The Instigator
SuperiorArsenal
Pro (for)
Winning
4 Points
The Contender
Quinoas
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The Factions/Races of Halo would defeat those of Mass Effect in War

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
SuperiorArsenal
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/19/2013 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,943 times Debate No: 31432
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (1)

 

SuperiorArsenal

Pro

As the topic proclaims, this will be a galactic-scale war between the various races/factions of the Halo and Mass Effect universes. I will be supporting Halo.

The Setting:This will take place in a combined galaxy, where each star systems are still in the same relative position to one another as they would be in their respective universe. For cases where both Halo and Mass Effect have the same system, for example, Sol, there will be one for each, again, in the same relative position that they would have been in their own universe.

The Factions:Each faction/race will be in an undisputed alliance with the other factions of their universe. They will not attempt to attack each other under any circumstances, so the Reapers will not try to harvest the population of Mass Effect factions, while the Flood will not try to assimilate the factions of Halo. In addition, factions that have very little relevant information on them will be excluded, for the most part. For example, Precursors, Leviathans, Protheans, and the ancient Forerunners will not be counted. In the case of the Leviathans and the Forerunners, certain exemptions will be made. The Leviathans that are still alive as of Mass Effect 3 Leviathan DLC will be present, and the Forerunners will still have their structures (Shield worlds, Halo Rings, and such), Sentinels/Drone defense/maintenance units, and Promethean forces. Factions will start off at different time periods to make sure no faction is handicapped through events that may have occurred in their own timeline (wars primarily).
For Halo, the following factions will be represented with their starting point:
The Flood, circa Halo 2
The Covenant, circa Halo:Reach
The Forerunners, circa the end of Halo 4
The UNSC, circa the end of Halo 4

I will also provide one for Mass Effect, though it can be contested.
The Citadel Races (Council races and those with "membership"), Just prior to the Reaper Invasion
Terminus Systems (Mercenary groups, and the like), circa Mass Effect 2
The Batarians, right before the Arrival DLC
The Quarians, circa Mass Effect 2
The Geth, circa Mass Effect 3
The Reapers/Collectors, just prior to the Collector base destruction
The Krogans, post-genophage cure

Feel free to contest those, as well as add any groups that may have been left out (Within reason, there is little known about the Protheans, so they were excluded short of Javik)

First round is acceptance, and the debate will last over the rest of the rounds. I encourage that arguments be extended past the character limit, to make sure that there is a very thorough analysis, and due to the fact that there are many factors to debate. Only official canon is to to be used (Games, novelizations, and other media released by the developers and/or with official acknowledgement of canon by the developers, so no fanfictions and other things of that sort). You may also propose any other rules that you may deem appropriate. This should be done in the first round with acceptance.
Quinoas

Con

Even though it is imposible to truely know who would win because the games you diffrent code so you cannot compare the damages, but I will calleng you base on size, skill, weponary, and strategy.
Debate Round No. 1
SuperiorArsenal

Pro

I thank my opponent Quinoas for accepting this debate. I hope we can have a fun and intellectually stimulating debate.

I’d like to start off by addressing your concerns.

-

“it is imposible to truely know who would win because the games you diffrent code so you cannot compare the damages,”

-

Though your concern about compared damage is valid, in a way, I should inform you that game mechanics are not to be considered as canon. Both Halo and Mass Effect run primarily on the laws and principles of physics as we understand them today, with varied exceptions thanks to them being fictional universes. This means we can determine the “damage” of weapons by looking at their energy, force, momentum, and so on.

===

For any war, production capability is extremely important. You can’t win a war if you don’t have the capacity to build fast enough. In this case, Halo has a major advantage. A shipyard on Mars, during the very end of the war, managed to produce nearly 100 warships within three months. This was a time period where the UNSC had lost hundreds of planets to the Covenant, many of which were outer-colonies that supplied shipyards like the one on Mars with resources. This was on top of the three decades of warfare that have taken their toll on the UNSC’s production capacity. Despite this handicap, they still managed nearly 100 ships in a few months. Since this is now post-Halo 4, where humanity has had four years to recover and grow, and with the fact that multiple shipyards exist, the UNSC should be capable of producing thousands of ships within the same time frame. Another production advantage that the UNSC has is their growing supply of Covenant/Forerunner Huragok (Commonly referred to as “Engineers”). These intelligent creatures, whose only focus is their work, can repair and upgrade ships within a matter of hours. John-117 (The Master Chief) observed an Engineer take apart a car’s engine and proceed to assemble it into various working structures, then returned it to its original form, all in the matter of seconds (Halo: The Fall of Reach). Having multiple of these in any shipyard would vastly increase production rates.

