The Instigator
harrytruman
Con (against)
Winning
2 Points
The Contender
Octavion
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

The Federal Reserve

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
harrytruman
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/17/2016 Category: Economics
Updated: 9 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 405 times Debate No: 86545
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (2)

 

harrytruman

Con

The Federal Reserve Debate:
"Whoever controls the volume of money in our country is absolute master of all industry and commerce and when you realize that the entire system is very easily controlled, one way or another, by a few powerful men at the top, you will not have to be told how periods of inflation and depression originate."
- James A Garfield
Point 1: The constitution and constitutional money:
Article 1 Section 8 Sentence 5 of the constitution clearly states:
"Congress shall have the power; to coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, fix the standard weights and measures."
This meant that congress would issue the money, this is a very straightforward statement that requires no interpretation; that congress, not a central bank, should control the money system.
In the 1700"s, "standard weights and measures" meant the gold standard, the constitution mandates a gold standard.
This put the power over the economy into the hands of the people. Gold or silver certificates were issued based on coin being deposited by people, which meant that certificate issue was based on the peoples decisions and coin supply. Coin supply was controlled by congress who ordered minting, gold/ silver miners provided gold and silver, and congress/ the treasurer were elected by the people, the people also chose which establishment"s to support. This gave 100% of the economic power to the people. The Federal Reserve ended this, it does not back its money by gold or silver so it is not dependent upon miners, it is separate from the government and the board of governors are not elected, which makes them not accountable to the people, and they will bail out any corporations which people choose not to support, preventing companies from shutting down effectively entrenches said corporations, exterminating any chance for new companies to be established. This has effectively eliminated our free market, creating a command economy, or in layman"s terms- communism.
Point 2: The constitution and Federal Power:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."- The tenth amendment.
We went through how the power to issue money is already ensured to congress, and how the Federal Reserve violates this, and how, though the constitution can be amended, the Federal Reserve Act is not an amendment, if its name was "The blab la bla amendment" and got a U32; vote, then sure, it changed the constitution and it is legal.
But now we will move to another way that the Federal Reserve is unconstitutional; in the whole constitution, you will never find a part which allows a central bank, or for the Federal Government to make a central bank. What you will find is some stuff about "the government of the people", and "ensuring the future of our children". So if the constitution does not authorize the Federal Government to make a central bank, even if it was part of the government which it is not, and the tenth amendment says:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
Then the power to create a central bank which can print its own money, outside of the power of congress, is given to "the states respectively, or to the people", this means that the only instance where a central bank is constitutional, is a state central bank like those before the Federal Reserve. This means that "The Texas Bullion Depository" is constitutional, and so is forming your own community currency, but in no way is the Federal Reserve constitutional. Though the constitution allows for amendments, the Federal Reserve Act was not an amendment, it was just an unconstitutional law
The constitution clearly lays itself out as the supreme law of the land, if any law is not in compliance with that; it"s void; it"s not a law. This means that "Legally- there is no Federal Reserve, and the Federal Reserve act is just a piece of paper. It does not mean anything, all it means is that a private army of bankers stole our money system, and the gold which once backed our money.
Point 3: The constitution and Fiat:
Article 1 Section 10 clearly states;
"No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."
There it is right there, "make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts". So the Federal Reserve is issuing fiat money while we have Article 1 Section 8 Sentence 5 saying that CONGRESS "shall have the power; to coin money, regulate the value thereof", and "to fix the standard weights and measures", then we have Article 1 Section 10 saying that NO STATE "shall make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts". The Federal Reserve issues paper, so we can throw out the part of the constitution that says "to COIN money", they regulate the value of our money, not congress, so there goes "regulate the value thereof", and they made their paper "legal tender for all debts public and private", so we can throw out "NO STATE s make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts",. Oh, no, no we cannot- the constitution is the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND!
Point 4: Power and the power of the Federal Reserve:
Power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely
In 1956, during the Korean war, steel mill workers decided to strike, so president Harry S Truman decided to send the US Military, and seize the steel mill, he was obcourse called a communist for infringing the right to property, and for just reasons, because he was in fact infringing the right to property, so the US Supreme court had hearings, and decided:
"A state of national crisis does not give the president a blank check of executive power,"
one spectator saw the seizure as;
"More power than any good man would want, or any bad man should have,"

