The Instigator
ollie342
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
Ore_Ele
Con (against)
Winning
11 Points

The Germans should have waited to invade russia in World War II

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Ore_Ele
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/19/2011 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,758 times Debate No: 14430
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (13)
Votes (3)

 

ollie342

Pro

The early invasion of Russia by Germany in 1941 was the beginning of the end for the Germans. Though the peak of their military power would be realized in 1942, this invasion and the Russian's fighting spirt would prove to bring a swift end to the "Thousand Year Reich".
Ore_Ele

Con

Since this is 5 rounds, we do have some rounds to kill. I will ask my opponent to clarify when he believes the German's ought to have invaded Russia. Since the resolution is that they invaded too soon, the option of not invading is not really allowed, but if my opponent wishes to argue that, that would be okay as well.

Thank you,
Debate Round No. 1
ollie342

Pro

I am not arguing as to a specific date for the invasion of Russia because that would have depended on how the war would have gone if they had not, which we can never really know. However, I do believe they should have invaded Russia after they defeated England (by defeated I do mean by either invasion or signing a treaty to end fighting.) After this had happened, the opportune time to invade Russia would have been at the end of the winter in the year which they planned to do so.
Ore_Ele

Con

I contend that Germany should not have waited to invade Russia, as they had no benefitial alternative as 1941 began to roll around. Mikhail Meltyukhov, a russian historian, has done a study on the offensive plan of Stalin during WWII, called "Stalin's Missed Chance." The study is backed by thousands of confidential files that show that Stalin and the other leaders of the Red Army were planing on invading Germany as soon as the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact ended in June of 1941.

These confidential files show that Russia was massing their troops and building up their troop strength to launch the invasion. The fact that the soviets outnumbered the germans by nearly 9:1 in tanks and 4.5:1 in planes, as well as in artillery and infantry, shows that an offensive strike would overwhelm the Germany army, which was designed on offense, not defense.

Victor Suvorov, a former soviet spy (defected to the UK in 1978) aslo brough knowledge about the USSR's offensive desires against Germany. While most russian historians that know anything about the inner workings of Russia at the time agree that Stalin was not going to let Germany take over Europe, he holds the belief that Russia was actually planning this from the very beginning. Allowing Germany to run amouk, and wear down the capitalist nations, and have the USSR step in at the end of the day and be the hero and make communism look all cool (too bad the US did a better job at that).

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
ollie342

Pro

ollie342 forfeited this round.
Ore_Ele

Con

I will go ahead and extend my arguments and await my opponent's response.

thank you.
Debate Round No. 3
ollie342

Pro

ollie342 forfeited this round.
Ore_Ele

Con

I has a sad. :(
Debate Round No. 4
ollie342

Pro

ollie342 forfeited this round.
Ore_Ele

Con

Well, I still stand by my assertion that the Germans could not have waited to invade Russia, since the Russians were preparing to invade Germany.

Also, the Bills are totally gonna win the Superbowl.
Debate Round No. 5
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ore_Ele 6 years ago
Ore_Ele
I already mentioned that the German's couldn't wait because the Russians were preparing to attack them.

If anything, they should have tried to ally with Poland and used Poland as a buffer against Russia. Then pushed to take the oil in the middle east and when they were finally ready to attack Russia (only after taking down Britian, which would take time). By taking the middle east, Germany could provide Japan with oil, so that Japan wouldn't have attacked the US.

Germany could then have done a two prong attack on Stalingrad. One from the West, and another from the South, thus allowing it to take the oil fields of Russia and starve out their machinery. After that, another two prong attack, this time on Leningrad (still from the West and South again).

There would be a risk that the Russians would launch a counter offensive against from Leningrad (while the Germans were attacking Stalingrad) by pushing through Poland. This is where the Polish army just tries to act like mud and slow the Russians down, and wait for the cut off from oil to end their front.
Posted by ASB 6 years ago
ASB
even if the german army was not designed for defense, they were defintely not designed for the winter.
The germans should've waited.
Posted by ASB 6 years ago
ASB
i should vote against u just because u said bills will win
Posted by Ore_Ele 6 years ago
Ore_Ele
Yes, but given enough time, they most likely would have eventually gotten it. I think, what ultimately would have happened (assuming that Germany and England hit a stalemate against each other), is that there would be a coup against Hitler, and someone that knew war better then him would have taken over and probably done better with the nuclear program, not to mention better use of the jet planes as fighters, rather then bombers.
Posted by Cerebral_Narcissist 6 years ago
Cerebral_Narcissist
Well there is conflicting information but it is commonly claim that the Nazi nuclear program was an absolute failure. They made a fatal mistake with one of their calculations and were ultimately subsumed into the propaganda ministry.

But yea, he really needed nukes.
Posted by Ore_Ele 6 years ago
Ore_Ele
Well, don't forget the Hitler was working on nuclear weapons. I'm sure that if he attached a nuclear war head to a V2 rocket. It wouldn't take too many of those to bring England to her knees.
Posted by Cerebral_Narcissist 6 years ago
Cerebral_Narcissist
Germany had no chance to defeat Britain, it could not bomb us into submission and did not have the troop transports for a real invasion. Given this fact the victory Hitler wanted was already impossible.
Posted by Ore_Ele 6 years ago
Ore_Ele
What western allies? England, which was 99% defensive? France, which was 99% defeated? Or the USA, which didn't get directly involved until over 1 year after Russia began to push German back on its own?
Posted by ollie342 6 years ago
ollie342
I believe you are overestimating the ammount of correlation between Russia and the western allies before the German invasion of Russia
Posted by Ore_Ele 6 years ago
Ore_Ele
Germany was doomed when they attacked Polland and allowed Russia to become their next door neighbor. You always want a few houses between you and the crazies.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by quarterexchange 6 years ago
quarterexchange
ollie342Ore_EleTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: forfeit, and Con had sources
Vote Placed by ASB 6 years ago
ASB
ollie342Ore_EleTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:34 
Vote Placed by Ore_Ele 6 years ago
Ore_Ele
ollie342Ore_EleTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:01