Now, if the Forerunners were at their full capacity, I could go on for pages about the sheer and utterly unimaginable production rates that they have displayed (10,000km diameter ring-world-weapon in a month? Child’s play), but luckily for Mass Effect, the Forerunners are not present in anywhere near full capacity. Unfortunately for Mass Effect, the production rates are still extremely impressive. Onyx is a Forerunner shield world, specifically named the “sharpened shield.” This is probably due to the fact that it is essentially a planet-sized super-weapon made out of trillions upon trillions of Onyx-brand sentinels and contains dimensionally compressed micro-dyson spheres that have diameters approaching two astronomical units (Twice the distance from Earth to the sun). These Onyx sentinels that the “planet” is made out of can combine, theoretically infinite amounts of times, while creating combined shield strength as well as weapon strength, to the point where 49 combined sentinels can demolish Covenant capital ships. They are created at various facilities found across the “planet,” with each facility pumping one out once every six seconds (Halo: Ghosts of Onyx). That means you have a capital-class grade “ship” being produced every 8-9 seconds, with only one factory. Let’s go extreme low-end, shall we? Assuming only two factories exist, that is over 20,000 warship-level combinations every day. Impressive, right? Another interesting concept is that of time-dilated slip-space bubbles that the Forerunners have mastered, and the UNSC has recovered and put to use. On the outside of the bubble (“Real-Time”) a few minutes may have passed, but on the inside of the bubble, days have gone by. Think of all the applications. The UNSC has already put it to use in food production (Halo: The Thursday War), where grains that normally take months to fully grow are made in the time frame of days. It is only a matter of time before they apply this to warship production, meaning that the few months to make nearly 100 ships turns into a few days in “real-time.”

The Covenant have production levels in the same ball-park as the UNSC, albeit faster and on a larger scale. The Covenant utilizes entire planets with the sole purpose of ship production (Halo: Ghosts of Onyx). This affords them impressive ship production levels, especially considering some of the sizes of their ships. Main-line Covenant ships are generally 1km long, or longer, meaning they are not just pumping out dinky little ships, they are pumping out ships that have equal sizes to Mass Effect Dreadnaughts (Mass Effect’s largest , most powerful, and rarest ships). Covenant building-scale is just larger than Mass Effect’s period. The Citadel, an astounding and colossal building achievement, by Mass Effect standards, is only slightly over 40km long. High Charity, the Covenant equivalent to the Citadel, is just over 360km long. See the difference in scale? Even some Covenant warships can reach nearly 30km in length (Example being The Long Night of Solace).

The Flood are an odd case when it comes to production. They don’t produce things like typical factions. They spread, they infect, and they steal what they use. This, by no means, puts them at a disadvantage. The sheer infection rate of the Flood defies the laws of thermodynamics, converting every cell of the human body into Flood Super-Cells in single-digit seconds, which should produce so much energy that the room should spontaneously catch on fire. This extends into their larger scale operations, like infecting and spreading through the city of Voi and its surrounding area in mere minutes from a single Flood-infected ship. It was to the point where the only solution was to bombard the area from orbit to stop the spread of infection (Halo 3). Within hours of landing on High Charity, the 360km or so super-city, the Flood had fully taken over, even covering large parts of the outer-hull in their biomass (Halo 2). When the Flood lands on a planet, and orbital bombardment is not used within minutes, the planet becomes covered in Flood biomass in a few days, a couple weeks if the “locals” are putting up a good fight. This overshadows the production rate of the Reapers by a wide margin, seeing as they had not fully harvested Earth despite holding it in their control for months during Mass Effect 3.

Now let’s take a gander at the production rates of Mass Effect. If one chooses to sacrifice the Arcturus Fleet to save the Destiny Ascension in Mass Effect 1, it is revealed in Mass Effect 3 that in the three year or so time difference, the Systems Alliance had not yet fully made up the ship losses during that battle (And by the visuals of the game itself, there couldn’t have been more than a few dozen losses). The Systems Alliance can’t even produce more ships than the UNSC alone in three months from one shipyard. This hurts the Systems Alliance, as it is one of the most prominent figures in the Mass effect Galaxy with a significant military presence, yet they can’t keep up with a single UNSC shipyard. Even the all-powerful Reapers take weeks, even months to produce a single Sovereign-Class Reaper through the laborious process of harvesting. But you might be saying “Well, the Quarians have a fleet of 50,000 ships, that’s pretty impressive!” While a fleet of that magnitude is impressive, one needs to remember that the Quarians qualify everything from relatively small shuttles to their massive Live-Ships as part of the fleet. Furthermore, most of the Quarian fleet was simply scavenged over the course of 300 years, with no actual ship production really occurring at all, and many of those ships are sub-par to the more “modern” fleets of the Council Races.


