The Instigator
TUF
Pro (for)
Winning
9 Points
The Contender
bossyburrito
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

The Game "Halo Reach" Exceeds the game "Halo 3" In quality

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
TUF
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/9/2012 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,814 times Debate No: 24192
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (16)
Votes (3)

 

TUF

Pro

I requested this debate for my opponent and he accepted on my profile, thus I am starting this debate.


*****FRAMEWORK/RULES*****

1. First round will be for for acceptance.

2. This debate will be argued on our own opinions, sources, and arguments, rather than statistics on whether other people specifically like either or game, etc.

3. This debate will be judged the winner, by the debater who has proceeded to make the best arguments. S/G points, conduct, and Sources will all be awarded as normal.

4. Both debaters will remain polite and cordial throughout this debate.

5. A forfeit conducts in the automatic loss of a debate.



I will present my case in round 2.
bossyburrito

Con

I accept. I assume Quality shall be defined as "character with respect to fineness, or grade of excellence" [1]

[1] http://dictionary.reference.com...
Debate Round No. 1
TUF

Pro

Thankyou, BossyBurrito, for accepting this debate.

Without further ado, let our mighty clash of words begin!

I would like to begin by defining a few key terms that I feel are essential to this debate, and will help further our viewers understanding of arguments, and sequences through this debate.

****DEFINITIONS****

Halo Reach: Halo: Reach is a first-person shooter video game set in the Halo universe and direct prequel to Halo: Combat Evolved, depicting the Fall of Reach.

http://halo.wikia.com...

Exceeds: to go beyond in quantity, degree, rate, etc.: to exceed thespeed limit.

http://dictionary.reference.com...

Halo 3: Halo 3 is a first-person shooter video game. It is based on the fictional events and settings in the Halo universe at the end of the Halo trilogy.

http://halo.wikia.com...

Quality: an essential or distinctive characteristic, property, or attribute.

http://dictionary.reference.com...

Given that the definition of quality I am using is from the same source as my opponents, I feel that it is okay to use the one specified as above. While all the definitions essentially mean the same thing, I feel the one provided above specifically qualifies to this debate wit ha significant grade of purpose.

The reason I choose to bring this up is because of a few choice words used in defining the word. My opponents definitions uses "grade of excellence" which is to determine whether the object under criticism has or simply doesn't have, the quality grade of excellence. The difference being in the definition I provided, the phrase "an essential or distinctive characteristic" meaning, that something can still have quality, while not necessarily being measured up to the same quality standards as perhaps another object. Basically the definition is which I provide allows both items to be of quality, but is specifically defining that item through that special characteristic(s).

This is what I hope to display to my viewers throughout this debate, that both items can contain quality, though one item may be a little bit more special, for the reasons I am about to specify.

Without Further ado, Let us begin.

****MY CASE****

C1: GAMEPLAY

Throughout each of my contentions, I will attempt to display certain aspects at a time, and prove why their value (quality) is superior (exceeding) to that of halo 3's. I would first like to start out with the game play aspect of the video game.

Game play: The plot of a computer or video game or the way it is played.

http://dictionary.reference.com...

SUB A: Weapons.

I am bringing up this point first, because on my profile a few days ago, my opponent noted to me several interesting things that he noticed were "Detrimental" about the game halo reach. The first was about the amount of weapons having decreased in this game.
Well I knew off the bat that this assertion was not true, however, I felt like doing a little research just for the fun of it.

Here were my results.

Halo 3 Weapons:

1. Beam Rifle
2. Covenant Carbine
3.
Energy Sword
4.
Fuel Rod Gun
5. Needler
6.
Plasma Pistol
7. Plasma Rifle
8. Plasma Cannon
9. Brute Shot
10.
Gravity Hammer
11. Mauler
12. Spiker
13. Assault Rifle
14. Battle Rifle
15.
Flamethrower
16. Machine Gun Turret
17. Magnum
18. Missile Pod
19. Rocket Launcher
20.
Shotgun
21. SMG
22.
Sniper Rifle
23.
Spartan Laser
24. Firebomb
25.
Frag Grenade
26. Plasma Grenade
27. Spike Grenade
28. Sentinel beam

http://halowiki.net...

We see we Have 28 usable weapons throughout the campaign of halo 3. Now let's check out Halo Reach.