In 2009, the Federal Reserve said that in the case of an economic crisis, they can implement a martial law of a sort, that they do quite literally have a blank check as to how much money they can print, how much money they can give away, how low they can make interest rates, and how much inflation they can cause.
Yet we see no Supreme Court trials calling them communists even though they are a communist agency considering the type of power they have, and the extent to which they violate our constitution.
Point 5: History and the History of Central Banks:
"There is nothing new under the sun, everything that is has been before and everything that was shall be again."- King Solomn
The first recorded central bank was the bank of England, the Bank of England was created by a group of British bankers who proposed the bill so that the British Government could loan money to finance the Seven Years War. The British crown ended up knee deep in debt, and had to raise extreme and unfair taxes to pay it all back, and this resulted in the revolt of the thirteen colonies.
The second central bank in recorded history was the Bank of North America, the bank issued 1.2 million dollars into our economy, considering that this is early America, and adapted to inflation, this would be a massive amount. Prices doubled, the nation was knee deep in debt; the Bank ruined America. Due to all the economic chaos caused by this bank, congress vetoed a bill to recharter this bank, and it closed down.
Then Alexander Hamilton formed "The First Bank of the United States", in 1807, our economy fell apart as a result of over printing.
And yet, we attempted this same system by which we sell shares in our nation"s economy through a central bank; we founded the Second Bank of the United States, but in 1832 President Jackson vetoed a bill to recharter the bank with the reasonable concern of such an establishment's power over elections by the money system, he was shot at but not hit in 1835. In 1837 we suffered the backlash of all the banks printing with yet another recession.
Later we again attempted this system, we created the Federal Reserve. In the booming 20"s the Federal Reserve implemented loose monetary policy, causing low interest rates and a surplus of money, causing inflation which in turn caused stock prices to rise, which caused people to invest in stocks in hopes of them being worth more later, causing a bubble. The Federal Reserve implemented strict monetary policy, causing people to be unable to pay their loans, causing bank runs, causing the great depression. The same happened in 2009, the only difference is that people invested in houses rather than stocks.
In 2009, a series of transactions occurred, adding up to a grand total of 9 Trillion Dollars, this is no crazy conspiracy theory, and this is solid fact. There was in fact a senate hearing to asses this, the Inspector General, the person who is supposed to oversee all the Federal Reserve"s actions had no clue what happened. Then the Federal Reserve, six years after, thought that we would be so dumb as to believe that it was a bail out. There is only 9.36 trillion dollars in our economy, if this was a bail out, we would have 18.36 trillion in our economy. I don"t know what happened to it obviously, I don"t know if the Federal Reserve pocketed it, or if Alan Greenspan had a big gambling debt and was threatened with his kneecaps.
Octavion