===

With this disparity in production scale, Mass Effect just cannot feasibly win.
Quinoas

Con

"As the topic proclaims, this will be a galactic-scale war between the various races/factions of the Halo and Mass Effect universes. I will be supporting Halo."
I was hoping to get Halo but I will find info on "Mass effect 3" although I have never played it I will challenge myself to this debate with you ay the best man win.

"The Setting:This will take place in a combined galaxy, where each star systems are still in the same relative position to one another as they would be in their respective universe. For cases where both Halo and Mass Effect have the same system, for example, Sol, there will be one for each, again, in the same relative position that they would have been in their own universe."
I like that idea and am happy to know my opponent is a logical thinker. That would be a fair scenario I also recommend that we use the combat simulator off of "Deadliest warrior"

And here is a video you should see.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtUfzb7LOcM

I don't know how it is have not seen it but it just fit the theme.
Debate Round No. 2
SuperiorArsenal

Pro

“I was hoping to get Halo but I will find info on "Mass effect 3" although I have never played it I will challenge myself to this debate with you ay the best man win.”

-

This is probably something you should have included in your acceptance, rather than the part of the debate where you should be, well, debating.

===

“scenario I also recommend that we use the combat simulator off of "Deadliest warrior"

-

I’ll have to disagree with you there. “Deadliest Warrior,” while entertaining, is horribly unscientific. Often times, the “better weapon” is the one that makes the biggest boom or the coolest cut, rather than a more efficient weapon, or one that offers more tactical value. On top of this, the “combat simulator” is actually a glorified game engine. It is barely applicable to the combat that is portrayed on the TV show, and much less with two galaxy-spanning franchises duking it out with variables and technology far out of the simulator’s reach.

===

Seeing how you have not posted any actual information for your side, I urge you to take your time with the next round, and use as many characters and extra pages as you deem necessary to present your case (I know I will). My goal is to win, but there is no joy in winning without contest, so I hope you can put together a solid case for your side.

===

Now unto my argument. My points about Halo’s sheer production capacity advantage went completely uncontested. So I will take that as a concession until I’m shown otherwise. Although production capacity is a huge part of war, there are still other variables. Going into any armed conflict, you need to make sure you have solid manpower.

The Flood, in the case of sheer manpower, probably has the largest advantage. This is because Mass Effect’s manpower actually becomes the Flood’s. Their soldiers, their weapons, even their own memories are all things the Flood take from who they are fighting, especially on the large scale. All biological life is subject to infection. Everything from simple plants to intelligent life-forms is equally “edible.” As I explained earlier, the Flood infect extremely fast, on the individual level and on the large-scale. Flood forms are not only gained through “simple” infection though. Flood like the Pure Forms are made especially out of collected biomass, and can be anything the Gravemind wants it to be. Take, for example, the Flood Thrasher found in Halo Wars. In response to heavy Covenant and UNSC armor, this form was made to be resistant to 90mm tank rounds and strong enough to rip through armor on said tanks. The Forerunners, a race so far ahead of anything in Mass Effect in terms of technology that it would be like comparing modern humans to ants, found out the hard way just how dangerous the Flood were. Causing entire solar systems to collapse was not enough to slow them down, and the only feasible option was to cleanse the galaxy of all life. Basically, it is hard to win a war when the people you are fighting used to be your own forces.

The Covenant has impressive scope when it comes to manpower (Alienpower?). Being a combined force of eight or so different species, they have a wide range of tactical adaptability. Not only this, but each race has a significant population. There are 8 billion Elites on their home world, despite most of their population actually serving on warships and in the military. Grunts are so populous that going to war is healthy for their population, seeing as they reproduce extremely quickly. The Covenant commonly deploys infantry and armor in the thousands, in individual battles. In planet-wide conflicts, the Covenant casually throws millions of soldiers into the fight. Millions is more than the population of most colony worlds in Mass Effect. This correlates well with their ship production levels, as they would need not only the supplies to pump out massive amounts of large ships, but the population to fill them as well. Luckily for the Covenant, they not only have numbers, but many of the races within it are massively “superhuman” in capability. Grunts, while short, under equipped, and maltreated, are a fair bit stronger than humans. Jackals are extremely agile, and have extraordinary sensory capabilities (which make them superb snipers). Hunters are massive colonies of intelligent worms that form entire bodies of “thinking muscle” that is so strong that it can support their 10 ton weight and swing around their 2 ton shield with trivial ease. Both Elites and Brutes are extremely strong and extremely fast, as well as being very durable. The Covenant has numbers, adaptability, and the raw physical ability to dominate in ground wars (And, more importantly, space combat, but that is for a later time).