Halo Reach weapons:
1. AIE-486H Heavy Machine gun
2. Anti-Vehicle Shade
3. Assault cannon
4. Combat knife
5. Energy dagger
6. H-165 FOM Target Locator
7. M1024 ASW/AC 30mm ALA Cannon
8. M247H Heavy Machine Gun
9. M319 Individual Grenade Launcher
10. M392 Designated Marksman Rifle
11. M41 Light Anti-Aircraft Gun
12. M41 Surface-to-Surface Rocket
13. Medium Anti-Vehicle/Assault Weapon
14. M45 Tactical Shotgun
15. M6 Grindell/Galilean Nonlinear Rifle
16. M6 Series
17. M6G Personal Defense Weapon System
18. M71 Anti-Aircraft Gun
19. M8 Automated Defense System
20. M9 High-Explosive Dual-Purpose grenade
21. MA37 Individual Combat Weapon System
22. MG460 Automatic Grenade Launcher
23. Magnetic Accelerator Cannon
24. Mark 2488 Magnetic Accelerator Cannon
25. Medusa Missile
26. Plasma mortar
27. Sniper Rifle System 99 Anti-Matériel
28. Type-1 Antipersonnel grenade
29. Type-1 Energy Weapon/Sword
30. Type-2 Energy Weapon/Hammer
31. Type-25 Carbine
32. Type-25 Directed Energy Pistol
33. Type-25 Directed Energy Rifle
34. Type-31 Rifle
35. Type-33 Guided Munitions Launcher
36. Type-33 Light Anti-Armor Weapon
37. Type-38 Anti-Aircraft Cannon
38. Type-50 Directed Energy Rifle/Heavy
39. Type-51 Directed Energy Rifle/Improved
40. Type-52 Directed Energy Support Weapon
41. Type-52 Guided Munitions Launcher/Explosive
42. Type-52 Special Applications Rifle


http://halo.wikia.com...


As You can see in Halo Reach there are nearly twice the amount of allotted weapons in the game.
There are also more vehicles, and other playing inhabitations, however, if sources and lists are needed for those, I will respond with them later to save character space. The purpose of this argument is to show that halo reach offers a vast plethora of options for the players to expand their playing ability with in which they didn't have in the halo 3 game.

SUB B: Multiplayer mode.

I feel this is an important category to bring up, as this is another one of the most popular features of all the halo sagas; the online multi-player experience.

Reach contains a lot of what the halo 3 game had in the multi-player had, except additionally a bit more.
Most of the popular concepts; IE Forge, capture the flag, team slayer, team swat, rumble pit, lone wolves, are all included in the new game as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

In addition to this, there are also Several new maps including but not limited too:

Boardwalk, Boneyard, Countdown, Powerhouse, Reflection, Spire, Sword Base, Zealot, The Cage, Pinnacle, Asylum, Hemorrhage, and Paradiso.

http://www.gamesradar.com...

These maps are well structured to provide a particularly fun player environment. With the addition of the maps and the new features, that it contains, each of these qualities far exceed those of halo 3's. Also we cannot forget about the special player apps including: holograms, Invisibility, energy shielding, limited power blocking, etc.
None of these fun additions are included in the Halo 3 game as a frequent RB ability.

C2: STORYLINE

Not only is the game superior in it's gameplay, but it also has amazing graphics, fun cut scenes, and an awesome story line to play by. It goes beyond the normal master chief and cortana, and explains the history of the game, and how the humans took a turn for the worst and got to the position they were in on halo 1.

"Halo: Reach takes place in late in the year 2552, during theCovenant invasion of the Human colony world Reach, which serves as the main military center of the UNSC. The game follows Noble Team, a six-man special operations unit of oneSPARTAN-II and five SPARTAN-III commandos. The player assumes the role of the team's latest member, SPARTAN-B312or "Noble Six" and will be defending Reach from its ultimate downfall at the hands of the Covenant forces.

Over the course of the campaign, the players will visit various locales on and above planet Reach which includes remote civilian homesteads, high-tech ONI facilities such as Sword Base, the metropolitan city of New Alexandria, as well as a segment of space combat in a Sabre fighter. The player will also encounter indigenous creatures such as the Moa and theGúta.

http://halo.wikia.com...


****CONCLUSION****

I conclude by saying that I have provided plenty of evidence showing that reach is superior to that of halo 3. I urge the voters to vote Pro.
Thankyou.

bossyburrito

Con

Weapons & Vehicles

We see what appears to be lists of weapons from both games. HOWEVER, this list is not accurate.
The Assault cannon was never used.

The combat knive and energy daggers are passive weapons that only hold any purpose in a designated assasination cutscene.

The H-165 FOM Target Locator only appears in the Sword Base mission for a limited amount of time.

