The Instigator
TheConservativeSocialist
Con (against)
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The Contender
TheWaywardWriter
Pro (for)
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The "Gender Wage Gap" is a Myth

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/26/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 665 times Debate No: 93126
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
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TheConservativeSocialist

Con

In this debate, I will be arguing that the Gender Wage Gap is NOT a myth and that it is real.

Definitions:

Gender Wage Gap: When females make significantly less money in an occupation(s) than their male counterparts. In America, there was supposedly a gender wage gap of 21% in the year 2015. (http://www.iwpr.org...)

FIRST ROUND: Acceptance
SECOND ROUND: Arguments
THIRD ROUND: Rebuttals
FOURTH ROUND: Conclusion

Good luck!
TheWaywardWriter

Pro

I accept your debate. Good luck to you as well. Now, let us hear Con's argument.
Debate Round No. 1
TheConservativeSocialist

Con

In the United States, the Gender Wage Gap is not only a real occurrence; it is a real issue.

FIRST POINT: The Census Bureau verifies the existence of the Gender Wage Gap.

http://www.census.gov...

This link, taken from the website of the Census Bureau shows that in virtually every occupation, including those where women make up 80% of workers, women make significantly less money. This means that even in an occupation where women outnumber males four to one, men still make more. That's the very definition of the Gender Wage Gap, thus proving (using a government source) that it exists.

SECOND POINT: People on both sides of the political spectrum agree that the Gender Wage Gap exists.

"When you short-change women, you short-change families and you short-change America."
-Hillary Clinton, Democrat (former. First Lady, former. Secretary of State, former. Senator, and 2016 Presidential Candidate)

"We must pass pay equity for women workers."
-Bernie Sanders, Democrat/Independent (Senator, former 2016 Presidential Candidate)

"Women should have absolute access to capital. If they do the same job, they should get the same pay."
-Donald Trump, Republican (Businessman, 2016 Presidential Candidate)

"We do know that women don't always get compensated fairly and that we can do more."
-Carly Fiorina, Republican (Former CEO of Hewlett-Packard, Former Senate Candidate, Former 2016 Presidential Candidate)

THIRD POINT: The cause of the Gender Wage Gap is the seniority system.

The seniority system pays more to workers who spend more time working rather than awarding performance. Women are more likely to spend more time at home or with the family than their male counterparts, and thus are paid less. Most occupations use the seniority system. Carly Fiorina explains this very well in her book, "Rising to the Challenge: My Leadership Journey".

Here's a quote from the chapter titled. "What Women Want":
"The single greatest impediment to equal pay for equal work is the seniority system, which pays not on merit and not on performance, but on time and grade. "The federal government can lead this charge by dismantling its seniority system"a system that rewards employees for time in grade, not for merit, performance or hard work. ... And who is it who supports the seniority system? Unions, government bureaucracies, the very constituencies that Hillary Clinton and the Democratic Party represent and which support them."

I have proven the existence of the Gender Wage Gap by providing evidence of income inequality sourced from the Census Bureau, as well as by quoting individuals of different political ideologies and exposing the source of the Gender Wage Gap itself. I now turn the argument over to Pro.
TheWaywardWriter

Pro

Gender wage gap does not exist. It only seems like women are being paid lower. But, when discussing these types of issues, we should not just look at them at a surface level. We should dig deeper and find the root cause. Now, gender wage gap does not exist when both man and woman have the same job. In your argument, you state that women don't always get compensated fairly. Let's look at the main reason why women make significantly less money. Assuming that you were taught this as a child, the role of a woman, in terms of biology and primal human behavior, is to give birth to children (to prevent the human race from extinction) and take care of these offsprings. Because of this, women spend less time than men on labor and more on ensuring the welfare of their children. Inherently, higher-paying jobs require more time, effort and possibly more skill. Women have a tendency to have lower-paying jobs not because they lack skill (and perhaps effort), but rather time, which is spent in taking care of their kids. They were just created that way.

Just because women outnumber males 4 to 1 doesn't mean that all their caregiving responsibilities have gone up in smoke. As for the seniority system, it has been already undeniably implemented. It is not sure whether it is a fault or a strength of the government, but labor has been measured by time and grade. The seniority system, I presume, was invented because, let's face it, not all people are talented or have the potential to be or do something phenomenal enough. Like most in the federal government, one of their main purposes is to achieve equality. The most neutral standpoint is time, with which hard work has a close interrelationship.

I have proven that Gender Wage Gap is merely an illusion, which, therefore, ceases to be an existence.

It is now Con's turn to make a rebuttal.
Debate Round No. 2
TheConservativeSocialist

Con

Thank you.