The real trouble with the Forerunners is trying to find something to lead the paragraph with, because there are so many options. Should I point out the Onyx Sentinels, their production capacity, and throw in data on their combat efficiency? Should I mention the vast amount of Von Neumann-esque Prometheans, who can revive themselves, perform tactical teleportation, and carry weapons that can atomize 450kg super soldiers? But what about the regular Sentinels? I wouldn’t want to neglect them, would I? Even though the Forerunners are not here in full, their left-over basic drone forces are still more than capable of waging galactic war. Probably their biggest advantage is just how many there are, and the capacity that their units can function. I’ve already pointed out how fast they can build, so I won’t go on about that again. Instead, I’ll explain their versatility. Sentinels, Sentinel Majors, and Enforcers are solid fighting units. They maintain small-scale tactical maneuverability, but have the benefit of full flight, allowing them to drop the burden of needing additional air support. Prometheans can carry weapons to fit any niche. Small arms to deal with regular infantry, larger weapons like the light rifle and binary rifle to fit longer range engagements against more powerful foes, and the Incineration Cannon, which can demolish heavy vehicles. Combined with watchers and the crawlers created by said watchers, they present a difficult challenge for any ground-war, especially with their regeneration, heavy shielding, and tactical teleportation. Onyx Sentinels are probably the most powerful and adaptable unit. They actively study enemy strategy and adapt on-the-fly. It takes two 102mm HEAT rockets and four 14.5mm APFSDS rounds to take out a single one. A combined pair is nearly invulnerable to what conventional ground forces can deal with. Not only are they extremely durable, but they are extremely powerful. They utilize a beam weapon similar to other sentinels, except much more potent. Single “bursts” are nearly lethal to heavily armored SPARTANs, and can vaporize large rocks. And it only gets more powerful with the more that combine. Need I remind you that a mere 49 is capable of going toe-to-toe with capital ships?

-

At this point, I will link you to the rest of my arguement.

http://www.debate.org...


Good luck to Con in his arguement.

Quinoas

Con

Quinoas forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
SuperiorArsenal

Pro

I am a little disappointed at Quinoas' forfeit in round 3. At this point in the game, I was looking forward to having arguments presented against me, attacks on my own points, and so on. I would go on to elaborate on weapon technology for Halo, their expected performance against Mass Effect defense technology, and most importantly, space combat (Wars on a galactic-scale are almost solely won on space-combat alone, as ground forces are irrelevant when opposition controls all ways in and out and can continuously bomb them from orbit). Seeing as my production capacity arguments, as well as my manpower arguments have gone completely uncontested, I deem moving onto weapon technology a little superfluous (I don't wish to just bury Quinoas to the point where he can't realistically respond).
===
Hopefully, Con can present an actual argument in Round 4, coupled with attempts to rebuttal what I have already discussed.
Quinoas

Con

Lets Restart this argument I was gone for a week and all my debates have been forfieted I appoligize.
Debate Round No. 4
SuperiorArsenal

Pro

Fair enough. When push comes to shove, your life and its circumstances comes before debate. I'll look forward to facing you when you are less distracted.

Additionally, I feel like taking on Internationalist on the same subject, so I encourage you to corroborate with him if you want to.
Quinoas

Con

Quinoas forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Internationalist 3 years ago
Internationalist
SuperiorArsenal I would gladly have a much more thorough debate with you on the same topic once this has finished or such. Message me if you are interested.
Posted by SuperiorArsenal 3 years ago
SuperiorArsenal
Yes, the Reapers are included.
Posted by THEVIRUS 3 years ago
THEVIRUS
Halo all the way
Posted by OberHerr 3 years ago
OberHerr
Would he be able to use the reapers? Cause, I could see them being an excellent counter to the Flood, though I have no idea how they would hold up against the Forerunners.

Forerunners massive production is basically what always makes them win.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Magic8000 3 years ago
Magic8000
SuperiorArsenalQuinoasTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: FF