The M1024 ASW/AC 30mm ALA Cannon was mounted on starfighters...

The M6G is part of the M6 series...

The M71 Anti-Aircraft Gun is not usable

The M8 Automated Defense System is not usable

The MAC is a huge railgun...

The MAC is listed a SECOND TIME...

The Medusa Missile is only used in one space mission.

The Type-38 Anti-Aircraft Cannon is not usable

On the list for Halo Three, you see something very odd. On Reach's list, there are "weapons" such as the plasma mortar, the light anti-aircraft gun, and the MG460 Automatic Grenade Launcher. Now, what do these all have in common? They are all mounted on vehicles. Halo three's list includes no vehicle mounted weapons, even though it has things like plasma mortars and vulcan aa turrets. This shows that this list is inaccurate, and when I subtract the weapons that are not usable and the vehicle mounted weapons that appear in both games, there ends up being 28 weapons. That sounds familiar huh? I have shown that this point is invalid.


Now, onto vehicles. Halo three has these vehicles:

The Wraith
The Warthog
The Scorpion
The Prowler
The Mongoose
Two variants of the Hornet
The Ghost
The Gauss Warthog
The Elephant
The Chopper
The Banshee

This totals to 11 vehicles.

Let us look at Reach:


6 Echo 2 (Not Drivable)

Anchor 9 (Not Drivable

Cart (This is a weaponless vehicle in a contained area, but I will count

it)

D77-TC Pelican (Not Drivable)

Heavy Orbital Insertion Pod (Not Drivable)

HuCiv HC1500 (This is a weaponless vehicle in a contained area, but I

will count it)

M12 Force Application Vehicle (The Warthog as in Halo Three)

M12G1 Light Anti-Armor Vehicle (The Gauss Hog as in Halo Three)

M12R Light Anti-Aircraft Vehicle

Ultra-Light All-Terrain Vehicle (The Mongoose as in Halo Three)

M808B Main Battle Tank (The Scorpion as in Halo Three)

M831 Troop Transport (Used in a cutscene)

Orbital Insertion Pod (Not drivable)

S-2 Traxus Cargo Transporter (This is a weaponless vehicle in a

contained area, but I will count it)

Spade

Tractor unit (The HuCiv HC1500 above)

Type-32 Rapid Assault Vehicle (The Ghost as in Halo Three)

Type-47 Ultra Heavy Assault Platform (AI controlled)

Type-48 Light Assault Gun Carriage

UNSC Savannah (Not Drivable)

Wraith (As in Halo Three)

That is a total of nine vehicles, not counting the pointless civvie vehicles.


Multiplayer

"Most of the popular concepts; IE Forge, capture the flag, team slayer, team swat, rumble pit, lone wolves, are all included in the new game as well. " Game types like Action Sack and Team Snipers were not included. I concede that there were more TOTAL game types, but I stand by my opinion that H3 has BETTER game types.

"In addition to this, there are also Several new maps including but not limited too:
Boardwalk, Boneyard, Countdown, Powerhouse, Reflection, Spire, Sword Base, Zealot, The Cage, Pinnacle, Asylum, Hemorrhage, and Paradiso."

In total, with map packs, there are 23 maps in Reach [1]. Halo Three has 24 maps. [2]
This point is negated.

" Also we cannot forget about the special player apps including: holograms, Invisibility, energy shielding, limited power blocking, etc.
None of these fun additions are included in the Halo 3 game as a frequent RB ability."
These armor abilities took away from the skill and fun of the game, as a noob spawning with armor lock can instantly become invincible. You are overlooking the fact that there are items called equipment in Halo Three, which you had to pick up around the map. This puts more of an emphasis on key points and map control. Here is a list of equipment: Active camouflage
Overshield
Bubble Shield
Power Drain
Trip Mine
Portable Grav Lift
Radar Jammer
Flare
Regenerator
Deployable Cover

Storyline

"Not only is the game superior in it's gameplay, but it also has amazing graphics, fun cut scenes, and an awesome story line to play by. "
I would argue that the gun and player models look better on H3, but this is a pointless subjective matter. Cut scenes are also in H3 (Refer to video) The storyline in H3 is purely awesome, as Master Chief averts the activation of EVERY halo in the universe, which would result in ALL life being destroyed. He has to deal with the Flood, the Prophet of Truth, and the whole covenant defense force.

I feel like I have successfully debunked Pro's arguments, and would urge a CON vote. I would like to thank Tuf for this debate!
Debate Round No. 2
TUF

Pro

I thank my opponent for his quick response.

I will be going over my case only, I guess, as my opponent has not made any arguments of his own.

