YOUR RESCUER FROM HELL AND SIN. HE PROMISES SALVATION FROM HELL AND FROM SIN. IF YOU RECEIVED HIM THEN THIS IS A PROOF THAT YOU WERE ONE OF THE CHOSEN ONES AND HENCE, YOU WILL INEVITABLY DO WHAT HE SAYS. IF YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE HIM, YOU WILL REMAIN IN YOUR STATE OF CONDEMNATION AND IS A PROOF THAT YOU ARE NOT ONE OF THE CHOSEN ONES."
3. THOSE WHO OBEYED (I.E. THE OTHER ANGELS) WERE EXTERMINATED OF THEIR FREE WILL TO DISOBEY AND WERE ELECTED BY GOD TO ETERNAL LIFE WITH HIM BY THEIR CHOICE. (IN THIS GOD"S HOLINESS WAS SHOWN)
4. OVERALL, GOD IS THE "CREATOR" OF ALL GOOD THINGS ( THAT"S OBVIOUS) AND HE ONLY "ALLOWED" EVIL TO EXIST FOR A SINGLE PUPOSE: HIS GLORY. NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS. OF COURSE, ALL HAPPENED BECAUSE OF HIS INHERENT SOVEREIGNITY. INDEED, IF HE"S A GOOD GOD THEN HIS PLANS ARE GOOD TOO AND WE OURSELVES TESTIFIES ABOUT IT IN HIS SCRIPTURE WITH OUR EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEDGE IN EVERY FACTS AND REALITY WE ARE IN. THESE PER SE IS VERY LOGICAL. " Sola Fide, Sola Deo Gloria, sola gratia, sola christus, sola scriptura
Any questions? I"m happy to give an answer.
Btw, you didn"t refuted my arguments at all. Anyway, your welcome and I hope debating with you again on this same subject matter of atheism versus theism. Thank You!
To all our readers, you may freely scrutinize the whole debate so as to judge wisely who"s the winner. Thank You!
No votes have been placed for this debate.
You are not eligible to vote on this debate
This debate has been configured to only allow voters who meet the requirements set by the debaters. This debate either has an Elo score requirement or is to be voted on by a select panel of judges.