"It only seems like women are being paid lower."
It doesn't only seem like it; women are paid less than men in virtually every occupation, as proven by the Census Bureau.

"Gender wage gap does not exist when both man and woman have the same job."
Actually, in a workplace that uses the seniority system, it does. The man will be paid more because he puts in more time, the very definition of the seniority system. There's the gender wage gap.

"The role of the woman... is to give birth to children and take care of these offsprings."
Being paid less for the same work and the same effort is justified by "primal human behavior"? We've entered a time where many primal human behaviors are now obsolete or have evolved.. If a woman can take a job and perform above or at the same level as a man, she should be fairly compensated. People should be paid based on performance, not time. The seniority system is unfairly biased towards males and must be replaced.

"Not all people are talented or have the potential to be or do something phenomenal."
That's not what I mean by a performance-based pay system. I mean that if someone takes a job and works hard at it and performs well, they should be fairly compensated despite gender or time put in. I'm not saying that everyone can become a millionaire or win a Nobel Peace Prize, I'm saying that everyone can find something that they're good at, pursue a career that somehow implements it, and be paid for their work rather than their time.

"Hard work has a close interrelationship [with time.]"
That's true in some cases, but mostly for those that involve you being on top or starting your own business. A CEO who puts in more time is likely working harder than one who does not put in as much. But in occupations where you work for someone, that's not always the case. Some people may be able to do a job with the same skill at half the time of someone else. If a mechanic finishes working on a car faster than another mechanic and both cars are in the same condition, by your logic, the one who spent more time should be paid more because, well, they were there longer.

"I have proven the Gender Wage Gap is merely an illusion."
Not quite. You added to my seniority system argument and gave me the reason why the seniority system causes the wage gap: because a woman is more likely to spend more time at home caring for her children. You verified the existence of the seniority system and praised it, claiming that more time equals better work, yet that is not the case. Basically, the ideas you presented in the argument reflect my own; you extended my seniority system argument and then praised the seniority system rather than arguing against the existence of the wage gap.

It is time to pay women fairly for their work by replacing the seniority system with one that awards performance. When we do, the quality of tertiary sector work will increase and our women, who are unable to spend optimal time at work, will be fairly compensated. Now for Pro's rebuttal.
TheWaywardWriter

Pro

Thank you. I also apologize for taking so long because of schoolwork. Now, it is time for my rebuttal...

You are right, I have phrased my ideas wrongly. Gender pay gap does exist, but, as the quotes you have used imply that it does exist because of injustice between the genders, you are wrong in that sense.

"The man will be paid more because he puts in more time, the very definition of the seniority system. There's the gender wage gap."

Yes, in that case, it is true. But what if the woman has had more time input than the man himself and thus is paid more? Now there"s the wage gap. But it is by all means not determined by which gender is more inferior. Before, women have had been discriminated, the other gender having thought of them as weaker. However, nowadays, society"s general view of women have changed incredibly, much thanks to the infamous movement of feminism.

https://www.whitehouse.gov...

http://www.kansascity.com...

https://www.americanprogress.org...

"We've entered a time where many primal human behaviors are now obsolete or have evolved."

Many primal human behaviors are still intact today, and one of them is giving birth to offspring, which, I presume you know, is the role of the woman. I don't know where you got the idea where primal human behaviors have become completely obsolete. That is entirely false.

https://hbr.org...

"I mean that if someone takes a job and works hard at it and performs well, they should be fairly compensated despite gender or time put in."

Again, a common mistake. People blindly accuse that there is a wage gap merely because of gender discriminations. You might argue that gender pay gap is not at all about that, but rather it is merely a pay gap between the two genders. But, like many, that oversimplifies things. Men and women have different roles. Let's face it. That's why there are two genders. If not, then I ask you what is the purpose of having so. I agree with you that they should be fairly compensated despite the time input, but how do you think hard work can be accurately (or at least close to it) measured in a way that they would be paid accordingly to their efforts?

"I'm saying that everyone can find something that they're good at, pursue a career that somehow implements it, and be paid for their work rather than their time."

Well, not everyone can do that. Sadly. As I've made clear earlier, the seniority system has already been applied. It's a fixed variable. I don"t think you (nor I) are able to eradicate it when it is convenient for women. Yes, you are correct in a sense that the seniority system is a main cause of gender pay gap. However, you also believe that gender pay gap exists wholly because of gender discrimination. I say that there are many factors to it, one of which is the female role which I have already expounded on in my previous argument.

"If a mechanic finishes working on a car faster than another mechanic and both cars are in the same condition, by your logic, the one who spent more time should be paid more because, well, they were there longer."