****MY CASE****

C1: GAMEPLAY


SUB A: Weapons and vehicles

My opponent says that since several of the weapons used in reach are only one time use weapons, they should not count. This is an incredibly horrid argument. The one level in the game where a lot of these weapons are used, can subjectively be stated to be more fun than the entire halo 3 game. The level takes place is sub space, where players get a first hand experience of stars wars like battle shipping. The guns used are a new experience for players, one that is not experienced in the halo 3 game play. Thus it adds an exceptional playing level to something that players were not able to receive while playing the campaign of Halo 3. In this way Halo Reach exceeds the playing level of that of halo 3.

My opponent then makes the assertion that there is only 28 usable gun in halo reach, which he says is the equivalent to that of halo 3. Even if this were true, which it is not, given that my opponent forgets about purchasable weapons for multi-players, and extra add ons, it still is irrelevant. My opponent made the claim that Halo 3 has more weapons over all than that of Halo Reach. If he concedes even that their is an equal amount, then my opponent is then admitting that he was wrong about the lack thereof, of usable weapons provided in halo reach.

Given that this information is still false, the weapons and features available in halo 3 still succeed that of halo 3, with the additions of several new weapons my opponent did not even attempt to account for.

http://www.bungie.net...

My opponent also admits that a wide variety of new vehicles being present in halo Reach, is an additional gameplay feature not included in halo 3. This, by my opponents own standards, proves that halo Reach contains more quality than that of Halo 3.

Vehicles, weapons, NPC's, gameplay options, can all be sourced and verified here:
http://halo.wikia.com...

Which reference a total of 28 vehicles.

Also let us note that my opponent has not attempted to prove how these vehicles are any better, superior, or contain more quality than that of Halo Reach's vehicles. Why might you ask? It is simply because the statement would be untrue if made. Bungie added a bunch of cool new features to the weapons and vehicles, thus improving the quality of all gameplay aspects in the drawing of halo reach.

SUB B: Multiplayer


"Game types like Action Sack and Team Snipers were not included. I concede that there were more TOTAL game types, but I stand by my opinion that H3 has BETTER game types."

First of all I am confused about my opponents statement on there being no team snipers game mode in halo reach. On the game I have, the team sniper option is readily available.

http://www.bungie.net...

Action sack is also included. See video 1. (basically the same thing)



"In total, with map packs, there are 23 maps in Reach [1]. Halo Three has 24 maps. [2]
This point is negated."

First of all this is false.

Where are the sources for these statements?

If you are talking regular maps you are incorrect. The main maps have variations of them imprinted into different play styles, yet they are still the same map...

Either way the quality of the maps on halo reach far exceed those of the maps that are displayed on Halo 3.

Halo Reach offers differences, new locations to hide less spots for players to sit and camp, and spurs more spontaneous movement and constant running. A player cannot really sit and camp in one area without the risk of being flanked, sniped, sworded, etc from his hind site. Where as there were a lot of bugs in Halo 3 game where players were able to manipulate maps and glitch themselves into un-killable positions, making multi-player unfair to others. Especially the zombie feature in gridlock, where a player could sneak themselves underneath a stair case, and shot gun down any foe who attempted to kill them.

There were many of the errors in the halo 3 multi-player game that dis-advantaged other players and decreased the over all quality of the multi-player aspect.

Halo Reach proudly can claim to have resolved most unfair gameplay bugs that were found within the first few weeks of the games release.
http://www.giantbomb.com...

Last but not be equipable items, vs Start out abilities.

My opponent makes a fine point of how players searching for items rather than already having them is more fair. I detest however.

When A player spawns, having to search for items can be challenging and unfair for several reasons.
1. Being the common occurrence of spawn killing. Sometimes player with X equipped items can quickly use them on players who spawned, not giving them enough reaction time to actually pursue these items.

2. Searching for items can be detrimental, as players can travel to a certain point in the map, only to find the Items is gone, or that action as been moved to one spot on the map, trying to fight over that one items. Giant action clusters rather than strategically seek and kill plots ruin fun for the players.

3. Having all players start out with an item of their choice makes the game more fair to each player, as they can attribute which app they use, and how it works, is dependable on the player.


"These armor abilities took away from the skill and fun of the game, as a noob spawning with armor lock can instantly become invincible."

This is not true however. In fact, in my opinion, the armor lock is the worst ability. Armor lock temporarily avoids the inevitable, as once it wears of a quick punch to death the will finish someone off. The only time it is ever helpful, is if you have a buddy nearby that can come to your rescue. The armor lock is far from invincible, and is incredibly fallible.