Pro

Turning to Article 1, Section 8, the Congress shall have the right to "coin money and regulate the value thereof". A very narrow interpretation of this would result in the argument made by my opponent, that only congress can print money. However, this argument would not only make the Federal Reserve unconstitutional, but also the Mint, and even the Treasury department as it, not the congress, designs bills through the bureau of engraving and printing. As well, "standard weight and measurements"does not reverence the gold standard but the unit of measurements used (imperial, metric, etc.) In addition, it was not the Federal Reserve that got rid of the gold standard, that was Richard Nixon. The Federal Reserve operated with the gold standard for years, and had done so with great successes. However, extraordinary spending on social programs resulted in a massive amount of money that was printed which forced Nixon to remove the US from the Gold Standard. This massive rise in the money supply was not the fault of an independent federal reserve, but of politicians, who concern themselves primarily with controlling unemployment at the cost of sky high inflation. When Paul Volcker raised rates sharply in the 1980's, he drew fire from many different directions, but he got inflation under control. If it had been left to congress, sky high inflation would have lasted for decades. The Federal Reserve is perhaps the most misunderstood organ of our governments vast and complex bureaucracy, but also one of the most important. The existence of the Federal Reserve has safeguarded American, and indeed global finance, for over a century. Before the Federal Reserve, there existed many different types of fiat currency, with nearly every bank printing its own money which would experience rapid fluctuations in the value of money. This resulted in an unstable market where panics resulted in the frequent loss of massive sums of money, and as there was no "US Dollar" as there is now, no currency held value everywhere. A dollar from the Second Bank of Omaha could be wort half as much in Kansas City, and be worthless when you got to Chicago, solely because the person you were giving the currency to would never travel to Omaha to cash in. This system not only allowed for rampant
fraud, but also stunted growth in the economy for years. It was not until after the civil war, with a more centralized banking system, did the United States start on the road to becoming an industrial power.The Federal Reserve has helped to save global markets time and time again, and has helped to create a stable and growing global economy. Only under the Federal Reserev system would America rise to its place of economic power, and only under the Federal Resreve would the U.S. dollar still hold value after all that has been done to it by Washington politicians and there extraordinary spending policies.
Debate Round No. 1
harrytruman

Con

First and foremost, the US mint is controlled by congress, it does not act without congresses approval, there is no one even in charge of the mint except congress, the mint is just a branch of congress set up to do this coining money task. the US Treasury does not issue money anymore, and when it did, it wasn't actually issuing money, that was congress who coined gold and silver coin, the US Treasury just kept this gold and silver on deposit and issued a claim check on them. They were not issuing money, they were issuing claim checks on money, and the US Treasury didn't even control their issue, they couldn't issue any if there was no gold or silver being deposited, and they had to issue them when it was deposited.
Secondly, "Standard weights and measures" means gold standard and the exchange of gold or silver coin for certificates and back. If you were to read "The Wealth of Nations," you would know this. Because in chapter 5 the amount of gold or silver in coin is referred to as "the standard weights and measures," this was a misinterpretation to get people like you to think that the constitution does not mandate a gold standard.
Thirdly, I know very well that Richard Nixon ended the gold standard, and I know exactly why, and if you think about it, this is the feds fault, it did not have to print all that money for the government, it could have told them no, and they would have never done it. And on top of it all, the fed could have continued to back the money.
Thirdly, many different currencies is not a bad thing, it's called competition, whoever provides the most stable currency is the one who's currency is the most accepted and the biggest, this will cause the US Dollar to gradually become more and more stable over time. Also, the recession in 1907 was because J P Morgan told everyone there would be a recession, so they withdrew their money from the bank, and that caused a recession. This isn't a conspiracy theory, if you watched "the men who built america," you would know this, it's a historic fact.
Lastly, if the money was left to the gold and silver standard and these competing currencies, the politicians would not matter, it wouldn't be left to them.
Octavion

Pro

Octavion forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
harrytruman

Con

Harry Truman wins by knockout!
Octavion

Pro

Octavion forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
harrytruman

Con

Seriously? You people don't even try to debate me!
Octavion

Pro

I have experienced some unforeseen difficulties recently and am not able to engage in a debate but have enjoyed our brief exchange.
Debate Round No. 4
harrytruman

Con

How convenient.
Octavion

Pro

Octavion forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Briannj17 9 months ago
Briannj17
Holy molly! Use some headings or something. Looks like one big block of text.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by fire_wings 9 months ago
fire_wings
harrytrumanOctavionTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture
Vote Placed by U.n 9 months ago
U.n
harrytrumanOctavionTied
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Reasons for voting decision: forfeiture