By my logic, the mechanic who finishes who finishes making repairs on the car should be paid more due to his obvious higher level of proficiency. I agree with you as well. But it is not ultimately up to me to obliterate the seniority system. I am just saying that the seniority system works that way. But what I am concerned with, as I have been reiterating throughout this whole rebuttal, is that you seem to think that gender discrimination is the sole cause of gender wage gap.

"You extended my seniority system argument and then praised the seniority system rather than arguing against the existence of the wage gap."

I did not and still don"t praise the seniority system. I argue not on the physical existence of the wage gap, but why it exists. I wonder how much times I have to repeat this.

"It is time to pay women fairly for their work by replacing the seniority system with one that awards performance."

Women are being paid fairly. I am sure that you know that the wage gap has increasingly closed up in the past decades, and the problem of gender discrimination is being more actively addressed in this era. There are several cases wherein women are actually offered equal amount of salary, but they refuse to accept it as they are simply more understanding than most of their male counterparts. In a family, traditionally, it is a man's role to work for the income and to provide for the family. It is not the utmost priority for the woman to work for the income. Rather, in most cases, it is for the career. Like I said before, there are many factors that contribute to gender pay gap. Most of us have been raised by a culture where men go for jobs that are related to sciences and law while women have a tendency to go for ones without. It"s all in human behavior, really. The gender pay gap is not fueled by discrimination, but rather in differences in cultures (which, uncannily, might lead to narrow-minded people to discrimination).

In fact, unmarried women get higher pay than unmarried men.

http://www.businessinsider.com...

http://www.wsj.com...

Now, for Con's conclusion.
Debate Round No. 3
TheConservativeSocialist

Con

Thank you.

I think it's unfair for a man (or woman) to enter a workplace, spend more time yet not as much effort, and be paid more. In America, as I've said before, women earn significantly less than men in virtually every industry - including those where 80% of workers are female. http://www.census.gov......

I'm not saying discrimination is directly involved or that all employers are insane misogynists. I'm saying that the system they use to pay workers is inevitably discriminatory towards women, especially those with families. When I said 'primal human behaviors', I was referring to the idea that the man works and the woman stays home and cares for the children. As a Conservative, I like this traditional family style, however, I don't think it's right that the woman who decides to work should be paid less because they don't put in as much time - they should be paid based on the quality and effort of their work. That's the wage gap, and that's the solution to it.

I'd like to thank you for this debate which I have really enjoyed. And now for Pro's conclusion.
TheWaywardWriter

Pro

TheWaywardWriter forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by TheConservativeSocialist 1 year ago
TheConservativeSocialist
Jam_ Man - The wage gap may focus on averages, however, on average, women make less than men in virtually every occupation. Look at the link I posted from the Census Bureau that shows income by gender specific jobs/industries. Even in jobs where 80% of workers are female, men make more money.

bballcrook21 - The presidential candidates were used, not for their opinions, but for their acknowledgement of the gender wage gap despite having opposing political ideologies. Clinton, Sanders, Trump, and Fiorina have all discussed the wage gap At multiple campaign rallies, Clinton and Sanders have brought up not only the wage gap between men and women, but also the wage gaps between races and classes. Trump spoke on the wage gap during a Q&A in Manchester, New Hampshire when he received a question regarding equal pay and abortion. Fiorina wrote about the wage gap in her book, "Rising to the Challenge". There's an entire chapter dedicated to women.

MasterDebator99 - I stated that the wage gap was the result of the seniority system; I did not say anything whatsoever about discrimination. A woman who has the same education and works as hard as a man SHOULD make more money, however, they don't; this is because they generally do not spend as much time in the workplace and they're being paid based on how much time they put in. We must replace this system with one the awards performance. If you need more evidence of the wage gap, I suggest you look at the Census Bureau link.

Thank you all for your comments.
Posted by MasterDebator99 1 year ago
MasterDebator99
Very rarely there is a wage gap between genders because of discrimination. Ideally, a women that has the same degree and works as hard as a man in the same position should earn the same amount. Gender wage gap debates are a waste of time and shouldn't be bothered with.
Posted by bballcrook21 1 year ago
bballcrook21
I can say without a doubt that quoting 4 presidential candidates on the wage gap, especially when one of them didn't even mention it, is not an argument at all.
Posted by Jam_Man 1 year ago
Jam_Man
You do realize that the idea that the "wage gap" is real has been debunked many times due to the fact that it focuses on the "average" of all women and men's jobs. That isn't exactly fair as it doesn't show specific wages for specific jobs. Also, I'm not going to debate you on this because it is pointless to debate an already un-debatable topic.
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