C2: STORYLINE


"I would argue that the gun and player models look better on H3, but this is a pointless subjective matter. Cut scenes are also in H3 (Refer to video) The storyline in H3 is purely awesome, as Master Chief averts the activation of EVERY halo in the universe, which would result in ALL life being destroyed. He has to deal with the Flood, the Prophet of Truth, and the whole covenant defense force."

I would have to agree that the cut scenes in halo 3 are particularly cool, and I do happen to like the story line. My attempt in this debate is to prove that Reach's is better however.

Unless you have read or researched the halo time line and story line, most people do not know of the plot in which happens before the halo saga. The Halo reach game play steers away from the generals and provides an in depth look at what happens before all that stuff. The explanatory process of the position the humans were in against the covenant, etc.

The level that takes place in deep space, and the following anti-gravity chambers were an awesome game add in development also which took players on a whole new level of gameplay.

The character details, and strengths in which are adhered to in Halo Reach are phenomenal. Even at the end of halo Reach on legendary, there is a pretty fun extra gameplay variant, where you get to play as a lone survivor against hordes of enemy covenant.
The graphics, the weapons, the experience, is all significantly increases in the Reach gameplay.

****CONCLUSION****

I feel I have won this debate for the following reasons.

SOURCES: I have provided a plethora of sources, while my opponent has offered merely a single you tube video.

ARGUMENTS: I have made and defended my own case, fulfilling the BOP, while my opponent has not made his own contentions.



I thank the viewers for reading this debate.


VOTE PRO.



bossyburrito

Con

The timer is almost up and my opponent is offline, so I will just post my argument in a Google Doc. I understand if this loses the conduct point for me.
https://docs.google.com...
Debate Round No. 3
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by bossyburrito 4 years ago
bossyburrito
Sure.
Posted by OberHerr 4 years ago
OberHerr
No one even brought up Forge or FF?
Posted by OberHerr 4 years ago
OberHerr
Christ man, I wish I could have been Pro.........or Con.

Wouldn't have cared which. Wanna re-debate this BB?
Posted by Maikuru 4 years ago
Maikuru
Nice.
Posted by bossyburrito 4 years ago
bossyburrito
Funny enough, I did tell ober about this :P
Posted by vmpire321 4 years ago
vmpire321
i read most of the debate, but I haven't actually played either of the games..

go msg Ober >.<
Posted by bossyburrito 4 years ago
bossyburrito
Also, I think Forge would have been better if the aesthetic of the game wasn't so lifeless.
Posted by bossyburrito 4 years ago
bossyburrito
Everything in Reach just seemed... dull.
Posted by SuperiorArsenal 4 years ago
SuperiorArsenal
From a gameplay point of view, Halo:Reach surpasses Halo 3. The weapons sound better and feel better. It is also more refined graphically and mechanically. Firefight and the improved Forge are well worth noting.

However, from a story/canon view point, Halo 3 takes the cake. Playing as NOBLE 6 just doesn't feel the same or as important as being Master Chief, or even The Rookie. Halo: Reach is also considered to be a major "canon breaker." It almost appears as though Bungie created the game without reading their own books, especially "Halo: The Fall of Reach." This is very odd, because they are about the same thing, yet Halo:Reach grossly contradicts Halo:The Fall of Reach on many key things, even down to the date of the invasion. Halo 3 expanded upon the Halo story, in very good ways, while Halo:Reach largely "broke" an existing piece of the timeline.
Posted by bossyburrito 4 years ago
bossyburrito
It was quite fun :D
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by OberHerr 4 years ago
OberHerr
TUFbossyburritoTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: I think this debate would have been more interesting if the argument had been over the quality, as opposed to the quanity. However, that is what happened, and Pro esssentially automatically wins because of thsi, as shown by the greater number of weapons/vehicles/game modes/options/ect.
Vote Placed by TheOrator 4 years ago
TheOrator
TUFbossyburritoTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Strangely enough the debate boiled down to the amount of weapons and vehicles needed, and Reach has far more than 3
Vote Placed by Maikuru 4 years ago
Maikuru
TUFbossyburritoTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro provided a handful of categories by which we were apparently judging quality and Con simply nit-picked these areas. I'm not sure why the number of weapons or vehicles is relevant as quality of gameplay is never really argued on by either side. However, by agreeing to these elements as reasonable barometers of quality, Con is doomed. Reach contained more weapons, a greater variety of game types in single and multiplayer, and a unique story line. Arguments to Pro.